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Author Topic:   Varnish Advice

cc13 posted 06-04-2012 11:53 AM ET (US)
I am going to varnish the hatches, gunnel rails, and console doors on a classic 22 Outrage. The boat stays outside and exposed to the elements. I have been trying to keep it up by cleaning and oiling. The weathering outruns my efforts. I'm going to go in a different direction.
Thus far, all I have done is to scrub everything with Starbrite teak cleaner. Right now, the wood is clean but has a sorta dull, blah, look. I have not yet applied Step 2, the Starbrite oxalic acid teak brightener.
Do I need to apply the brightener?
What should I use to wipe off any oil residue from the surface?
Should I do anything else to it before sanding and varnishing?
Some people say staining is a matter of preference. I don't have enough knowledge to know whether I have a preference.
Will the varnish alone bring back the deep, wet tone?
I'm going to apply 50-50 for two coats and then move to less/no dilution with foam brushed.
Thanks to all for your advise.
macfam posted 06-04-2012 04:07 PM ET (US)
I think many coats of varnish on mahogany is beautiful, but, I have never been a big fan of varnishing teak.
Have you considered Cetol? I had used it for years on teak that was exposed to salt and sun, and it held up better than anything I had ever used. After the first season, it was always a quick light sanding and a re-coat, and it was good for another season.
See this link:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search. do?freeText=sikkens&page=GRID&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=cetol
Attached is a pic of our 1988 Revenge WT at the END of the season. The teak still looks great!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/macfam/vnydhvndock2.jpg
tnltracy posted 06-04-2012 06:33 PM ET (US)
Second on Cetol. Look up my recent post on teak refurbish there's links in there to before/ after. Second boat I've used on and it holds up nicely on top of looking great
tnltracy posted 06-04-2012 06:36 PM ET (US)
Link http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/019827.html
L H G posted 06-04-2012 06:37 PM ET (US)
Pretty soon someone will be trying to sell him an Evinrude E-tec!
CC13 - Search around this website. There are a lot of articles on varnishing teak.
cc13 posted 06-04-2012 06:48 PM ET (US)
I've done a good bit of searching around. I'm not even clear on what is teak and what is mahogany. It seems to vary by model, year, and placement. Anyway, I have already ordered the varnish. I found seemingly reliable sources saying that teak, with proper prep, can be varnished. That's what I'm doing. I just want to be sure I give it the best chance of success. Any answers to my questions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
macfam posted 06-04-2012 08:24 PM ET (US)
Larry,
We already sold him an E-TEC!
cc13 posted 06-05-2012 03:01 AM ET (US)
Three whalers and three yamahas here. I'm true to my boats and engines!
andygere posted 06-05-2012 12:47 PM ET (US)
Varnish is also subject to UV degradation, but when the varnish fails, it's harder to bring back because is has to be removed mechanically. No matter the finish (oil, varnish or Cetol) get a full cover. You will protect the finish, the gelcoat, your upholstery and spend more time using your boat, and less time maintaining it. FWIW, I'm a teak oil guy because I think varnish is too fragile for a boat that gets fished. I do have a full mooring cover, and haven't touched the teak on my Outrage Cuddy since last year, and it looks great.
L H G posted 06-05-2012 05:34 PM ET (US)
Since no one here has really helped you with varnishing information, here is what I do in a condensed version:
1. Forget the cleaner - Sand wood clean so there is no raised grain, using 3M Sandblaster 100 and 150 paper.
2. Convert Whaler's countersunk fastener details to pan head screws. Holes may need to be pegged and re-drilled first. For trim ring details, put a fender washer under the trim ring so it doesn't cut the varnish skin.
3. Stain (for UV protection and to slow down the yellowing process) with ZAR #120 Teak oil based stain.
It will initially look like you are making the wood too dark, but you're not. The varnish will lighten up quickly, but your wood will not take on the "yellow" look of old varnish.
4. Varnish 10 to 12 coats with Z-Spar FLAGSHIP varnish, using good quality foam brushes, sanding between coats with Sandblaster #320 paper.
Let varnish cure at least two weeks before installing back in boat.
You can see some of my varnish work here by opening some of the boat albums, done as described above.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/
cc13 posted 06-06-2012 03:04 PM ET (US)
Thanks Larry,
Good looking boats you have there. I think I will start with the hatches across the rear of the Outrage with the full transom. Those will be the easiest to do (and un-do) if need be. I love my whalers and the wood when it looks good. But great goodness it's hard to keep up with oiling. The relentless southern sun is a beast.
L H G posted 06-06-2012 04:42 PM ET (US)
For many years I sanded and oiled, sanded and oiled, etc. My wood was getting thin! Varnishing preserves the good look of teak so much better it's not even close if you are in a sun/salt environment. It is much less work atually.
Even after 10 years I had to strip one of the stern deck hatches on my 25 because of some checking, and it is still easier than the repeated sanding and oiling process. Stripping old varnish is not a bad job at all.
I believe you are doing the right thing.
Binkster posted 06-06-2012 05:05 PM ET (US)
Varnishing is not as hard as some make it out to be. Personally I don't like foam brushes. They don't hold enough varnish. I use a good grade blonde bristle brush. Its easy to lay it on and then tip it off. Most amateurs hear that you apply light coats, true, but you need enough varnish to cover the surface. Foam brushes will leave "holidays"(dry spots painter lingo) if you are not careful. Look at the piece at an extreme angle after you have tipped it off,and look for dry spots. Varnish the edge of boards with a "dry" brush so varnish won't run around the corners to the back side.
rich
cc13 posted 06-06-2012 07:48 PM ET (US)
Thanks guys. The varnish and reducer arrived by UPS today. All the way from Rhode Island. Some things they just don't sell in my neck of the woods.
John W posted 06-06-2012 09:19 PM ET (US)
I second LHG's advice, with the following caveats: I prefer to varnish WITHOUT staining. I prefer the lighter look of varnish without stain underneath, and it's what Whaler did on the mahogany (no stain) from the factory. I also prefer Epifanes varnish, and their "wood finish gloss" looks great & is very easy to use..sanding between coats is optional. I've never had problems with varnish yellowing, if it does you've waited too long before recoating.
These pic's were from Jan 2012, the varnish was done in 2005, with three maintenance coats of Epifanes Wood Finish done in early 2010:
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/JohnPW/ Jan%202012%20whaler%20pics/

I have never found teak to be any more difficult to maintain varnish on than mahogany is. I agree with LHG that it's no more work to maintain than oiled wood, IF & ONLY IF you keep it covered when you're not using the boat. Mine has held up great with no maintenance, but I keep it covered religeously when I'm not using the boat.
I use 220 grit paper, with 320 grit sandpaper before the final coat, it will improve the shine of the finished work. do 6 or 8 coats if using thick varnish, more of your varnish is thin.
Good luck!
John
Binkster posted 06-06-2012 10:10 PM ET (US)
Since everyone is showing off their varnish work, here is the interior in my 13 footer I designed, and built from sapele mahogany, and varnished using Pettits Z-Spar Captains varnish, back in '08. Looks just as good today, of course the boat lives in the garage when not in use.
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/ boat%20restorations/Boston%20whaler%2013%20footer/
rich
PeteB88 posted 06-07-2012 03:18 PM ET (US)
Ya, look around on CW we have posted dozens of tech advice on bright finishing. Binkster is exactly right, it's not that difficult if you get the procedure down and understand what you are really doing. It's no mystery. You don't (or I never) go through the crap of progressively finer sandpaper because marine spar varnish is thick and heavy compared to fine furniture finishes. It ain't a Steinway grand piano.
Always remember you should recoat once the finish loses 50% of it's original gloss - that is so easy it's insane, scuff sand (I use 120 commercial paper maybe 150 that's it and usually by hand), wipe off the dust, put a coat on, then another one and that's it unless you are in the groove for more coats. I probably do three.
Remember to "chase" the runs in sags by tipping off until you can no longer do so. Once a run or sag dries, you cannot sand them away - use cabinet maker's scraper. I also agree w/ Rich about natural bristle brushes.
Bare wood oiled with marine oils makes a great base coat. Sometimes I do marine epoxy base coats but old wood must be stripped to bare and made super clean w solvent and rags.
Whaler Mahogany is a joy to work with.
Enjoy the experience
Jkcam posted 06-13-2012 05:22 AM ET (US)
You guys do some beautiful work.
Binkster posted 06-13-2012 06:39 AM ET (US)
To thin varnish without diluting it boil a pot of water and when boiling remove it from the stove and set your can of varnish in the pot of water for a few minutes. The warmed varnish will flow out better when applied to the wood.
rich

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Author	Topic: Varnish Advice
cc13	posted 06-04-2012 11:53 AM ET (US) I am going to varnish the hatches, gunnel rails, and console doors on a classic 22 Outrage. The boat stays outside and exposed to the elements. I have been trying to keep it up by cleaning and oiling. The weathering outruns my efforts. I'm going to go in a different direction. Thus far, all I have done is to scrub everything with Starbrite teak cleaner. Right now, the wood is clean but has a sorta dull, blah, look. I have not yet applied Step 2, the Starbrite oxalic acid teak brightener. Do I need to apply the brightener? What should I use to wipe off any oil residue from the surface? Should I do anything else to it before sanding and varnishing? Some people say staining is a matter of preference. I don't have enough knowledge to know whether I have a preference. Will the varnish alone bring back the deep, wet tone? I'm going to apply 50-50 for two coats and then move to less/no dilution with foam brushed. Thanks to all for your advise.
macfam	posted 06-04-2012 04:07 PM ET (US) I think many coats of varnish on mahogany is beautiful, but, I have never been a big fan of varnishing teak. Have you considered Cetol? I had used it for years on teak that was exposed to salt and sun, and it held up better than anything I had ever used. After the first season, it was always a quick light sanding and a re-coat, and it was good for another season. See this link: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search. do?freeText=sikkens&page=GRID&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=cetol Attached is a pic of our 1988 Revenge WT at the END of the season. The teak still looks great! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/macfam/vnydhvndock2.jpg
tnltracy	posted 06-04-2012 06:33 PM ET (US) Second on Cetol. Look up my recent post on teak refurbish there's links in there to before/ after. Second boat I've used on and it holds up nicely on top of looking great
tnltracy	posted 06-04-2012 06:36 PM ET (US) Link http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/019827.html
L H G	posted 06-04-2012 06:37 PM ET (US) Pretty soon someone will be trying to sell him an Evinrude E-tec! CC13 - Search around this website. There are a lot of articles on varnishing teak.
cc13	posted 06-04-2012 06:48 PM ET (US) I've done a good bit of searching around. I'm not even clear on what is teak and what is mahogany. It seems to vary by model, year, and placement. Anyway, I have already ordered the varnish. I found seemingly reliable sources saying that teak, with proper prep, can be varnished. That's what I'm doing. I just want to be sure I give it the best chance of success. Any answers to my questions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
macfam	posted 06-04-2012 08:24 PM ET (US) Larry, We already sold him an E-TEC!
cc13	posted 06-05-2012 03:01 AM ET (US) Three whalers and three yamahas here. I'm true to my boats and engines!
andygere	posted 06-05-2012 12:47 PM ET (US) Varnish is also subject to UV degradation, but when the varnish fails, it's harder to bring back because is has to be removed mechanically. No matter the finish (oil, varnish or Cetol) get a full cover. You will protect the finish, the gelcoat, your upholstery and spend more time using your boat, and less time maintaining it. FWIW, I'm a teak oil guy because I think varnish is too fragile for a boat that gets fished. I do have a full mooring cover, and haven't touched the teak on my Outrage Cuddy since last year, and it looks great.
L H G	posted 06-05-2012 05:34 PM ET (US) Since no one here has really helped you with varnishing information, here is what I do in a condensed version: 1. Forget the cleaner - Sand wood clean so there is no raised grain, using 3M Sandblaster 100 and 150 paper. 2. Convert Whaler's countersunk fastener details to pan head screws. Holes may need to be pegged and re-drilled first. For trim ring details, put a fender washer under the trim ring so it doesn't cut the varnish skin. 3. Stain (for UV protection and to slow down the yellowing process) with ZAR #120 Teak oil based stain. It will initially look like you are making the wood too dark, but you're not. The varnish will lighten up quickly, but your wood will not take on the "yellow" look of old varnish. 4. Varnish 10 to 12 coats with Z-Spar FLAGSHIP varnish, using good quality foam brushes, sanding between coats with Sandblaster #320 paper. Let varnish cure at least two weeks before installing back in boat. You can see some of my varnish work here by opening some of the boat albums, done as described above. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/
cc13	posted 06-06-2012 03:04 PM ET (US) Thanks Larry, Good looking boats you have there. I think I will start with the hatches across the rear of the Outrage with the full transom. Those will be the easiest to do (and un-do) if need be. I love my whalers and the wood when it looks good. But great goodness it's hard to keep up with oiling. The relentless southern sun is a beast.
L H G	posted 06-06-2012 04:42 PM ET (US) For many years I sanded and oiled, sanded and oiled, etc. My wood was getting thin! Varnishing preserves the good look of teak so much better it's not even close if you are in a sun/salt environment. It is much less work atually. Even after 10 years I had to strip one of the stern deck hatches on my 25 because of some checking, and it is still easier than the repeated sanding and oiling process. Stripping old varnish is not a bad job at all. I believe you are doing the right thing.
Binkster	posted 06-06-2012 05:05 PM ET (US) Varnishing is not as hard as some make it out to be. Personally I don't like foam brushes. They don't hold enough varnish. I use a good grade blonde bristle brush. Its easy to lay it on and then tip it off. Most amateurs hear that you apply light coats, true, but you need enough varnish to cover the surface. Foam brushes will leave "holidays"(dry spots painter lingo) if you are not careful. Look at the piece at an extreme angle after you have tipped it off,and look for dry spots. Varnish the edge of boards with a "dry" brush so varnish won't run around the corners to the back side. rich
cc13	posted 06-06-2012 07:48 PM ET (US) Thanks guys. The varnish and reducer arrived by UPS today. All the way from Rhode Island. Some things they just don't sell in my neck of the woods.
John W	posted 06-06-2012 09:19 PM ET (US) I second LHG's advice, with the following caveats: I prefer to varnish WITHOUT staining. I prefer the lighter look of varnish without stain underneath, and it's what Whaler did on the mahogany (no stain) from the factory. I also prefer Epifanes varnish, and their "wood finish gloss" looks great & is very easy to use..sanding between coats is optional. I've never had problems with varnish yellowing, if it does you've waited too long before recoating. These pic's were from Jan 2012, the varnish was done in 2005, with three maintenance coats of Epifanes Wood Finish done in early 2010: http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/JohnPW/ Jan%202012%20whaler%20pics/ I have never found teak to be any more difficult to maintain varnish on than mahogany is. I agree with LHG that it's no more work to maintain than oiled wood, IF & ONLY IF you keep it covered when you're not using the boat. Mine has held up great with no maintenance, but I keep it covered religeously when I'm not using the boat. I use 220 grit paper, with 320 grit sandpaper before the final coat, it will improve the shine of the finished work. do 6 or 8 coats if using thick varnish, more of your varnish is thin. Good luck! John
Binkster	posted 06-06-2012 10:10 PM ET (US) Since everyone is showing off their varnish work, here is the interior in my 13 footer I designed, and built from sapele mahogany, and varnished using Pettits Z-Spar Captains varnish, back in '08. Looks just as good today, of course the boat lives in the garage when not in use. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/ boat%20restorations/Boston%20whaler%2013%20footer/ rich
PeteB88	posted 06-07-2012 03:18 PM ET (US) Ya, look around on CW we have posted dozens of tech advice on bright finishing. Binkster is exactly right, it's not that difficult if you get the procedure down and understand what you are really doing. It's no mystery. You don't (or I never) go through the crap of progressively finer sandpaper because marine spar varnish is thick and heavy compared to fine furniture finishes. It ain't a Steinway grand piano. Always remember you should recoat once the finish loses 50% of it's original gloss - that is so easy it's insane, scuff sand (I use 120 commercial paper maybe 150 that's it and usually by hand), wipe off the dust, put a coat on, then another one and that's it unless you are in the groove for more coats. I probably do three. Remember to "chase" the runs in sags by tipping off until you can no longer do so. Once a run or sag dries, you cannot sand them away - use cabinet maker's scraper. I also agree w/ Rich about natural bristle brushes. Bare wood oiled with marine oils makes a great base coat. Sometimes I do marine epoxy base coats but old wood must be stripped to bare and made super clean w solvent and rags. Whaler Mahogany is a joy to work with. Enjoy the experience
Jkcam	posted 06-13-2012 05:22 AM ET (US) You guys do some beautiful work.
Binkster	posted 06-13-2012 06:39 AM ET (US) To thin varnish without diluting it boil a pot of water and when boiling remove it from the stove and set your can of varnish in the pot of water for a few minutes. The warmed varnish will flow out better when applied to the wood. rich