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ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
|Author||Topic: New Motor|
posted 03-29-2001 08:24 PM ET (US)
I am repowering an 1987 Montauk with 2001 70-HP Suzuki 4-cycle (from an 88-HP SPL Johnson 2-cycle). What changes should I expect? Any thoughts?
posted 03-29-2001 08:49 PM ET (US)
You won't have to wear earplugs.
A friend of mine is a Suzuki dealer and a couple weeks ago he gave me an education on that motor. It is sweet.
I am running a Merc 50hp 4 stroke on my Montauk and top out in the mid 30s.
Think you will be a very happy person.
posted 04-05-2001 06:58 PM ET (US)
WOW !!! I'm sure glad I'm not the only one with a Suzuki. you are goin to pay a LOT less for gas,ask any one with a 4 stroke.but the Suzuki is the only one that I'm awre of with electronic fuel injection.the tac comes with the motor. I put mine on a 82 montauk and I have a 26 gal. tank but only need a 12 gal. a 8 hr. trip running at 3 to 4000.rpm 35 to 40 miles I use about 6 gal. are you going to get the other gages ? are you going to do the install yourself? I did mine, easy to do !
keep us posted and good fishing .
posted 04-05-2001 10:59 PM ET (US)
Thanks, Dick and Kim. As soon as I paint the bottom, I'm letting the dealer install it for me. The 2001 comes with the tachometer and also an hour meter and oil change warning. I will be keeping my boat in East Moriches, NY, where we have a tough inlet to get out to the ocean; I wanted a good motor for this.
I also got the six-year warrenty. I looked at other motors and decided this was best for me.
posted 04-06-2001 01:03 PM ET (US)
Last fall I bought a 70 HP 4-stroke Evinrude that was a 2000 leftover. I believe it is a Suzuki with Evinrude decals, however since it was a "deal" engine it comes with nothing except a 1 year warrenty (assuming it's honored).
I plan to have the dealer remove my old engine (1978 Merc 90), plug the old holes, and mount the new. I'll take it from there.
I've learned alot from this site over the winter and here is what I think I'll to to get my '79 Montauk ready for the summer on Cape Cod...
any comments you have on my plans would be appreciated...
1. Install the Special Tach for the engine. I would rather have separate guages to look at (gearhead mentality) but I guess the engine is set up for that custom tach and idiot lights.
2. Install two 7 1/2 gallon Tempo tanks under the seat. Pass on the water seperation filter. Maybe use Merc hookups for the gas line if possible.
3. Use my existing Morse control (with new cables) and put switches in the console for the tilt and trim.
4. Use my existing steering but install Teleflex no-feedback during the summer.
5. Rewire using the many tips on materials and installation from the site (draw up a schematic first).
6. Repair some abrasion on the keel using the West System and the tips I got from this site. Paint with abalative bottom paint that holds its effectiveness when trailered.
then do a little fishing and tackle the teak...this boats had some use...
Oh yeah...I suspect I'll need some kind of a fin on the motor and although the doel-fin gets some good reviews I think the Stingray may hold me on plane at a lower speed so that might be the way I'll go...Picking up the engine in a week or two...Bob M.
posted 04-06-2001 02:35 PM ET (US)
Bob: I'd install the new steering cable and steerer head when you have the engine installed. I think those replacement cables are hard to insert through the tilt tube once the engine is bolted on a Montauk transom. Since you're in salt water, I'd also recommend installation of a Steersman SS grease fitting on the ram end, replacing the original engine nut & seal. Discussion elswhere on site about this.
I'd also raise the engine 1 bolt hole and use a good SS prop. Engine bolt patterns have been standardized for years. You may not need new holes, but don't know what Merc was using back in 1978.
If I were you, I'd also go with larger tanks, which mean fewer trips to the gas dock, less fooling around with switching tank connectors, and extended cruising range. Consider either a single 28 (about $105) or the twin 13's (about $40/ea), both specifically designed for the Montauk seat. With a Montauk, and without a kicker, I can't really see any reason to have two tanks, unless you plan to carry them around for filling. They also make a single 18 that would fit under the seat. Finally, elsewhere, there is discussion on the Moeller brand as a good alternative to Tempo. Your choice, prices are about the same.
Good luck. Sounds like you're going to have a nice setup!
posted 04-06-2001 04:28 PM ET (US)
Bob you really should reconsider the fuel filter.
I've had minimal water accumulation in the filter bowl the last few seasons, but before that had some relatively large quantities of water to drain from the bowl-----enough to have certainly left me stranded.
The last two years I have hacksawed apart my old Racor elements to see exactly what they were doing for me. I found a surprisingly large quantity (about two tablespoonfuls) of particulate matter (kind of a graphite-like sludge).
For what it costs it seems like good insurance to me.
Good luck with your new motor!
posted 04-06-2001 05:22 PM ET (US)
Two items have caught my attention. The No feedback steering and the fuel filter.
In the opinion of the participants, does a 15' sport require no feedback steering?
What is the best way to setup an outboard with a portable fuel tank, with a fuel filter? It would seem that the filter should be mounted to the boat. This would require major revisions in the fuel hose system as it was originally setup for portable use.
posted 04-06-2001 06:16 PM ET (US)
fuel filter? but a water seperator(s/p) the Suzuki is a electronic fuel injection . water in the fuel may pass in carbs. but it will burn the injectors(s/p) a good thing a filter/water sepperator. sorry guys can't spell today .or any other LOL.......
posted 04-06-2001 07:23 PM ET (US)
My Merc EFI's have a smaller, water separating fuel filter right under the engine hood, with a water warning signal. So I assume water must be a critical problem with an EFI engine. I wonder if your Suzuki has this?
posted 04-06-2001 11:08 PM ET (US)
no Suzuki dose not. I know this as I was at the shop where I bought mine and they were repairing one that did not have a water/sep. not even going to try to (s/p)*-*#*/
posted 04-07-2001 06:46 AM ET (US)
A water separating filter is the best investment one can make (IMHO)! I even have one on a 1960 thirteen with 20 hp , but then I tend to go overboard (no pun intended) on some things. Happy Whalin, Clark
posted 04-07-2001 01:48 PM ET (US)
Got it! A water separating filter goes on. About the prop I thought I would get a 13 x 17" pitch aluminum 3 blade, see how I liked it, then buy the stainless and use the aluminum as a spare. The reason I thought of the 7 1/2 gallon gas tanks it that the bigger tanks (two 13 gallon or the 18) wouldn't fit under the seat unless I raise it (which I might do later, not sure). If I'm wrong I sure would like a bigger tank, I'm replacing two 12 gallon Mirax steel tanks which fit great but are now rusted.
Anybody have any info on using the custom suzuki tach on their 4-stroke or can I use separate guages from teleflex? Thanks for your help...Bob. P.S its 45 deg today and cloudy...tomorrow more rain...the cover's not off yet.
posted 04-07-2001 09:34 PM ET (US)
I had a water seperating filter mounted on my transom. The only problem was that salt water rusted the filter and when I tried to change the filter I removed the filter from where it was mounted on the stern, leaving serveral nice holes and a unworkable situation. I remove the water filter, had the holes filled(along with the bildge pump holes and holes from two batteries) and now use a fuel water seperator additive in my gas. The stern is free of clutter and I have had no problems with my 2000 90 HP Ficht.
posted 04-08-2001 05:07 PM ET (US)
RWM ; on my Suzuki DF 70 I swing a 13&1/4 x 18.I tryed a 21,19,17, came up with the 18. the guy where I bought mine let me try diffrent props till I found the pitch I needed. when I payed for the motor I opted (s/p) for paying a extra $100.00 for the Suzuki SS prop. as they come with a allum. and the tac. as far as the gages I have a new set of teleflex gages, let me say that uou might get then to work ? it is possable to use a scamatic (s/p) but I just bought the Suzuki gages volt,trim and hrs. the new out boards use a smart system and the tac, is the hart beat , what I'm trying to say is the tac, talks to the coumputer in the engion. the trim is the most costly, need the gage plus the sending unit. the hrs in the tac. is when you turn the key the tac, will jump up to how meany hrs on the engion... the temp,oil,and so on are in the tac. as lights..
one more thing, the nav. lights are red in the tac, and other Suzuki gages. not so with Evenrud (s/p) they are white YUCK !!! if you use your boat at night like I do in the summer red is the only to go. kim.
posted 04-09-2001 06:25 PM ET (US)
Bob - Regarding gas tanks, I believe the 13, 18 or 28 gallon Tempo models will all fit under the seat. Might want to check that out again.
posted 04-09-2001 08:20 PM ET (US)
[This post is just for administrative reasons]
posted 04-18-2001 07:30 PM ET (US)
can any body tell me how many mph this motor
will go on my montauk
posted 04-18-2001 08:48 PM ET (US)
I believe there are red bulbs - you can buy the red stuff they put over broken tail lights at auto stores and wrap the bulb.
posted 04-19-2001 01:17 PM ET (US)
I had the Evinrude 4 stroke mounted today and I can't believe they put Lag bolts into the bottom holes. The dealer said he had to because the holes are so low on the transom they couldn't through bolt on the Montauk transom. Please tell me if they are sealed with 5200 it will be O.K...Bob M.
posted 04-19-2001 01:23 PM ET (US)
I think you had a lazy dealer. The Evinrude is the same as the Suzuki and they have two hidden threaded holes for this problem. I help my friend mount this Evinrude 4 stroke 70 on a Nauset using these hidden holes. Zack
posted 04-19-2001 01:49 PM ET (US)
Yes you can use the two hidden holes, or you can install an outboard bracket, gain the ability to raise and lower your outboard and not have to drill any additional holes in your hull. Brackets are available at Cabela's or other supply house. I paid $130 for the bracket I used for my new Tohatsu. I did have to drill two additional 1/2" holes in the bracket to accomodate the original hole spacing in my 15' Whaler. Good luck.
posted 04-19-2001 01:50 PM ET (US)
Using lag bolts for the two lower holes, even if they are SS (I'll bet they're just galvanized, which will rust out fast), would never be acceptable to me. The Montauk transom is designed to accomodate the 4 standard engine pattern 1/2" bolts, through bolted. Besides, he should have known to raise the engine about 3/4" or so. Zack is being courteous calling your Evinrude dealer lazy! I'd have him re-finish the transom, and do it right.
posted 04-19-2001 03:24 PM ET (US)
They are stainless bolts, but even so I'm going to check for those "hidden holes" the dealer didn't use and measure things out myself to see how it could have been mounted. I doubt I can get him to refinish the transom for me...turns out he is a jerk...Bob
posted 04-19-2001 07:00 PM ET (US)
You have a bad situation on your hands just waiting to happen. Every time you put your engine in reverse, you will strain the lag bolt holes. The more throttle you apply in reverse the more strain applied. The plywood is not going to hold up to this kind of stress. If you can not get satisfaction from your dealer, I would call Evinrude direct and ask for some guidance. I feel this problem should be fixed before you ever put the boat in the water.
posted 04-19-2001 08:00 PM ET (US)
I would take Jim's advice and start chasing the Dealer. It is interesting to speculate whether Bombardier will have any clout with him, or even care, IF you can reach them. It's looking like the OMC mess really is working it's way down through the ranks, at least with some of the disgruntled dealers. And we wonder why BW is now sending their boats out with the engines already, correctly, bolted on.
He should have given you all the engine papers and manuals, which CLEARLY describe how the engine is to be bolted on. Maybe you could use that against him. I can't figure out why he didn't use the "standard pattern" holes from the prior engine (or was that one not installed correctly also).
I know someone who recently discovered that his 150 Yamaha, installed new by a Boston Whaler Dealer on his then new 19 outrage, used 3/8" bolts instead of the required 1/2" size. A 3/8" bolt has HALF the shearing strength of a 1/2" bolt! This is why, except for engine service, I don't let "boatyards" work on my Whalers at all!
posted 04-20-2001 12:15 PM ET (US)
It gets worse. Examining the installation last night I found he had apparently dropped the engine on the transom and chipped a BIG piece out of the top and back exposing the fiberglass below. Then I looked at where he had filled the old motor holes (he had told me he would coat properly sized dowels with 5200 and press them in and seal with epoxy). The holes were only filled with 5200 adhesive which I managed to pull right out! There's more...instead of using two bolts in the upper mount he used four...that plus the two lag bolts in bottom holes make six new holes in my transom and four old holes from the old Mercury pattern...10 Holes in my transom!
So anyway, if I had launched this way there is no doubt my transom would have rotted out in one season or less...the good news, if any is that I have caught it and can fix it.
The dealer, Eagle Marine in Sagamore Massachusetts, has done me a great disservice. This is not a small dealer and believe it or not the owner himself did the installation. His first offense was dropping the engine on the transom and chipping it badly, exposing the core (he has admitted he did this). The second was bolting the engine on incorrectly (the correct way is clearly detailed in the owners manual I have). And the third was just shooting some adhesive into the old holes which was sure to leak. The first offense could be accidental but he never told me till challanged nor offered to fix it, the second is incompetance, and the third is plain shoddy work and laziness.
posted 04-20-2001 12:25 PM ET (US)
This barnacle is a criminal, or an idiot, either way, you need to make sure he is made to be accountable. I can't believe this guy can do any kind of business in your area. That part of the country has its share of knowledgable yachtsman. I would scream from the mountaintop. I truly hope you get your boat back into some kind of condition you are comfortable with. Good luck.
posted 04-20-2001 01:39 PM ET (US)
I'd take him into Small Claims Court, claiming sub-standard, unsafe workmanship. Hacks like that you can't negotiate with. First, send him a written request itemizing what you need to have corrected, giving him the opportunity to do it properly. Let him refuse you in writing. Then you've satisfied your obligation to him by giving him the chance to make good on his faulty installation.
You will probably have to substantiate your claim by taking the boat elsewhere. I would go to the nearest WHALER DEALER (this will look the best in Court), and get an estimate to have the engine pulled and temporarily stored, have the transom holes properly filled and re-gelcoated, then the engine properly re-installed.
The estimate and subsequent bill will constitute your claim against him in Court. I'll bet you'll win. I wouldn't put anything in writing publically about his operation. You don't want to give his attorney anything to come back against you with in claims court. Keep your own actions proper and professional, and he'll look like the loser that he is.
I think others would be well advised to stay away from these left-over OMC situations until Bombardier gets firm control of the Delearship situation. What are you now going to do about Warranty and other service now that your "local Dealer" has pooped out on you?
posted 04-20-2001 01:57 PM ET (US)
Thats a shame that he did that to your boat. Good luck with getting it fixed. What is even worse is that it is now going to cut into your boating season.
posted 04-20-2001 04:18 PM ET (US)
Good advice. The letter goes out to him certified mail, return receipt, today. Then I'll try to forget about it and enjoy the spring weekend...Thanks again...Bob
posted 04-21-2001 10:52 AM ET (US)
Gee, I'm about to have a manual 2 piece jack plate installed on my '62 13 Sport to accomodate a 20" shaft 4 stroke 40hp Merc. Two local dealers have told me they will need to drill "blind holes" and use lag screws to secure the bottom of the plates. The transom has NEVER been drilled and I am now quite concerned, given the previous posts. What are "blind holes"? Is it possible to through bolt the bottom holes on the 13?
This Whaler is my pride and joy (after my wife and kids..) and I am frustrated by the lack of decisive knowledge by outboard dealers/boat mechanics in the Bay Area that claim to know Whalers. One even said he would use washers to act as shims when mounting the jack plate to account for the slight curvature of the Whaler's transom. Having a fair amount of mechanical aptitude, this just doesn't appear sound.
posted 04-22-2001 08:35 AM ET (US)
Lag bolts have no place on the transom of an outboard powered boat. Engines and jack plates must be thru bolted to the transom. "Blind holes" are drilled through the transom plywood and into the foam core. There is no way to put a nut on the bolts because they are lower than the motor well. When the lag bolts start to loosen up you will have water seeping into the plywood and foam core. Using washers for shims to meet the curvature of the transom is hokey. This totally changes the sheer points on the bolts and increases the chances of sheering a bolt off. The best way to match a flat surface to a curved transom is to have solid angle plates made to fit the dimensions. These can be made at any competent machine shop. You may spend a few more dollars initially but this will eliminate any future problems. I would contact several jack plate manufacturers and give them your transom dimensions and let them know what you are trying to accomplish. Someone should be able to provide you with the proper jack plate and components for your particular installation.
posted 04-22-2001 07:39 PM ET (US)
In filing a small claim action, the first step here in FL is to send a demand letter by registered mail. This becomes a legal document in your action against the plantiff. You should outline the specifics of your complaint, and provide the action you expect to resolve the problem. Then you should conclude with the time period you will allow before your next move, and what you will do if not satisfied, such as "by May 15, 2001, or I will sue you in Small Claims Court." I found a very helpful book in my public library, and a lot of information online, when I almost sued a boatyard last year. I would consider having a marine surveyor look at the boat. You need one who is certified as an expert witness. This will probably sew up your case for you, and the loser will have to pay the court costs, as well as for your witness. I found a local surveyor who appraised the condition of my boat after poor quality work, and documented it. If the problems return, then I still have a way of persuing a suit.
Don't let this guy get away with it! Be sure to do your homework, and find out how each step goes in small claims court.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
PS, as far as the left over OMC, I bought a 90 horse Johnson (99 model) for my 16 foot hull, and so far it's great (17 hours).
posted 04-22-2001 08:04 PM ET (US)
There's lots of good advice here regarding small claims courts. Never open yourself to a countersuit by "slandering" someone or their business even if you're right. I think however, you can report to the media that so and so lost a small claims case for such and such.
What I find most disturbing about this whole matter is how often boat places and mechanics take advantage of boaters. It's so much worse than having your car repaired. I've hear people at marinas say about their competition, "he tried to put you out of boating." A phrase used to describe getting screwed so bad you just want to sell your boat and never get another. Ultimately the boating business is hurting itself by making it too frustrating and expensive for the average person to own and run a boat.
Basically, when it comes to boats, you have to stay on top of people and never relax your guard. Get everything in writing, and deal with complex/costly issues during the off-season. Fortunately, you can always ask the people on this board for suggestions. Good luck.
posted 04-22-2001 10:56 PM ET (US)
Let us get back to the original question because I am thinking of changing my 1990 60hp Johnson with a Suzuki/Evinrude 70 4 stroke. Are they better? Will they bolt on easily? Are they faster? What, if any, are the quirks?
posted 04-23-2001 03:26 PM ET (US)
I got a call this morning from the office manager (owners wife). She wanted to know when I could bring the boat in so they could fix it. I'm nervous about bringing my boat back to someone that treated it so poorly. Any suggestions?. Should I take some pictures of the damage? Should I ask them to detail in writing what they are going to do? Should I detail to them what I expect them to do?...any help would be much appreciated...Bob
posted 04-23-2001 04:10 PM ET (US)
Maybe they're reading this website! If they want to talk, you probably should give them the benefit of the doubt. I would give them YOUR detailed list of everything you want done, then have them sign on to it. If they refuse, tell them you're going over to Nauset Marine and will see them in court! An experienced "glassman" should do the transom work. Talk to him yourself, so he knows what you want. No PL5200 should be used in filling the holes! I would basically have them bring the transom back to new boat, no bolt holes condition (assuming none of the old holes fit the new bolt pattern), inside and out. Then re-drill and install the engine properly. I would REGULARLY (daily) go over on check on the progress yourself.
Be there when they install and hook up the engine. Good luck, it sounds as though you may be getting somewhere.
posted 04-24-2001 08:28 PM ET (US)
Bob, Just my opinion, but this is how I would want it repaired.
Drill out unwanted holes oversized enough to get rid of all incorrect material they put in. Then, appropriate sized hardwood dowels should be glued in with an industrial grade (i.e. West System) two part epoxy ("hardware store" five minute epoxy is typically not completely waterproof). Since they are working on a vertical surface, thickening with an appropriate material, such as "Cabosil" (diatomaceous silica) is OK. I would further apply the epoxy until it is flush with the surface and let it set up completely. Then I would countersink the filled area with a Forstner bit (makes a flat bottom hole) a little larger than the hole diameter, to the depth of the thickness of the surrounding gel coat (use a pre-drilled scrap wood guide block to hold the bit in place so as to avoid "walking"). Then, fill the resulting depression with Spectrum factory matched gel coat repair material following the mfrs. instructions, followed by careful wet sanding & polishing. The result will be a high quality, lifetime repair that will hardly be noticeable to the eye.
Having said this, based upon past performance, I would not trust these guys to do it right on their own. Their bad workmanship may be hidden by the finish coat, only to cause problems later. Unfortunately, as long as they are willing to try, you don't have the option of going to someone else and getting Eagle to pay for it. I would therefore demand that the repair be done exactly as you specify (write down the whole process in detail, pay a qualified fiberglass repair shop/surveyor to review/witness the document), and that you are to be present at all times when your boat is worked on. Get this all agreed to in writing. If they refuse, get your boat fixed somewhere else (the ultimate goal) and sue them in small claims court. Good luck, Larry S.
posted 04-24-2001 10:14 PM ET (US)
I think Anchor 7's advice on filling transom bolt holes is excellent. This would be valuable to someone re-powering from single to twins, or visa versa. 5/8" dowels would probably be a good choice.
posted 04-25-2001 11:18 AM ET (US)
I've started a new thread "Montauk Transom Repair" in the Repairs/Mods section. "New Motor" unfortunately doesn't quite cover it for me anymore :)...Bob M.
posted 04-25-2001 06:19 PM ET (US)
thats good now maybe we can get back to
the new motor topic
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