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Author Topic:   Wood Cabinet Door Repair: What Glue

jimh posted 07-23-2013 01:43 PM ET (US)
On our Boston Whaler REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive, below the helm there is a cabinet made from wood. I believe it is mahogany. During our recent cruise we got into some very heavy rain, and the cabinet door and frame received a good bath in rain, driven in by high winds under the canvas top that normally would protect them. As a result, the wood swelled up a bit. The fit of the door into the door frame was very tight.
Unfortunately, on the occasion of trying to open the door near the end of our cruise, a bit too much force was needed, and the outer vertical board of the door separated from the rest of the door. This board is fitted with a groove and the rest of the door fits into the groove. The separation was quite clean, and I can easily put the two pieces back together. I am not much of a woodworker, and I need advice on what glue to use.
On hand at the moment I have:
--West System epoxy, and
--Elmer's Glue-All.
I think these two products represent about the extremes of adhesive strength. I am not sure epoxy is the right adhesive. It might be too strong, and I would have to be careful not to get any on the surface that shows, as it would make the finish quite different from the oiled finish on the rest of the door. Elmer's is probably a decent wood glue, but if there is something better, please let me know.
What would a professional use to restore the two pieces of the cabinet door to one? Can I get that product without buying a $40 tube or applicator? Should I just carefully apply a bead of West System epoxy to the groove and carefully press in the other piece?
DVollrath posted 07-23-2013 02:00 PM ET (US)
Jim,
I'd use the epoxy if you have it on hand. Just pare off any squeeze-out while it is still soft using a razor, chisel, or plane. This will save sanding effort later.
You probably don't want to use Elmer's white glue if the surface does get wet often. Their yellow would be better. I think best would be Titebond III by Franklin. Elmer's may have an equivalent product.
Dennis
saumon posted 07-23-2013 02:10 PM ET (US)
That Elmer's you have is more of a multi-purpose crafting glue. For wood, the best is the carpenter glue. Both Elmer's and Lepage made 2 versions of their carpenter glue; one regular for indoor aplications and another water-resistant for outdoor.
Regular:
http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=87#
http://www.elmers.com/product/detail/E7010
Water-resistant: http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=88
http://www.elmers.com/product/detail/E7290?filterPath=wood%2f
In your particular case, you clearly need the waterproof type. Both type need to dry while clamped for 12 hours and can easily be find at any harware store for around $10 (4 oz.).
saumon posted 07-23-2013 02:22 PM ET (US)
I'd skip the epoxy on varnished wood. With the carpenter glue, you squirt some in the hole, join the pieces by pressing/clamping and simply wipe the excess with a rag. Not so much with epoxy, that need to be cleaned with acetone, thus ruining the finish...
andygere posted 07-23-2013 02:41 PM ET (US)
Titebond III. Waterproof, strong, easy to use, easy cleanup,plenty of working time sandable, etc. You will find plenty of other uses for it, and it's fairly inexpensive. Your local hardware store or lumberyard will have it.
http://www.titebond.com/product. aspx?id=e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af
DVollrath posted 07-23-2013 02:51 PM ET (US)
Oils and surface contaminants need to be removed for any adhesive to achieve its best performance. Epoxy is not unique in this regard.
If the wood is mahogany as Jim believes, and the break looks to be a clean wood surface, cleaning oil or crud off should not be necessary. If it is teak, then cleaning with acetone would be prudent for epoxy or PVA. You could accomplish this using a cotton swab applicator on the tongue and groove.
Any of these choices will produce a lasting joint bond.
Dennis
Binkster posted 07-23-2013 02:53 PM ET (US)
As Andy mentioned Titebond III would be the way to go here. But two other things mentioned here don't make sense. wiping varnished wood with acetone will ruin the finish. Not true, acetone seems to get blamed for everything, it won't soften or dull a varnished piece.
Varnished mahogany or teak will not swell. They have been used as a boatbuilding material as trim and framing for centuries. Are you sure your cabinet door is not made from pine, or maybe MDF board or particle board? Did you buy it at Home Depot? How about a picture of this door?
rich
saumon posted 07-23-2013 03:12 PM ET (US)
I don't know if you have some but a ratchet clamp is almost mandatory for a tight joint. You don't need the professionnal pipe-type clamp and even the cheap Harbor Freight ones do the job, and can be inverted to work as a spreader. http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46809. html
ConB posted 07-23-2013 03:55 PM ET (US)
Titebond III or West System is what I would use and I am a professional carpenter.
Con
Binkster posted 07-23-2013 05:24 PM ET (US)
The term "professial carpenter" is a broad term. Many pro carpenters never deal with waterproof joints. A framer doesn't come into contact with glue at all, except maybe glues in tubes for gluing plywood decks prior to nailing or screwing. Trim carpenters or cabinetmakers generally use non waterproof or water resistant glues. For years the mainstay glue in wooden boatbuilding was resorcinol resin glue, which is a purplish resin mixed with a brown powder. It is 100% waterproof. Epoxy resins have taken the place of resorcinol in wooden boatbuilding nowadays. Actually a tight joint is almost as important as the waterproof glue you use. I would take the door apart and reglue and clamp the whole thing. If a couple of joints have come loose, becuase of water the whole door may be suspect.
rich
L H G posted 07-23-2013 05:42 PM ET (US)
Jim - I use Gorilla Glue (polyurethane glue) exclusively where I need a permanent bond. The bond is stronger than the fibers of the wood itself. For my money, nothing else compares. The repair must be clamped for about an hour, and you have to watch for glue foam-up expansion.
andygere posted 07-23-2013 06:10 PM ET (US)
I would notf use Gorilla. While it is very strong, it is no stronger than Titebond III, but it's a lot messier. It will foam up a d the foam weeps out the joint and must be mechanically removed. You also have a much shorter working time. I have plenty of experience with both, and price is comparable.I
RevengeFamily posted 07-23-2013 07:26 PM ET (US)
Gorilla glue is my glue of choice nowadays. Incredibly strong and water proof. I used Gorilla glue to mend my "Captains Locker" on my 1990 Revenge 22 WT...
Its been back together for 5 years without incident.
The original box is made from marine grade mahogany veneered plywood. I was able to reuse all the panels that make the box.
The door frame is solid Mahogany as is the panel. However the panel is made from glued up pieces of Mahogany.
I use Gorilla glue on all new Mahogany boxes and panels that I have been creating for my Revenge and on my Conquest. I have no complaints.
Norm
wannabe posted 07-23-2013 07:55 PM ET (US)
Well, we have ten posts with ten different opinions. I recently repaired and refinished all the wood on my Outrage 18 with some stunning results. I repaired some loose doors with West system epoxy and followed that up putting three coats of west system with special clear hardener over all the wood. This was followed by three coats of varnish for the UV protection.
I know some here would not like this museum quality look but any excess epoxy from a repair can be sanded off.
Drew
jimh posted 07-23-2013 08:39 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the replies. I don't think I want a super-strong adhesive which will be stronger than the wood. If the door ever breaks again, it would be better to come apart as it did this time, at the joint line, rather than crack and splinter the wood.
I'll look for a tube of Tightbond III, as that seemed to be a vote leader in the poll.
DVollrath posted 07-23-2013 09:59 PM ET (US)
Jim,
Just to be clear, with proper joint preparation, any of the adhesives mentioned (epoxy, PVA/Titebond, polyurethane) will produce a bond stronger than the wood. It's not a bad thing, really.
Dennis
ALAN G posted 07-24-2013 02:01 AM ET (US)
Jim, whatever glue you use, to make cleanup easier, run the 3M blue masking/painters tape down the edge of each part before you glue it. By carefully applying it, you can leave open just the "crack" between the wood pieces. You can wipe off excess and not worry about spreading it onto the varnish surface.
I normally opt for epoxy, although for years resorcinol was excellent too as Binkster mentions. I would also second his recommendation to reglue the entire door unless you simply cannot get it apart easily. If you can separate the parts with light rubber/plastic hammer blows, it is due for reglueing.
Al
Qtrmeg posted 07-24-2013 03:45 PM ET (US)
White or yellow glue won't work worth a fart on previously glued pieces, you should use either Gorilla glue or epoxy,(both of which have the added advantage of filling voids in less than perfect glue joints).
I know you stated that you would rather have something less than an ideal bond but you will with GG or epoxy because your old glue and varnish/oil is the weak link.
My question really has to do with just what type of door you have? Is it a frame and panel door? If so only the frame is glued and the panel floats in the frame - not glued.
Jerry Townsend posted 07-24-2013 06:37 PM ET (US)
In Jim's case and on the boat, I would use epoxy. Given the time and clamps as necessary, a premium wood glue would work too - followed by varnishing.
Another good glue for your boats - is a silicone adhesive - good adhesive, water proof, and a good sealant for electrical connections. ---- Jerry/Idaho
jimh posted 07-26-2013 12:42 AM ET (US)
The door has been repaired. I used Titebond III. In the areas of the tongue and groove joint where I could see old glue, I lightly sanded it off until I got to mostly wood. It seems quite nicely adhered back to a single unit.
Blackduck posted 07-26-2013 12:03 PM ET (US)
Well, I see I am too late, but you did use the right glue. I am using Titebond III for just about all gluing jobs. It is excellent.

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Author	Topic: Wood Cabinet Door Repair: What Glue
jimh	posted 07-23-2013 01:43 PM ET (US) On our Boston Whaler REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive, below the helm there is a cabinet made from wood. I believe it is mahogany. During our recent cruise we got into some very heavy rain, and the cabinet door and frame received a good bath in rain, driven in by high winds under the canvas top that normally would protect them. As a result, the wood swelled up a bit. The fit of the door into the door frame was very tight. Unfortunately, on the occasion of trying to open the door near the end of our cruise, a bit too much force was needed, and the outer vertical board of the door separated from the rest of the door. This board is fitted with a groove and the rest of the door fits into the groove. The separation was quite clean, and I can easily put the two pieces back together. I am not much of a woodworker, and I need advice on what glue to use. On hand at the moment I have: --West System epoxy, and --Elmer's Glue-All. I think these two products represent about the extremes of adhesive strength. I am not sure epoxy is the right adhesive. It might be too strong, and I would have to be careful not to get any on the surface that shows, as it would make the finish quite different from the oiled finish on the rest of the door. Elmer's is probably a decent wood glue, but if there is something better, please let me know. What would a professional use to restore the two pieces of the cabinet door to one? Can I get that product without buying a $40 tube or applicator? Should I just carefully apply a bead of West System epoxy to the groove and carefully press in the other piece?
DVollrath	posted 07-23-2013 02:00 PM ET (US) Jim, I'd use the epoxy if you have it on hand. Just pare off any squeeze-out while it is still soft using a razor, chisel, or plane. This will save sanding effort later. You probably don't want to use Elmer's white glue if the surface does get wet often. Their yellow would be better. I think best would be Titebond III by Franklin. Elmer's may have an equivalent product. Dennis
saumon	posted 07-23-2013 02:10 PM ET (US) That Elmer's you have is more of a multi-purpose crafting glue. For wood, the best is the carpenter glue. Both Elmer's and Lepage made 2 versions of their carpenter glue; one regular for indoor aplications and another water-resistant for outdoor. Regular: http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=87# http://www.elmers.com/product/detail/E7010 Water-resistant: http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=88 http://www.elmers.com/product/detail/E7290?filterPath=wood%2f In your particular case, you clearly need the waterproof type. Both type need to dry while clamped for 12 hours and can easily be find at any harware store for around $10 (4 oz.).
saumon	posted 07-23-2013 02:22 PM ET (US) I'd skip the epoxy on varnished wood. With the carpenter glue, you squirt some in the hole, join the pieces by pressing/clamping and simply wipe the excess with a rag. Not so much with epoxy, that need to be cleaned with acetone, thus ruining the finish...
andygere	posted 07-23-2013 02:41 PM ET (US) Titebond III. Waterproof, strong, easy to use, easy cleanup,plenty of working time sandable, etc. You will find plenty of other uses for it, and it's fairly inexpensive. Your local hardware store or lumberyard will have it. http://www.titebond.com/product. aspx?id=e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af
DVollrath	posted 07-23-2013 02:51 PM ET (US) Oils and surface contaminants need to be removed for any adhesive to achieve its best performance. Epoxy is not unique in this regard. If the wood is mahogany as Jim believes, and the break looks to be a clean wood surface, cleaning oil or crud off should not be necessary. If it is teak, then cleaning with acetone would be prudent for epoxy or PVA. You could accomplish this using a cotton swab applicator on the tongue and groove. Any of these choices will produce a lasting joint bond. Dennis
Binkster	posted 07-23-2013 02:53 PM ET (US) As Andy mentioned Titebond III would be the way to go here. But two other things mentioned here don't make sense. wiping varnished wood with acetone will ruin the finish. Not true, acetone seems to get blamed for everything, it won't soften or dull a varnished piece. Varnished mahogany or teak will not swell. They have been used as a boatbuilding material as trim and framing for centuries. Are you sure your cabinet door is not made from pine, or maybe MDF board or particle board? Did you buy it at Home Depot? How about a picture of this door? rich
saumon	posted 07-23-2013 03:12 PM ET (US) I don't know if you have some but a ratchet clamp is almost mandatory for a tight joint. You don't need the professionnal pipe-type clamp and even the cheap Harbor Freight ones do the job, and can be inverted to work as a spreader. http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46809. html
ConB	posted 07-23-2013 03:55 PM ET (US) Titebond III or West System is what I would use and I am a professional carpenter. Con
Binkster	posted 07-23-2013 05:24 PM ET (US) The term "professial carpenter" is a broad term. Many pro carpenters never deal with waterproof joints. A framer doesn't come into contact with glue at all, except maybe glues in tubes for gluing plywood decks prior to nailing or screwing. Trim carpenters or cabinetmakers generally use non waterproof or water resistant glues. For years the mainstay glue in wooden boatbuilding was resorcinol resin glue, which is a purplish resin mixed with a brown powder. It is 100% waterproof. Epoxy resins have taken the place of resorcinol in wooden boatbuilding nowadays. Actually a tight joint is almost as important as the waterproof glue you use. I would take the door apart and reglue and clamp the whole thing. If a couple of joints have come loose, becuase of water the whole door may be suspect. rich
L H G	posted 07-23-2013 05:42 PM ET (US) Jim - I use Gorilla Glue (polyurethane glue) exclusively where I need a permanent bond. The bond is stronger than the fibers of the wood itself. For my money, nothing else compares. The repair must be clamped for about an hour, and you have to watch for glue foam-up expansion.
andygere	posted 07-23-2013 06:10 PM ET (US) I would notf use Gorilla. While it is very strong, it is no stronger than Titebond III, but it's a lot messier. It will foam up a d the foam weeps out the joint and must be mechanically removed. You also have a much shorter working time. I have plenty of experience with both, and price is comparable.I
RevengeFamily	posted 07-23-2013 07:26 PM ET (US) Gorilla glue is my glue of choice nowadays. Incredibly strong and water proof. I used Gorilla glue to mend my "Captains Locker" on my 1990 Revenge 22 WT... Its been back together for 5 years without incident. The original box is made from marine grade mahogany veneered plywood. I was able to reuse all the panels that make the box. The door frame is solid Mahogany as is the panel. However the panel is made from glued up pieces of Mahogany. I use Gorilla glue on all new Mahogany boxes and panels that I have been creating for my Revenge and on my Conquest. I have no complaints. Norm
wannabe	posted 07-23-2013 07:55 PM ET (US) Well, we have ten posts with ten different opinions. I recently repaired and refinished all the wood on my Outrage 18 with some stunning results. I repaired some loose doors with West system epoxy and followed that up putting three coats of west system with special clear hardener over all the wood. This was followed by three coats of varnish for the UV protection. I know some here would not like this museum quality look but any excess epoxy from a repair can be sanded off. Drew
jimh	posted 07-23-2013 08:39 PM ET (US) Thanks for the replies. I don't think I want a super-strong adhesive which will be stronger than the wood. If the door ever breaks again, it would be better to come apart as it did this time, at the joint line, rather than crack and splinter the wood. I'll look for a tube of Tightbond III, as that seemed to be a vote leader in the poll.
DVollrath	posted 07-23-2013 09:59 PM ET (US) Jim, Just to be clear, with proper joint preparation, any of the adhesives mentioned (epoxy, PVA/Titebond, polyurethane) will produce a bond stronger than the wood. It's not a bad thing, really. Dennis
ALAN G	posted 07-24-2013 02:01 AM ET (US) Jim, whatever glue you use, to make cleanup easier, run the 3M blue masking/painters tape down the edge of each part before you glue it. By carefully applying it, you can leave open just the "crack" between the wood pieces. You can wipe off excess and not worry about spreading it onto the varnish surface. I normally opt for epoxy, although for years resorcinol was excellent too as Binkster mentions. I would also second his recommendation to reglue the entire door unless you simply cannot get it apart easily. If you can separate the parts with light rubber/plastic hammer blows, it is due for reglueing. Al
Qtrmeg	posted 07-24-2013 03:45 PM ET (US) White or yellow glue won't work worth a fart on previously glued pieces, you should use either Gorilla glue or epoxy,(both of which have the added advantage of filling voids in less than perfect glue joints). I know you stated that you would rather have something less than an ideal bond but you will with GG or epoxy because your old glue and varnish/oil is the weak link. My question really has to do with just what type of door you have? Is it a frame and panel door? If so only the frame is glued and the panel floats in the frame - not glued.
Jerry Townsend	posted 07-24-2013 06:37 PM ET (US) In Jim's case and on the boat, I would use epoxy. Given the time and clamps as necessary, a premium wood glue would work too - followed by varnishing. Another good glue for your boats - is a silicone adhesive - good adhesive, water proof, and a good sealant for electrical connections. ---- Jerry/Idaho
jimh	posted 07-26-2013 12:42 AM ET (US) The door has been repaired. I used Titebond III. In the areas of the tongue and groove joint where I could see old glue, I lightly sanded it off until I got to mostly wood. It seems quite nicely adhered back to a single unit.
Blackduck	posted 07-26-2013 12:03 PM ET (US) Well, I see I am too late, but you did use the right glue. I am using Titebond III for just about all gluing jobs. It is excellent.