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Author Topic:   Outrage 25 - transom crack repair

GarrisonWhaler posted 09-28-2012 08:47 AM ET (US)
Hello,
I am new to the forum having just acquired a 1987 Outrage 25 Cuddy Cabin. Her hull seems to be in pretty solid overall shape (never stored in water, never bottom painted) other than a few gelcoat dings that need repair and two of the through hull drains that need replacement.
Overall photo of boat (prior owner's house not mine):
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Hull_zps6f42d502.jpg
However, I don't much like the cracks in the transom depicted in the 3 photos below. I think these are what I have seen referred to in this forum as greenline cracks. The transom does not flex when I lean on the engines, it did not seem to flex in the sea trial at speed with twin 150s pushing hard on a pretty wavy day. I don't really know what a "dead sound" should sound like but in tapping the transom with a rubber screwdriver handle I didn't hear anything that sounded dead to me.
At the very least I assume these should be filled in with epoxy to prevent water intrusion.
Any advice on whether that is enough and/or how to best address this would be much appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Best, Derek
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Greenline1_zps3b3b2218.jpg
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Greenline2_zps56e66f67.jpg
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Greenline3_zps5248ae47.jpg
JMARTIN posted 09-28-2012 11:58 AM ET (US)
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/ Greenline1_zps3b3b2218.jpg
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/ Greenline2_zps56e66f67.jpg
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/ Greenline3_zps5248ae47.jpg
dfmcintyre posted 09-28-2012 12:09 PM ET (US)
Derek -
Welcome to the forum!
It may be (hopefully not) an indicator of earlier water penetration and a number of freeze / thaw cycles. Seen it before in regions of the US where boats are stored in unheated buildings or outside.
Regards - Don
GarrisonWhaler posted 09-28-2012 01:40 PM ET (US)
Don-
Thanks. That sounds possible. Boat's recent history was in New Jersey and outdoor storage (Florida in earlier years). Crack clearly could let some water in. In fact it is raining outside now (have not yet got her covered as just got her to my driveway) and if I push on transom a bit of water bubbles up from the deeper area of the crack.
Would much appreciate ideas as to what are the options for repair...and if it is freeze/thaw how would that change what I might do?
Best, Derek
Jeff posted 09-28-2012 02:56 PM ET (US)
If you push on it and are getting water squeezing up and out I would say you are left with only one option. Removing the motors, gutting the transom of it's wet wood and rebuilding the transom. Anything less would be a band-aid at best and just prolong the inevitable.
Jerry Townsend posted 09-28-2012 02:56 PM ET (US)
Derek - welcome. Good looking Whaler.
The photos show that the damage is not stress related - by overloading, weakness, design, et al - and water freezing and thawing would explain the damage. The photos also suggest that there had to be quite a bit of entrapped water. But with proper repairs, it should be alright.
I have had Whalers since the mid 70's (well, 2) - and have always kept them covered with water-proof (vinyl impreginated nylon) tarps and parked outside. Temperatures have ranged between -30 and 100 - and I have never had a problem. It doesn't have to be all that cold - as the maximum expansion occurs at -4 F.
I suggest you cover it with a waterproof tarp and consider putting a small electric heater on the deck to help vaporize any water - and then after a few months, make the repairs. There is good information in the reference section of the website on making the repairs. --- Jerry/Idaho
GarrisonWhaler posted 09-28-2012 03:53 PM ET (US)
To be clear no water comes out except just now when she had been uncovered in pouring rain (yeah dumb)...so this is what just fell from sky
Don't know if that changes any thoughts on rebuild vs patch job?
Thanks, Derek
L H G posted 09-28-2012 06:01 PM ET (US)
I would say that boat is going to need a new transom. I don't like the looks of that damage at all.
Buckda posted 09-28-2012 07:14 PM ET (US)
I have to agree that it is an area of concern, for sure. I'd start with the drain tube replacements....that will give you a good idea if the foam is also wet..and if so, you can decide if you want to proceed further.
I'd then consider drilling a series of pilot holes in the transom with a small drill bit to find out if the wood is wet or not. If not, you should be good to go by filling those holes with epoxy and patching the gelcoat, and removing the engines, and injecting a resin such as epoxy followed by clamping pressure to re-seal the glass to wood bond. Then you can patch the gelcoat along the top of the transom.
Nice boat...I really like mine!
Dave
frontier posted 09-28-2012 08:41 PM ET (US)
Find out who the best, most honest fiberglass shop in your area is, and take it in for advice. Or pay them to come out and look.
Well worth it - it may save you a lot of time and money in the long run.
You may just need to seal the top.
Binkster posted 09-29-2012 12:06 PM ET (US)
In my opinion Jeff and Larry(LHG) have given you the right advice. Anything else is just a band aid, and will become worse and seriously devalue the boat. If you are experienced in fiberglass repair you can do it yourself, but if not you need to find a professional. It is not an inexpensive job to fix, I hope you took that into account when you bought the boat.
rich
jimh posted 09-29-2012 02:22 PM ET (US)
To properly assess the damage will require more information than can be inferred from some pictures. It could be cosmetic; it could be structural. Investigate using the method suggested: check for water in the wood in the transom. If the boat is a freshwater boat, the wood may be rotting. If the boat is a saltwater boat the wood may not have rotted.
Tilt up one outboard to about a 45-degree angle, grab the skeg, and apply upward force. If you can deflect the transom then there is a problem.
GarrisonWhaler posted 09-30-2012 04:22 PM ET (US)
Thanks all for the suggestions
I did put each engine at 45 degrees and lift up as hard as i could. Nothing on the transom budged on either side although I did shake the whole boat and trailer around.
In drilling pilot holes what size and locations would you recommend? 1/4 inch? I assume one bottom center to test the bottom of the wood and also drain any water in there - how far above the bottom of keel to hit the bottom of the transom wood not the boat bottom fiberglass layer? 2 others near the top on either side to test the upper portion?
Thanks again. It is really helpful to get all this advice.
Best, Derek
martyn1075 posted 09-30-2012 09:01 PM ET (US)
I have seen this before in the same area but it was not as major. This still could be something that does not need full out major construction work. It might though but I would second the idea of getting someone you trust who works in this field to give you some advice. Not that anyone here is not worthy of course not its just hard to really tell until you see in person and examine for yourself. Some things that look dreadful are not always that bad. I hope thats the case here.
It sort of appears that someone before may have been fairly rough with it and the boat quite possibly has been under great deal of stress. Can you see any evidence of water marks or brown dark shady areas in and around the transom? Get down and look at it from the back corner sides and see if you can seen any amount of waviness.
Martyn
GarrisonWhaler posted 09-30-2012 10:30 PM ET (US)
Martyn,
I can't detect any such patterns.
Thanks.
Best, Derek
martyn1075 posted 10-01-2012 01:23 AM ET (US)
Thats good news I would have it checked out only if it worries you to the point you are not enjoying your new boat which looks great btw. Otherwise some gelcoat patch up work would protect it from further damage.
Martyn
Jerry Townsend posted 10-01-2012 12:57 PM ET (US)
Derek - you have received many replys to your problem.
Forget about a stress related problem. The area where the problem exists is loaded under compression - trying to squeeze the fibers together - not separate the fibers and cause a crack/defect. If the problem were stress related - the cracks would be at 90 degrees to the existing problem and at the inboard surface of the transom.
Therefore, something else caused the problem. One of the "something else" possibilities is the freezing of entrapped water. What caused the intrusion of water? Why so much water?
Consider removing one of the upper engine mounting bolts and using something like a dentist's pick - or a bent and flattened welding rod - et al - and see if the wood is rotted or still firm. Be sure and reseal the bolt when putting it back.
The thing that puzzles me is the length of the problem. That requires the water intrusion and saturation to be for the entire length of the crack - or perhaps thin glas on that entire 90 degree edge. I don't know if those sections on the '87 boats were spray by hand or machine. If by hand, I could imagine where the glas could be a bit thin on that edge.
If the wood is firm - as indicated from some of your tests noted above - do the repair as discussed in the reference section - or by a good and knowledgable fiberglas repair person/facility. I suggest not doing a simple gelcoat patch job.
And as I mentioned before - covering it with a vinyl impregnated nylon tarp protects it from water and the sun. ----- Jerry/Idaho
GarrisonWhaler posted 10-02-2012 06:19 PM ET (US)
Thanks all for the input and advice.
I will post an update after I consult with a local trusted fiberglass guy (I have obtained a recommendation and am seeing him in 2 weeks) and have a course of action / any information or pictures that may help others learn from this.
Best, Derek
L H G posted 10-02-2012 07:45 PM ET (US)
I would consider having either an experienced Boston Whaler dealership, or a well qualified outboard boat Marine Surveyor appraise the situation. I'm not sure a fiberglass repair guy is what you want, until you know how it has to be repaired.
Incidentally, you never told us what the boat seller indicated about the situation, or even why you purchased a boat in this condition. I would think he would know the history of this transom opening up like that.
GarrisonWhaler posted 10-03-2012 06:31 PM ET (US)
LHG,
Fair question. The prior owner inherited the boat about 7 years ago from his father in law, used it for 2 years with old engines then put on new twin 150 e-tecs. I wouldn't exactly describe him as a meticulous maintenance type -- he said the transom cracks were there when he got it, he thought they were cosmetic and he didn't have any other history on them or see them change while he had the boat. He used the boat ~ 3x a year and stored it outside. I bought it mostly for the e-tecs with 30 hours on them (although I love the 25 cuddy). I felt I paid a fair price for the engines and an old but solid continential ibeam trailer and net of that effectively paid 2-3K for the hull so felt (we will see if I was right) that left me room to fix her up and do ok.
Derek
jimh posted 10-04-2012 12:22 AM ET (US)
The 25-foot Boston Whaler OUTRAGE hull is a great hull--it's just a wonderful boat, rides great, not too heavy to haul around--a super hull. If you got into this boat with just a pittance invested in the hull, you are in good shape, no mater what happens with the transom. As I said already, to properly assess the transom condition will require more than two photographs. Get someone you trust to advise you about the condition, and preferably someone who is familiar with a Boston Whaler Unibond hull and its unique construction. Don't get some fiberglass guy who works on metal-flake gel coat bass boats to assess this; get a Whaler guy.

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Author	Topic: Outrage 25 - transom crack repair
GarrisonWhaler	posted 09-28-2012 08:47 AM ET (US) Hello, I am new to the forum having just acquired a 1987 Outrage 25 Cuddy Cabin. Her hull seems to be in pretty solid overall shape (never stored in water, never bottom painted) other than a few gelcoat dings that need repair and two of the through hull drains that need replacement. Overall photo of boat (prior owner's house not mine): http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Hull_zps6f42d502.jpg However, I don't much like the cracks in the transom depicted in the 3 photos below. I think these are what I have seen referred to in this forum as greenline cracks. The transom does not flex when I lean on the engines, it did not seem to flex in the sea trial at speed with twin 150s pushing hard on a pretty wavy day. I don't really know what a "dead sound" should sound like but in tapping the transom with a rubber screwdriver handle I didn't hear anything that sounded dead to me. At the very least I assume these should be filled in with epoxy to prevent water intrusion. Any advice on whether that is enough and/or how to best address this would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance. Best, Derek http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Greenline1_zps3b3b2218.jpg http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Greenline2_zps56e66f67.jpg http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/Greenline3_zps5248ae47.jpg
JMARTIN	posted 09-28-2012 11:58 AM ET (US) http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/ Greenline1_zps3b3b2218.jpg http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/ Greenline2_zps56e66f67.jpg http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u530/d3photobucket/Whaler/ Greenline3_zps5248ae47.jpg
dfmcintyre	posted 09-28-2012 12:09 PM ET (US) Derek - Welcome to the forum! It may be (hopefully not) an indicator of earlier water penetration and a number of freeze / thaw cycles. Seen it before in regions of the US where boats are stored in unheated buildings or outside. Regards - Don
GarrisonWhaler	posted 09-28-2012 01:40 PM ET (US) Don- Thanks. That sounds possible. Boat's recent history was in New Jersey and outdoor storage (Florida in earlier years). Crack clearly could let some water in. In fact it is raining outside now (have not yet got her covered as just got her to my driveway) and if I push on transom a bit of water bubbles up from the deeper area of the crack. Would much appreciate ideas as to what are the options for repair...and if it is freeze/thaw how would that change what I might do? Best, Derek
Jeff	posted 09-28-2012 02:56 PM ET (US) If you push on it and are getting water squeezing up and out I would say you are left with only one option. Removing the motors, gutting the transom of it's wet wood and rebuilding the transom. Anything less would be a band-aid at best and just prolong the inevitable.
Jerry Townsend	posted 09-28-2012 02:56 PM ET (US) Derek - welcome. Good looking Whaler. The photos show that the damage is not stress related - by overloading, weakness, design, et al - and water freezing and thawing would explain the damage. The photos also suggest that there had to be quite a bit of entrapped water. But with proper repairs, it should be alright. I have had Whalers since the mid 70's (well, 2) - and have always kept them covered with water-proof (vinyl impreginated nylon) tarps and parked outside. Temperatures have ranged between -30 and 100 - and I have never had a problem. It doesn't have to be all that cold - as the maximum expansion occurs at -4 F. I suggest you cover it with a waterproof tarp and consider putting a small electric heater on the deck to help vaporize any water - and then after a few months, make the repairs. There is good information in the reference section of the website on making the repairs. --- Jerry/Idaho
GarrisonWhaler	posted 09-28-2012 03:53 PM ET (US) To be clear no water comes out except just now when she had been uncovered in pouring rain (yeah dumb)...so this is what just fell from sky Don't know if that changes any thoughts on rebuild vs patch job? Thanks, Derek
L H G	posted 09-28-2012 06:01 PM ET (US) I would say that boat is going to need a new transom. I don't like the looks of that damage at all.
Buckda	posted 09-28-2012 07:14 PM ET (US) I have to agree that it is an area of concern, for sure. I'd start with the drain tube replacements....that will give you a good idea if the foam is also wet..and if so, you can decide if you want to proceed further. I'd then consider drilling a series of pilot holes in the transom with a small drill bit to find out if the wood is wet or not. If not, you should be good to go by filling those holes with epoxy and patching the gelcoat, and removing the engines, and injecting a resin such as epoxy followed by clamping pressure to re-seal the glass to wood bond. Then you can patch the gelcoat along the top of the transom. Nice boat...I really like mine! Dave
frontier	posted 09-28-2012 08:41 PM ET (US) Find out who the best, most honest fiberglass shop in your area is, and take it in for advice. Or pay them to come out and look. Well worth it - it may save you a lot of time and money in the long run. You may just need to seal the top.
Binkster	posted 09-29-2012 12:06 PM ET (US) In my opinion Jeff and Larry(LHG) have given you the right advice. Anything else is just a band aid, and will become worse and seriously devalue the boat. If you are experienced in fiberglass repair you can do it yourself, but if not you need to find a professional. It is not an inexpensive job to fix, I hope you took that into account when you bought the boat. rich
jimh	posted 09-29-2012 02:22 PM ET (US) To properly assess the damage will require more information than can be inferred from some pictures. It could be cosmetic; it could be structural. Investigate using the method suggested: check for water in the wood in the transom. If the boat is a freshwater boat, the wood may be rotting. If the boat is a saltwater boat the wood may not have rotted. Tilt up one outboard to about a 45-degree angle, grab the skeg, and apply upward force. If you can deflect the transom then there is a problem.
GarrisonWhaler	posted 09-30-2012 04:22 PM ET (US) Thanks all for the suggestions I did put each engine at 45 degrees and lift up as hard as i could. Nothing on the transom budged on either side although I did shake the whole boat and trailer around. In drilling pilot holes what size and locations would you recommend? 1/4 inch? I assume one bottom center to test the bottom of the wood and also drain any water in there - how far above the bottom of keel to hit the bottom of the transom wood not the boat bottom fiberglass layer? 2 others near the top on either side to test the upper portion? Thanks again. It is really helpful to get all this advice. Best, Derek
martyn1075	posted 09-30-2012 09:01 PM ET (US) I have seen this before in the same area but it was not as major. This still could be something that does not need full out major construction work. It might though but I would second the idea of getting someone you trust who works in this field to give you some advice. Not that anyone here is not worthy of course not its just hard to really tell until you see in person and examine for yourself. Some things that look dreadful are not always that bad. I hope thats the case here. It sort of appears that someone before may have been fairly rough with it and the boat quite possibly has been under great deal of stress. Can you see any evidence of water marks or brown dark shady areas in and around the transom? Get down and look at it from the back corner sides and see if you can seen any amount of waviness. Martyn
GarrisonWhaler	posted 09-30-2012 10:30 PM ET (US) Martyn, I can't detect any such patterns. Thanks. Best, Derek
martyn1075	posted 10-01-2012 01:23 AM ET (US) Thats good news I would have it checked out only if it worries you to the point you are not enjoying your new boat which looks great btw. Otherwise some gelcoat patch up work would protect it from further damage. Martyn
Jerry Townsend	posted 10-01-2012 12:57 PM ET (US) Derek - you have received many replys to your problem. Forget about a stress related problem. The area where the problem exists is loaded under compression - trying to squeeze the fibers together - not separate the fibers and cause a crack/defect. If the problem were stress related - the cracks would be at 90 degrees to the existing problem and at the inboard surface of the transom. Therefore, something else caused the problem. One of the "something else" possibilities is the freezing of entrapped water. What caused the intrusion of water? Why so much water? Consider removing one of the upper engine mounting bolts and using something like a dentist's pick - or a bent and flattened welding rod - et al - and see if the wood is rotted or still firm. Be sure and reseal the bolt when putting it back. The thing that puzzles me is the length of the problem. That requires the water intrusion and saturation to be for the entire length of the crack - or perhaps thin glas on that entire 90 degree edge. I don't know if those sections on the '87 boats were spray by hand or machine. If by hand, I could imagine where the glas could be a bit thin on that edge. If the wood is firm - as indicated from some of your tests noted above - do the repair as discussed in the reference section - or by a good and knowledgable fiberglas repair person/facility. I suggest not doing a simple gelcoat patch job. And as I mentioned before - covering it with a vinyl impregnated nylon tarp protects it from water and the sun. ----- Jerry/Idaho
GarrisonWhaler	posted 10-02-2012 06:19 PM ET (US) Thanks all for the input and advice. I will post an update after I consult with a local trusted fiberglass guy (I have obtained a recommendation and am seeing him in 2 weeks) and have a course of action / any information or pictures that may help others learn from this. Best, Derek
L H G	posted 10-02-2012 07:45 PM ET (US) I would consider having either an experienced Boston Whaler dealership, or a well qualified outboard boat Marine Surveyor appraise the situation. I'm not sure a fiberglass repair guy is what you want, until you know how it has to be repaired. Incidentally, you never told us what the boat seller indicated about the situation, or even why you purchased a boat in this condition. I would think he would know the history of this transom opening up like that.
GarrisonWhaler	posted 10-03-2012 06:31 PM ET (US) LHG, Fair question. The prior owner inherited the boat about 7 years ago from his father in law, used it for 2 years with old engines then put on new twin 150 e-tecs. I wouldn't exactly describe him as a meticulous maintenance type -- he said the transom cracks were there when he got it, he thought they were cosmetic and he didn't have any other history on them or see them change while he had the boat. He used the boat ~ 3x a year and stored it outside. I bought it mostly for the e-tecs with 30 hours on them (although I love the 25 cuddy). I felt I paid a fair price for the engines and an old but solid continential ibeam trailer and net of that effectively paid 2-3K for the hull so felt (we will see if I was right) that left me room to fix her up and do ok. Derek
jimh	posted 10-04-2012 12:22 AM ET (US) The 25-foot Boston Whaler OUTRAGE hull is a great hull--it's just a wonderful boat, rides great, not too heavy to haul around--a super hull. If you got into this boat with just a pittance invested in the hull, you are in good shape, no mater what happens with the transom. As I said already, to properly assess the transom condition will require more than two photographs. Get someone you trust to advise you about the condition, and preferably someone who is familiar with a Boston Whaler Unibond hull and its unique construction. Don't get some fiberglass guy who works on metal-flake gel coat bass boats to assess this; get a Whaler guy.