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Author Topic:   Exothermic Epoxy Curing Causes Boiling

Downtownfish posted 08-24-2012 10:50 AM ET (US)
Hey guys I am running into major problems using this west system epoxy. I need help from people that know about this stuff, or better yet the ones that have injected it into delamed spot between the foam and the glass. I have been using it to fill all the hols and do other repairs to the boat.
Let me start by saying I am working in south Florida with 90 degree temps even after the sun goes down. I am using west systems 105 epoxy and the 206 slow hardener, which says should be fine in my temp range. My problem is if I fill and holes a 3/8ths or deeper I am getting expansion from the epoxy boiling over when it exothermally kicks off. Since our whalers have a foam coor it is essentially insulating the epoxy and not dissipating the heat which is causing it to boil along with the thickness I am laying it at. I can avoid this by laying thinner pours over several times rather then one thick pour. This only helps in the areas I can do this with.
My concern is with the areas I plan on injecting I don't know how think the voids are that i am going to be filling. They very well could have a greater gap than 3/8th which would cause the epoxy to boil and expand the deck off boat. If this happens it would be more than a bitch to fix.
I know I can go down to the 209 extra slow hardener which I plan on doing which should help, but I am still very concerned that it will boil over. I was also told to keep the epoxy in the AC before I use it to lower the temperature. I have read all over this site about you guys raving about this epoxy, and all I have had is nothing but problems with this stuff. I would like to hear from the poeple who have done similar or that know much more then I do about it. I was also told if I lower the temp in the garage it should also help. I don't see this helping too much as the epoxy is heating up in the thick spots i don't feel like a lower ambient temperature would have and affect since it is producing this heat within the epoxy with not much area for it to actually contact this new lower air temperature. Long question, but I am really looking for answers.
PeteB88 posted 08-24-2012 11:45 AM ET (US)
Your best move is to call West Tech support yourself, those guys know and are some of the best customer service reps in any business. They are seriously experience techs or engineers and are familiar with Boston Whalers.
Toll-Free Phone
866-937-8797
Downtownfish posted 08-24-2012 01:12 PM ET (US)
I have called them several times and you are right they do take the time to talk to you, but in all honesty I don't believe the guy that I always talk to. I told him my situation and he recomended the 209 extra slow hardener. According to their site and literature I should have no problems using the 206 slow when working in 90 degree temps, but I am having more problems then I can handle when using it in these temps. He said the 209 extra slow should work but I have a hard time believing him, when he said th 206 slow would work as well, but it obviously does not and tends to boil over with any gap larger then 3/8ths of an inch.
PeteB88 posted 08-24-2012 02:04 PM ET (US)
I'd call him back and tell him - he might not know and could very well respect the report from the field. In my experience if epoxy gets that hot then for some reason the reaction is going way too fast - perhaps too much hardener or mixing in narrow container will totally fire that reaction to the point where if plastic cup it will melt and smoke. I mix epoxy in as shallow container as possible, even if possible and never pump too much so it is deep as oppose to spread out in liquid form. Good luck
Downtownfish posted 08-24-2012 02:13 PM ET (US)
Yea I did tell him and he said I am pouring it to thick and recomended the 209 and sveral thin layers rather then one big one, but he said there is still the possibility of it boiling over if there is a large void that is being filled. I think the thinner pour would work perfect, but injection I don't think that would work. When injecting I would think you would want to do it all at once instead of several smaller batchs. If I tried the smaller batch method and let the epoxy kick then go back to add more I think it will not flow to all the areas and eventually build up and fill my injection hole before I can completely fill the delamed spot. I am thinking this would happen after a few times and with this method, and it may take 10-15 times to fill the 12 inch by 12 inch area. Also I am mixing it using a scale set to grams which measures down to .1 grams. So I really think the ratio is fine, it is the amount of epoxy that is generating heat and being insulated by the foam. As far as the cups I am using to mix in are about 12 0z and I am only mixing smaller amounts probably no more then a half inch of liquid on the bottom.
crabby posted 08-24-2012 02:48 PM ET (US)
It might help if you posted a few images of exactly what you are trying to accomplish. I have a difficult time envisioning a thick pour of epoxy to fill in delaminations between the foam and the glass, especially so thick as to cause the resin to expand and push out the holes. How much epoxy are you actually pouring in a single shot? Maybe if you are just trying to fill a void you'd be better off using either a two part foam or some foam in a can.
Get some pics posted somewhere and link them here so we can see what you're actually doing.
Downtownfish posted 08-24-2012 03:07 PM ET (US)
Yea I can post photos later when I get home. I have not even attempted to fill any of the delaminated spots yet. I am getting these boil over just filling smaller areas such as last night i ground out some JB weld that one of the previous owners has poured into a hole under the nav light. I got it all out and cleaned up the area. I was left with a large hole about the 1 1/2 inches by 2 inches wide and maybe a half inch deep. I only filled it about half full with epoxy so maybe 2 oz of epoxy total. I guess the spot I am more concered are at the stern on the boat. I don;t know how else to describe the area besides the little half moon shaped area in the stern. Those two spots one on each side are soft and when I drilled into them they seem pretty hallow. This is where I think the epoxy will be very think and boil over.
PeteB88 posted 08-24-2012 03:11 PM ET (US)
You could also resin coat - epoxy coat - some appropriate material and insert or pack it into the void to fill up space then inject the hole to complete the fill. Agree photos would help.
jimh posted 08-24-2012 08:13 PM ET (US)
Solid epoxy resin--of any brand--is not a good filler for large gaps. Typically for gap filling you need to add a filler to the epoxy resin. When epoxy resin is mixed with a filler the problems being reported of too much heat generation in the exothermic cure will go away. When you were advised to seek information from WEST System themselves you received good advice.
PeteB88 posted 08-24-2012 09:52 PM ET (US)
Agree, filler, I use it all the time. I recall someone using epoxy saturated foam or something (some years ago) for something - boat, surfboard, can't recall. If West techs can't help you no one can.
crabby posted 08-25-2012 01:17 PM ET (US)
+2 to the posts by JimH and Pete above.
2 ounces of epoxy may not seem like a large amount but in a small spot it will really heat up. I've never really seen WEST epoxy swell up (and I have had plenty of batches kick off in mixing cups, using 105/205, 105/206, and G-flex; never had one kick off in the cup using 209 as the hardener). Actually I take that back, I nearly started a fire one time when about four ounces kicked off on me and did boil out of the cup one hot evening. I think I've adjusted my work habits since that episode.
Neat epoxy can also be brittle. Mix it with some fillers and then inject it into the holes or use something else to fill the large gaps. Maybe try some six10 (already thickened, comes in a caulking cartridge tube).
If you do multiple pours to fill your big voids try to time them such that the previous pour has not cured fully as the amine blush that forms on the surface may prevent good adhesion between layers.
Powergroove803 posted 08-27-2012 01:10 PM ET (US)
I would try a test sample(1 squirt of resin), and reduce the hardener slightly. If it dries solid in a test batch, and gives you extra potlife, then youre good. I wouldnt necessarily try this on a test spot on or in the boat as there is nothing worse than uncured epoxy resin.
I use the slow hardener here in S carolina in the summer and will frequently see it smoing and have about 5 minutes of pot life when used in the sun on a 95 degree day, which is typical. Fortunately I have not been doing big jobs, so my pot life can be short.
ConB posted 08-27-2012 01:40 PM ET (US)
Never deviate from the manufacturers mixing ratios when using epoxy.
Con
PeteB88 posted 08-27-2012 03:38 PM ET (US)
Exactly Con - must be obsessive about mixing ratios
ToneDef posted 08-27-2012 09:41 PM ET (US)
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but I would HIGHLY recommend using West System's mini pump set. It includes separate sized pumps for each component, such as 105, 206, etc. It makes it so your mixing becomes one pump of each component. What have you been mixing it at? You should not be mixing this stuff 1:1.
crabby posted 08-28-2012 08:03 AM ET (US)
The WEST pumps are nice but lately I've been using a small $15 scale purchased online (looks very similar to the one marketed by WEST for over $30). No more problems priming the pumps or counting strokes, and it works great for very small batches.
Downtownfish posted 08-28-2012 09:22 AM ET (US)
Hey guys. Thanks for the advice with everything. As far as the filler I am using 403 filler and still get these boil overs. So that did not help too much. I can add more filler and give it a shot maybe to displace some of the epoxy so it won't heat as much. I also am using a digital scale so I am measureing it by weight to the 5 to 1 ratio that they recommend. As far a packing a material into the delaminated spots would be hard since I don't want to cut large holes into the boat at this time. Here is picture of an area that expanded. This is with 403 filler added to the mix. I poured a thin layer of epoxy on top of the semicured area to give me a smoother finish since when it expanded it created a buch of bumps and chuncks that would have made it tough to lay glass over.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d174/surffla/_DSC0130.jpg
Downtownfish posted 08-28-2012 09:24 AM ET (US)
Crabby, was this the 209 extra slow hardener that you had boil over?
Powergroove803 posted 08-28-2012 11:19 AM ET (US)
I use the mini pumps exclusively and have to say that if any air is in the pump, then your ratio has already been altered. I typically have some air in my hardener, not my resin, so even with the pumps the ratio may not be exact. The mixing guides say "DO NOT attempt to adjust the epoxy cure time by altering the mix ratio. An accurate ratio is essential for a proper cure and full development of physical properties".
Below is a tech sheet for 105 and 206 slow hardener.
20-25 minute pot life at 72 degrees would be great, but at 95-100 degrees my pot life is in the single digits.
I have semi perfected my ratios for my environamental temps, so I dont say alter the ratios without doing some testing, but it certainly can be done with good results(never had a delamination in about 10 years of projects).
Handling characteristics
Mix ratio by volume (300 Mini Pump ratio) · · 5 parts resin : 1 part hardener
by weight · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5.0:1
Mix viscosity (at 72°F) ASTM D-2393 · · · · · · · 725cps
Pot life (100g at 72°F) · · · ·· · · · · · · 20to25minutes
Working time, thin film* ·· · · · · · · · · 90to110minutes
Cure to a solid, thin film*· · · · · · · · · 10to15hours
Cure to working strength · · · · · · · · · · · 1to4days
Minimum recommended temperature· · · · · · · · 60°F (16°C)
*Epoxy cures faster at higher temperatures and in thicker applications
crabby posted 08-28-2012 05:57 PM ET (US)
@ downtown:
I never had the 209 (very slow cure) mix kick off early on me but that is likely because I never used the 209 in large quantities. I honestly can't tell you which mix (105/205 or 105/slow cure) did the serious overheat on me as it was at least two years ago.
I last used 209 two weeks ago in a batch of about 4 ounces in +85 F temps and had no problem wetting out several layers of 1708 and building a small box top.
crabby posted 08-28-2012 06:02 PM ET (US)
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d174/surffla/_DSC0130.jpg

Looks to me as if there is not much filler in the resin, and that is a pretty big hole to be filling with neat resin. I'd be using at a minimum resin with lots of glass fibers along with a bit of some other powdered fillers. A LOT of fibers. You need to make the mix very stiff so it needs to be troweled in (after a little dose of neat resin to wet things out).
Downtownfish posted 08-29-2012 08:14 AM ET (US)
I didn't add enough filler that I had to apply it with a putty knife, but it was thicken quit a bit. It looks much clearer because I poured neat resin on top of it to seal up some areas where it started to get chunky from the expansion. Anyways I know what you are saying that it should be almost a paste.

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Author	Topic: Exothermic Epoxy Curing Causes Boiling
Downtownfish	posted 08-24-2012 10:50 AM ET (US) Hey guys I am running into major problems using this west system epoxy. I need help from people that know about this stuff, or better yet the ones that have injected it into delamed spot between the foam and the glass. I have been using it to fill all the hols and do other repairs to the boat. Let me start by saying I am working in south Florida with 90 degree temps even after the sun goes down. I am using west systems 105 epoxy and the 206 slow hardener, which says should be fine in my temp range. My problem is if I fill and holes a 3/8ths or deeper I am getting expansion from the epoxy boiling over when it exothermally kicks off. Since our whalers have a foam coor it is essentially insulating the epoxy and not dissipating the heat which is causing it to boil along with the thickness I am laying it at. I can avoid this by laying thinner pours over several times rather then one thick pour. This only helps in the areas I can do this with. My concern is with the areas I plan on injecting I don't know how think the voids are that i am going to be filling. They very well could have a greater gap than 3/8th which would cause the epoxy to boil and expand the deck off boat. If this happens it would be more than a bitch to fix. I know I can go down to the 209 extra slow hardener which I plan on doing which should help, but I am still very concerned that it will boil over. I was also told to keep the epoxy in the AC before I use it to lower the temperature. I have read all over this site about you guys raving about this epoxy, and all I have had is nothing but problems with this stuff. I would like to hear from the poeple who have done similar or that know much more then I do about it. I was also told if I lower the temp in the garage it should also help. I don't see this helping too much as the epoxy is heating up in the thick spots i don't feel like a lower ambient temperature would have and affect since it is producing this heat within the epoxy with not much area for it to actually contact this new lower air temperature. Long question, but I am really looking for answers.
PeteB88	posted 08-24-2012 11:45 AM ET (US) Your best move is to call West Tech support yourself, those guys know and are some of the best customer service reps in any business. They are seriously experience techs or engineers and are familiar with Boston Whalers. Toll-Free Phone 866-937-8797
Downtownfish	posted 08-24-2012 01:12 PM ET (US) I have called them several times and you are right they do take the time to talk to you, but in all honesty I don't believe the guy that I always talk to. I told him my situation and he recomended the 209 extra slow hardener. According to their site and literature I should have no problems using the 206 slow when working in 90 degree temps, but I am having more problems then I can handle when using it in these temps. He said the 209 extra slow should work but I have a hard time believing him, when he said th 206 slow would work as well, but it obviously does not and tends to boil over with any gap larger then 3/8ths of an inch.
PeteB88	posted 08-24-2012 02:04 PM ET (US) I'd call him back and tell him - he might not know and could very well respect the report from the field. In my experience if epoxy gets that hot then for some reason the reaction is going way too fast - perhaps too much hardener or mixing in narrow container will totally fire that reaction to the point where if plastic cup it will melt and smoke. I mix epoxy in as shallow container as possible, even if possible and never pump too much so it is deep as oppose to spread out in liquid form. Good luck
Downtownfish	posted 08-24-2012 02:13 PM ET (US) Yea I did tell him and he said I am pouring it to thick and recomended the 209 and sveral thin layers rather then one big one, but he said there is still the possibility of it boiling over if there is a large void that is being filled. I think the thinner pour would work perfect, but injection I don't think that would work. When injecting I would think you would want to do it all at once instead of several smaller batchs. If I tried the smaller batch method and let the epoxy kick then go back to add more I think it will not flow to all the areas and eventually build up and fill my injection hole before I can completely fill the delamed spot. I am thinking this would happen after a few times and with this method, and it may take 10-15 times to fill the 12 inch by 12 inch area. Also I am mixing it using a scale set to grams which measures down to .1 grams. So I really think the ratio is fine, it is the amount of epoxy that is generating heat and being insulated by the foam. As far as the cups I am using to mix in are about 12 0z and I am only mixing smaller amounts probably no more then a half inch of liquid on the bottom.
crabby	posted 08-24-2012 02:48 PM ET (US) It might help if you posted a few images of exactly what you are trying to accomplish. I have a difficult time envisioning a thick pour of epoxy to fill in delaminations between the foam and the glass, especially so thick as to cause the resin to expand and push out the holes. How much epoxy are you actually pouring in a single shot? Maybe if you are just trying to fill a void you'd be better off using either a two part foam or some foam in a can. Get some pics posted somewhere and link them here so we can see what you're actually doing.
Downtownfish	posted 08-24-2012 03:07 PM ET (US) Yea I can post photos later when I get home. I have not even attempted to fill any of the delaminated spots yet. I am getting these boil over just filling smaller areas such as last night i ground out some JB weld that one of the previous owners has poured into a hole under the nav light. I got it all out and cleaned up the area. I was left with a large hole about the 1 1/2 inches by 2 inches wide and maybe a half inch deep. I only filled it about half full with epoxy so maybe 2 oz of epoxy total. I guess the spot I am more concered are at the stern on the boat. I don;t know how else to describe the area besides the little half moon shaped area in the stern. Those two spots one on each side are soft and when I drilled into them they seem pretty hallow. This is where I think the epoxy will be very think and boil over.
PeteB88	posted 08-24-2012 03:11 PM ET (US) You could also resin coat - epoxy coat - some appropriate material and insert or pack it into the void to fill up space then inject the hole to complete the fill. Agree photos would help.
jimh	posted 08-24-2012 08:13 PM ET (US) Solid epoxy resin--of any brand--is not a good filler for large gaps. Typically for gap filling you need to add a filler to the epoxy resin. When epoxy resin is mixed with a filler the problems being reported of too much heat generation in the exothermic cure will go away. When you were advised to seek information from WEST System themselves you received good advice.
PeteB88	posted 08-24-2012 09:52 PM ET (US) Agree, filler, I use it all the time. I recall someone using epoxy saturated foam or something (some years ago) for something - boat, surfboard, can't recall. If West techs can't help you no one can.
crabby	posted 08-25-2012 01:17 PM ET (US) +2 to the posts by JimH and Pete above. 2 ounces of epoxy may not seem like a large amount but in a small spot it will really heat up. I've never really seen WEST epoxy swell up (and I have had plenty of batches kick off in mixing cups, using 105/205, 105/206, and G-flex; never had one kick off in the cup using 209 as the hardener). Actually I take that back, I nearly started a fire one time when about four ounces kicked off on me and did boil out of the cup one hot evening. I think I've adjusted my work habits since that episode. Neat epoxy can also be brittle. Mix it with some fillers and then inject it into the holes or use something else to fill the large gaps. Maybe try some six10 (already thickened, comes in a caulking cartridge tube). If you do multiple pours to fill your big voids try to time them such that the previous pour has not cured fully as the amine blush that forms on the surface may prevent good adhesion between layers.
Powergroove803	posted 08-27-2012 01:10 PM ET (US) I would try a test sample(1 squirt of resin), and reduce the hardener slightly. If it dries solid in a test batch, and gives you extra potlife, then youre good. I wouldnt necessarily try this on a test spot on or in the boat as there is nothing worse than uncured epoxy resin. I use the slow hardener here in S carolina in the summer and will frequently see it smoing and have about 5 minutes of pot life when used in the sun on a 95 degree day, which is typical. Fortunately I have not been doing big jobs, so my pot life can be short.
ConB	posted 08-27-2012 01:40 PM ET (US) Never deviate from the manufacturers mixing ratios when using epoxy. Con
PeteB88	posted 08-27-2012 03:38 PM ET (US) Exactly Con - must be obsessive about mixing ratios
ToneDef	posted 08-27-2012 09:41 PM ET (US) I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but I would HIGHLY recommend using West System's mini pump set. It includes separate sized pumps for each component, such as 105, 206, etc. It makes it so your mixing becomes one pump of each component. What have you been mixing it at? You should not be mixing this stuff 1:1.
crabby	posted 08-28-2012 08:03 AM ET (US) The WEST pumps are nice but lately I've been using a small $15 scale purchased online (looks very similar to the one marketed by WEST for over $30). No more problems priming the pumps or counting strokes, and it works great for very small batches.
Downtownfish	posted 08-28-2012 09:22 AM ET (US) Hey guys. Thanks for the advice with everything. As far as the filler I am using 403 filler and still get these boil overs. So that did not help too much. I can add more filler and give it a shot maybe to displace some of the epoxy so it won't heat as much. I also am using a digital scale so I am measureing it by weight to the 5 to 1 ratio that they recommend. As far a packing a material into the delaminated spots would be hard since I don't want to cut large holes into the boat at this time. Here is picture of an area that expanded. This is with 403 filler added to the mix. I poured a thin layer of epoxy on top of the semicured area to give me a smoother finish since when it expanded it created a buch of bumps and chuncks that would have made it tough to lay glass over. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d174/surffla/_DSC0130.jpg
Downtownfish	posted 08-28-2012 09:24 AM ET (US) Crabby, was this the 209 extra slow hardener that you had boil over?
Powergroove803	posted 08-28-2012 11:19 AM ET (US) I use the mini pumps exclusively and have to say that if any air is in the pump, then your ratio has already been altered. I typically have some air in my hardener, not my resin, so even with the pumps the ratio may not be exact. The mixing guides say "DO NOT attempt to adjust the epoxy cure time by altering the mix ratio. An accurate ratio is essential for a proper cure and full development of physical properties". Below is a tech sheet for 105 and 206 slow hardener. 20-25 minute pot life at 72 degrees would be great, but at 95-100 degrees my pot life is in the single digits. I have semi perfected my ratios for my environamental temps, so I dont say alter the ratios without doing some testing, but it certainly can be done with good results(never had a delamination in about 10 years of projects). Handling characteristics Mix ratio by volume (300 Mini Pump ratio) · · 5 parts resin : 1 part hardener by weight · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5.0:1 Mix viscosity (at 72°F) ASTM D-2393 · · · · · · · 725cps Pot life (100g at 72°F) · · · ·· · · · · · · 20to25minutes Working time, thin film* ·· · · · · · · · · 90to110minutes Cure to a solid, thin film· · · · · · · · · 10to15hours Cure to working strength · · · · · · · · · · · 1to4days Minimum recommended temperature· · · · · · · · 60°F (16°C) Epoxy cures faster at higher temperatures and in thicker applications
crabby	posted 08-28-2012 05:57 PM ET (US) @ downtown: I never had the 209 (very slow cure) mix kick off early on me but that is likely because I never used the 209 in large quantities. I honestly can't tell you which mix (105/205 or 105/slow cure) did the serious overheat on me as it was at least two years ago. I last used 209 two weeks ago in a batch of about 4 ounces in +85 F temps and had no problem wetting out several layers of 1708 and building a small box top.
crabby	posted 08-28-2012 06:02 PM ET (US) http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d174/surffla/_DSC0130.jpg Looks to me as if there is not much filler in the resin, and that is a pretty big hole to be filling with neat resin. I'd be using at a minimum resin with lots of glass fibers along with a bit of some other powdered fillers. A LOT of fibers. You need to make the mix very stiff so it needs to be troweled in (after a little dose of neat resin to wet things out).
Downtownfish	posted 08-29-2012 08:14 AM ET (US) I didn't add enough filler that I had to apply it with a putty knife, but it was thicken quit a bit. It looks much clearer because I poured neat resin on top of it to seal up some areas where it started to get chunky from the expansion. Anyways I know what you are saying that it should be almost a paste.