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Author Topic:   225hp Yam annouced...

Bill D posted 10-25-2000 06:54 AM ET (US)
This should make Merc and OMC take notice... http://www.sportfishingmag.com/articles/new/0,1909,11769,00.html

Bill D posted 10-25-2000 06:55 AM ET (US)
225hp 4-stroke that is.
bigz posted 10-25-2000 08:48 AM ET (US)
Bill it should be awesome --- then so will the price --- chuckle --- humm think a pair would make a nice Christmas present for Amy's Whaler --- only in my dreams heh heh --
Tom
lhg posted 10-25-2000 05:41 PM ET (US)
Since the introduction of the Mercury Optimax engines 3 years ago, Mercury has insisted that these engines outperform equivalent sized four strokes, both in EMISSIONS and in power output. For example, they have advertized that the 135 V-6 Optimax is cleaner running than the Honda 130HP four stroke (less emissions) and 5mph faster on the same hull. The only downside, I guess, is that fuel consumption is probably slightly higher.
The notion that 4 cycle engines, and worse, diesels, in boats are not air polluters is a myth soon to be broken, as it just has been with pickups and SUV's. Marine 4 cycle engines are where automobiles were 25 years ago, and trucks/SUV's still are, with basically no pollution controls on them at all compared to your passenger car, including no catalytic converters. That's right, the family pickup or SUV is a terrible air polluter, even the 2000 models. They say one day on 2 stroke jet ski is the same air pollution as 100,000 miles in a passenger car! Right now the marine industry is fighting to avoid having to put pollution controls and catalytic converters on I/O and inboard marine engines, but they're going to lose.
This stuff will eat horsepower, and eliminate the noisy open exhausts that the go fast crowd lives on. (It's about time!). But it's definitely on the way, and soon. I guess the only reason the government is allowing a delay, is dealing with the converter heat issue on a boat. So where does all this leave the 4 stroke outboards?
Will they too need pollution controls? Are they going to be able to legislate clean 4 stroke inboards, but not clean 4 stroke outboards?
Who knows (certainly not I!).
My guess is that this new Yamaha 4 stroke, evidently a 2002 model, will be a risky venture, with justifying the additional cost and performance trade-offs over a pair Optimax 225's a problem. The four strokes are also having problems competing on power curves, top speed, etc of these clean 2 strokes. I guess that's why Yamaha has FINALLY brought out their own clean 2 stokes in these same HP ranges. They're playing both options. Only time and buyer reaction will tell the story, I guess.
The other issue is reliability. Traditionally, 4 stroke inboards have not been as reliable, or trouble free, as the 2 strokes. About 90% of boats that I see being towed in are I/O's or inboards. Will these huge 4 stroke outboards have the same reliability problems? We'll have to see.
This one ought to get you guys going!
kevin posted 10-25-2000 09:42 PM ET (US)
Oh we will have fun with this!
I think perception is everything. And the 4cycle side is winning the propaganda war on the issue of emissions. Our lake association in ME wants everyone to go to 4c. And my wife just loves our new yamaha 25-4c because "there is no smoke". Problem is, i think, these comparisons are based on the old 2c (carb) technology.
i wonder if the diff's between 2c (injected) and 4c are rapidly approaching negligible in most all categories:
reliablilty - all new technologies suck at first. Both have gotten better quickly.
sound - 4c's are quiet at low rpm but at WOT other factors start to dominate.
economy - 2c's all but caught up? 2c's still have the "oil tax" of about 35cent/gal. (assume 50:1 and $17/gallon)
I'm one of those who a few years ago thought 2c was dead but admit I now have to rethink.
As an aside. Why are I's and I/O's inherently less reliable (I agree with the observation). Do these motors tend to break or just get wet?
Bill D posted 10-26-2000 07:04 AM ET (US)
I would be surprized if any of the 4-strokes were much cleaner than my FICHT. Seems I remember something about one of the western lakes were 4 strokes are required also allow FICHT engines (could be wrong here). Anyway what Larry says in general about the power of the 4 strokes I agree with. What I found interesting about this Yammy 225 is that it is not a modified car engine and is comparable to in weight to our 2 strokes. It will be real interesting to see some head to head test runs with it and the Opti's/Ficht's. I was telling the wife about it and of course the first thing out of her mouth "your not going to trade are you?" At least she phrased it as a question and not a direct order. Maybe there's hope for a jack-plate and flo-scan this year. <grin>
bigz posted 10-26-2000 08:00 AM ET (US)
Bill,
Same points I found interesting --- it is not the typical 4 stroke auto engine design and the exhaust set up sounds very unique -- plus the reduced weight and streamlining.
I also heard that Yam is working on a cat converter for their 2 strokes ---

As my wife (chief financial officer) said --- well we're going to have to give the new Yam at least a year before -- and she was direct --- you even consider trading up --- heh heh --- Tom
triblet posted 10-26-2000 09:45 AM ET (US)
Lake Tahoe banned carbureted two-strokes
(except as an aux on a sailboat), but
allows direct injection two-strokes and
four-strokes.
Chuck Tribolet
triblet@garlic.com

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Author	Topic: 225hp Yam annouced...
Bill D	posted 10-25-2000 06:54 AM ET (US) This should make Merc and OMC take notice... http://www.sportfishingmag.com/articles/new/0,1909,11769,00.html
Bill D	posted 10-25-2000 06:55 AM ET (US) 225hp 4-stroke that is.
bigz	posted 10-25-2000 08:48 AM ET (US) Bill it should be awesome --- then so will the price --- chuckle --- humm think a pair would make a nice Christmas present for Amy's Whaler --- only in my dreams heh heh -- Tom
lhg	posted 10-25-2000 05:41 PM ET (US) Since the introduction of the Mercury Optimax engines 3 years ago, Mercury has insisted that these engines outperform equivalent sized four strokes, both in EMISSIONS and in power output. For example, they have advertized that the 135 V-6 Optimax is cleaner running than the Honda 130HP four stroke (less emissions) and 5mph faster on the same hull. The only downside, I guess, is that fuel consumption is probably slightly higher. The notion that 4 cycle engines, and worse, diesels, in boats are not air polluters is a myth soon to be broken, as it just has been with pickups and SUV's. Marine 4 cycle engines are where automobiles were 25 years ago, and trucks/SUV's still are, with basically no pollution controls on them at all compared to your passenger car, including no catalytic converters. That's right, the family pickup or SUV is a terrible air polluter, even the 2000 models. They say one day on 2 stroke jet ski is the same air pollution as 100,000 miles in a passenger car! Right now the marine industry is fighting to avoid having to put pollution controls and catalytic converters on I/O and inboard marine engines, but they're going to lose. This stuff will eat horsepower, and eliminate the noisy open exhausts that the go fast crowd lives on. (It's about time!). But it's definitely on the way, and soon. I guess the only reason the government is allowing a delay, is dealing with the converter heat issue on a boat. So where does all this leave the 4 stroke outboards? Will they too need pollution controls? Are they going to be able to legislate clean 4 stroke inboards, but not clean 4 stroke outboards? Who knows (certainly not I!). My guess is that this new Yamaha 4 stroke, evidently a 2002 model, will be a risky venture, with justifying the additional cost and performance trade-offs over a pair Optimax 225's a problem. The four strokes are also having problems competing on power curves, top speed, etc of these clean 2 strokes. I guess that's why Yamaha has FINALLY brought out their own clean 2 stokes in these same HP ranges. They're playing both options. Only time and buyer reaction will tell the story, I guess. The other issue is reliability. Traditionally, 4 stroke inboards have not been as reliable, or trouble free, as the 2 strokes. About 90% of boats that I see being towed in are I/O's or inboards. Will these huge 4 stroke outboards have the same reliability problems? We'll have to see. This one ought to get you guys going!
kevin	posted 10-25-2000 09:42 PM ET (US) Oh we will have fun with this! I think perception is everything. And the 4cycle side is winning the propaganda war on the issue of emissions. Our lake association in ME wants everyone to go to 4c. And my wife just loves our new yamaha 25-4c because "there is no smoke". Problem is, i think, these comparisons are based on the old 2c (carb) technology. i wonder if the diff's between 2c (injected) and 4c are rapidly approaching negligible in most all categories: reliablilty - all new technologies suck at first. Both have gotten better quickly. sound - 4c's are quiet at low rpm but at WOT other factors start to dominate. economy - 2c's all but caught up? 2c's still have the "oil tax" of about 35cent/gal. (assume 50:1 and $17/gallon) I'm one of those who a few years ago thought 2c was dead but admit I now have to rethink. As an aside. Why are I's and I/O's inherently less reliable (I agree with the observation). Do these motors tend to break or just get wet?
Bill D	posted 10-26-2000 07:04 AM ET (US) I would be surprized if any of the 4-strokes were much cleaner than my FICHT. Seems I remember something about one of the western lakes were 4 strokes are required also allow FICHT engines (could be wrong here). Anyway what Larry says in general about the power of the 4 strokes I agree with. What I found interesting about this Yammy 225 is that it is not a modified car engine and is comparable to in weight to our 2 strokes. It will be real interesting to see some head to head test runs with it and the Opti's/Ficht's. I was telling the wife about it and of course the first thing out of her mouth "your not going to trade are you?" At least she phrased it as a question and not a direct order. Maybe there's hope for a jack-plate and flo-scan this year. <grin>
bigz	posted 10-26-2000 08:00 AM ET (US) Bill, Same points I found interesting --- it is not the typical 4 stroke auto engine design and the exhaust set up sounds very unique -- plus the reduced weight and streamlining. I also heard that Yam is working on a cat converter for their 2 strokes --- As my wife (chief financial officer) said --- well we're going to have to give the new Yam at least a year before -- and she was direct --- you even consider trading up --- heh heh --- Tom
triblet	posted 10-26-2000 09:45 AM ET (US) Lake Tahoe banned carbureted two-strokes (except as an aux on a sailboat), but allows direct injection two-strokes and four-strokes. Chuck Tribolet triblet@garlic.com