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Author Topic:   wet sanding, buffing, and wax 101

SEAJ posted 03-18-2013 09:55 AM ET (US)
Hi, my son and I are working on an old 15 whaler that has tons of dings, scratches, and scars. Since new the boat has been used as a work boat for a lake sailing club. In addition to dings and scratches it has the name of the sailing club Painted on both sides. Being my son's first boat, it being a beater is perfect, as I am certain he will add to scaring, and it hopefully will be a good father/son project.
My original intention was to clean the boat, remove the painted name, and turn him loose, but after sanding the name off, I was surprised how clean the hull looked. I sanded with 600 grit paper and the name came off pretty slow, but when I moved to 300, it was a breeze. Then I tested two spots, one with a liquid compound only, and the other with a heavy rubbing compound paste and then with the liquid compound. Both were form Walmart, made by turtle wax, and applied with an electric buffer/polisher with a lambs wool cover (I think it is lambs wool as it is fluffy). The test area that has both compounds applied has a I higher gloss, looking down the sides of the boat. Looking straight at the boat, there is not much noticeable difference.
So here are my questions, what is the best process, the best order, and the best products to use to make her hull shine again. I have been reading on CW and the Hull Truth, and the more I read the more confused I get. I would like to know what grit sand paper, to start and finish. Does all the sanding need to be performed by hand, or is a orbital sander acceptable. Should all sanding be wet? I am assuming after sanding, the buffing and polishing is next and then wax, what product should I use? Are buffing compounds and polishing compounds one and the same or different products? From all of my reading, doing the gel coat repairs should be performed after all of the sanding and buffing is complete. Does that sound accurate?
As always thanks for the helpful advice.
Binkster posted 03-19-2013 09:31 AM ET (US)
To answer your first question as to can you use an orbital sander for sanding your hull, the answer is yes, but of course you can't wet sand this way as you will probably get electrocuted. You need to use a DA sander with a compressor. You need a big compressor as you use alot of air. Most of us don't have a large enough compressor.
For all the details on sanding and polishing your hull scroll down to my thread started on 12/24/12 titled
Topic: Spectrum Gel Coat Patch Paste Repair Kit. After I finished sanding I waxed the hull with McGuires carnuba wax. I have a great shine and the 1986 hull looks nearly new.
rich
Binkster posted 03-19-2013 09:53 AM ET (US)
BTW if you are interesting in using 6" Abralon sanding pads for sanding your hull, you can order them from this site. They have for around $25 a kit that gives you one pad each from 180-4000 grit. I think there are about 5 or 6 pads included.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/Mirkaabrasives2.htm .
They are hook and loop pads and can be used with an orbital sander (dry) but I used them wet and hand sanded. It was easy (on a 15 foot Whaler), took about 30 minutes per pad to wet sand the hull.
These sanding pads were originally made for the fine furniture finishing business, but are now widely used in the bowling industry for sanding bowling balls to get the right finish on them to match the lane oil conditions of your bowling lanes. That's how I discovered them, from watching the bowling pro shop operator refinish bowling balls.
rich
69wailer posted 03-19-2013 10:04 AM ET (US)
Get a air powered orbital or d/a and wet sand and hit the flats the best you can. Use a rubber block for hand sanding. Wrap a sponge for the curved surfaces. Start with 320, and work your way up with 400, 600 up to 1000 and then polish. At a minimum make sure the compressor exceeds the SCFM of the sander. If you dont own, go rent for the weekend.
pcrussell50 posted 03-20-2013 02:35 AM ET (US)
This random orbital, DA seems to be the industry standard in the automotive world:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=& cad=rja&docid=vLHgk6LoDMvzAM&tbnid=ddB_88hFCfrKnM:&ved=0CAUQjRw& url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.detailing. com%2Fstore%2Fporter-cable-7424xp-6-inch-random-orbit-polisher.html& ei=Y2ZJUYXSNeqqiAL66oDoDg&bvm=bv.44011176,d.cGE& psig=AFQjCNFHv-3hYSElZo-4GSWTds5eBHvWFw&ust=1363851230745220
I wonder how it would fare for what we're talking about here?
-Peter
jflots posted 03-20-2013 01:59 PM ET (US)
DA's make quick work of it. Using a product like Dykem helps you keep track of where you've been. It's a purpleish/blue dye that you thin with acetone and wipe on the gelcoat, then sand it off. Keep the DA flat on the surface and watch the high spots turn white. Reapply between sanding grits. good luck
Binkster posted 03-20-2013 02:58 PM ET (US)
At one time I had a compressor that would run a DA. For me now being retired, they're too big and too much expense just for the extra air to run a DA sander. It doesn't take much air to run an airgun or even a paint gun.
rich
SEAJ posted 03-20-2013 07:53 PM ET (US)
Thanks everyone for the information. Blinkster, I read your post and it was very helpful. My compressor is also too small for a DA sander, so I am going to wet sand. I know this may be a dumb question, but LHG responded to your post stating to "wet sand, buff and polish", what is the difference between buffing and polishing? I always thought rubbing compound was used to buff (cut) a surface and then to follow with wax to protect the surface. Ironically, I just purchased the craftsman version of the buffer/sander pcrussell50 recommended. It is what I used to apply the two types of compounds I tried.
However, I am disappointed in the replies you received as to the the color differences in gel coats. Being a "work" for her entire life, she has many many war scars. Placing an order last week, I am expecting a quart of Spectrum gel coat any time now. I did not order the kit, but I did order the filler to make the paste (I can't think of the name of the product). The Spectrum tech said the paste was not needed unless the repairs were into the mat. The filler was cheap and I have a few dings into the green mat so I bought it too. My son is on spring break next week, so our plan is to wet sand using the suggested grits, and then buff, and hopeful paint on some gelcoat. We are extremely new to glass repair, but the good thing is, we can't make her any uglier. LOL So wish us luck and I will let you how she turns out. Thanks
Plotman posted 03-21-2013 07:53 AM ET (US)
Buff = use rubbing compound
Polish = a finer product such as 3M's Finnese-it
They are both liquid with abrasives suspended in them - finesse it is just super fine - barely abrasive at all.
Eastport3338 posted 03-21-2013 10:24 AM ET (US)
I believe this thread will answer all your questions.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/004078.html
Binkster posted 03-21-2013 11:31 AM ET (US)
As usual, most folks with limited experience think that the more difficult that you can make a job, the better the results will be, as that thread shows. Fortunately, thats not true.
rich
SEAJ posted 03-25-2013 10:03 AM ET (US)
Update. Bad news. Fighting the bad weather,I finally have the hull flipped over, and on the cradle my son and I built. Going over the hull, I discovered some blistering on the aft section of the hull. Funny how a simple projects often turn in BIG projects. Oh well.
Jessielove posted 03-26-2013 08:45 PM ET (US)
I've used the 3M system with great results. They have a nice video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5kfYz9Ybw
It was pretty much just as easy as they made it look.

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Author	Topic: wet sanding, buffing, and wax 101
SEAJ	posted 03-18-2013 09:55 AM ET (US) Hi, my son and I are working on an old 15 whaler that has tons of dings, scratches, and scars. Since new the boat has been used as a work boat for a lake sailing club. In addition to dings and scratches it has the name of the sailing club Painted on both sides. Being my son's first boat, it being a beater is perfect, as I am certain he will add to scaring, and it hopefully will be a good father/son project. My original intention was to clean the boat, remove the painted name, and turn him loose, but after sanding the name off, I was surprised how clean the hull looked. I sanded with 600 grit paper and the name came off pretty slow, but when I moved to 300, it was a breeze. Then I tested two spots, one with a liquid compound only, and the other with a heavy rubbing compound paste and then with the liquid compound. Both were form Walmart, made by turtle wax, and applied with an electric buffer/polisher with a lambs wool cover (I think it is lambs wool as it is fluffy). The test area that has both compounds applied has a I higher gloss, looking down the sides of the boat. Looking straight at the boat, there is not much noticeable difference. So here are my questions, what is the best process, the best order, and the best products to use to make her hull shine again. I have been reading on CW and the Hull Truth, and the more I read the more confused I get. I would like to know what grit sand paper, to start and finish. Does all the sanding need to be performed by hand, or is a orbital sander acceptable. Should all sanding be wet? I am assuming after sanding, the buffing and polishing is next and then wax, what product should I use? Are buffing compounds and polishing compounds one and the same or different products? From all of my reading, doing the gel coat repairs should be performed after all of the sanding and buffing is complete. Does that sound accurate? As always thanks for the helpful advice.
Binkster	posted 03-19-2013 09:31 AM ET (US) To answer your first question as to can you use an orbital sander for sanding your hull, the answer is yes, but of course you can't wet sand this way as you will probably get electrocuted. You need to use a DA sander with a compressor. You need a big compressor as you use alot of air. Most of us don't have a large enough compressor. For all the details on sanding and polishing your hull scroll down to my thread started on 12/24/12 titled Topic: Spectrum Gel Coat Patch Paste Repair Kit. After I finished sanding I waxed the hull with McGuires carnuba wax. I have a great shine and the 1986 hull looks nearly new. rich
Binkster	posted 03-19-2013 09:53 AM ET (US) BTW if you are interesting in using 6" Abralon sanding pads for sanding your hull, you can order them from this site. They have for around $25 a kit that gives you one pad each from 180-4000 grit. I think there are about 5 or 6 pads included. http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/Mirkaabrasives2.htm . They are hook and loop pads and can be used with an orbital sander (dry) but I used them wet and hand sanded. It was easy (on a 15 foot Whaler), took about 30 minutes per pad to wet sand the hull. These sanding pads were originally made for the fine furniture finishing business, but are now widely used in the bowling industry for sanding bowling balls to get the right finish on them to match the lane oil conditions of your bowling lanes. That's how I discovered them, from watching the bowling pro shop operator refinish bowling balls. rich
69wailer	posted 03-19-2013 10:04 AM ET (US) Get a air powered orbital or d/a and wet sand and hit the flats the best you can. Use a rubber block for hand sanding. Wrap a sponge for the curved surfaces. Start with 320, and work your way up with 400, 600 up to 1000 and then polish. At a minimum make sure the compressor exceeds the SCFM of the sander. If you dont own, go rent for the weekend.
pcrussell50	posted 03-20-2013 02:35 AM ET (US) This random orbital, DA seems to be the industry standard in the automotive world: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=& cad=rja&docid=vLHgk6LoDMvzAM&tbnid=ddB_88hFCfrKnM:&ved=0CAUQjRw& url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.detailing. com%2Fstore%2Fporter-cable-7424xp-6-inch-random-orbit-polisher.html& ei=Y2ZJUYXSNeqqiAL66oDoDg&bvm=bv.44011176,d.cGE& psig=AFQjCNFHv-3hYSElZo-4GSWTds5eBHvWFw&ust=1363851230745220 I wonder how it would fare for what we're talking about here? -Peter
jflots	posted 03-20-2013 01:59 PM ET (US) DA's make quick work of it. Using a product like Dykem helps you keep track of where you've been. It's a purpleish/blue dye that you thin with acetone and wipe on the gelcoat, then sand it off. Keep the DA flat on the surface and watch the high spots turn white. Reapply between sanding grits. good luck
Binkster	posted 03-20-2013 02:58 PM ET (US) At one time I had a compressor that would run a DA. For me now being retired, they're too big and too much expense just for the extra air to run a DA sander. It doesn't take much air to run an airgun or even a paint gun. rich
SEAJ	posted 03-20-2013 07:53 PM ET (US) Thanks everyone for the information. Blinkster, I read your post and it was very helpful. My compressor is also too small for a DA sander, so I am going to wet sand. I know this may be a dumb question, but LHG responded to your post stating to "wet sand, buff and polish", what is the difference between buffing and polishing? I always thought rubbing compound was used to buff (cut) a surface and then to follow with wax to protect the surface. Ironically, I just purchased the craftsman version of the buffer/sander pcrussell50 recommended. It is what I used to apply the two types of compounds I tried. However, I am disappointed in the replies you received as to the the color differences in gel coats. Being a "work" for her entire life, she has many many war scars. Placing an order last week, I am expecting a quart of Spectrum gel coat any time now. I did not order the kit, but I did order the filler to make the paste (I can't think of the name of the product). The Spectrum tech said the paste was not needed unless the repairs were into the mat. The filler was cheap and I have a few dings into the green mat so I bought it too. My son is on spring break next week, so our plan is to wet sand using the suggested grits, and then buff, and hopeful paint on some gelcoat. We are extremely new to glass repair, but the good thing is, we can't make her any uglier. LOL So wish us luck and I will let you how she turns out. Thanks
Plotman	posted 03-21-2013 07:53 AM ET (US) Buff = use rubbing compound Polish = a finer product such as 3M's Finnese-it They are both liquid with abrasives suspended in them - finesse it is just super fine - barely abrasive at all.
Eastport3338	posted 03-21-2013 10:24 AM ET (US) I believe this thread will answer all your questions. http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/004078.html
Binkster	posted 03-21-2013 11:31 AM ET (US) As usual, most folks with limited experience think that the more difficult that you can make a job, the better the results will be, as that thread shows. Fortunately, thats not true. rich
SEAJ	posted 03-25-2013 10:03 AM ET (US) Update. Bad news. Fighting the bad weather,I finally have the hull flipped over, and on the cradle my son and I built. Going over the hull, I discovered some blistering on the aft section of the hull. Funny how a simple projects often turn in BIG projects. Oh well.
Jessielove	posted 03-26-2013 08:45 PM ET (US) I've used the 3M system with great results. They have a nice video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5kfYz9Ybw It was pretty much just as easy as they made it look.