posted 07-09-2001 06:05 PM ET (US)            

I don't think he was refering to any permanent hull modification.

posted 07-12-2001 02:20 PM ET (US)            

Also some might not know that Honda's warranty is a non-degrading warranty where all the componets are covered during the entire warranty period rather than having items dropped off the waranty over time as with other manufacturers.

Seem that they too are getting into the bigger HP, they have a 200, 220 HP engine coming out in 2002.

posted 07-12-2001 07:34 PM ET (US)         

But, they have one strong suit that works very well in sales, exceptionally smooth idle, the best of any. Has something to do with the crankshaft design.

posted 07-13-2001 12:08 AM ET (US)            

Some one on this forum stated that Honda's are susceptible to corrosion. Using the Google.com search engine, I looked for any shred of support for that statement without success. I did find a couple of unhappy customers who felt that their smaller (less than 30hp) Honda outboards were not as durable as some other brands. But overall, I think there is a very small number of complaints.

posted 07-13-2001 01:59 AM ET (US)         

First of all I never said the Hondas weren't mechanically good and reliable. I'm sure they are, but I have heard about salt water corrosion resistance poorer than other brands. No direct knowledge here. It's just in testing they don't measure up in cost, weight, speed and fuel economy. Every other brand will outrun them and get better MPG doing it. I also think they don't have many that meet the 2008 emissions standards above 50 HP.

Outboards are not I/O's, where size and weight are not as critical. From what I understand in the marine industry, outboards are better off being designed from the ground up. This is almost universally accepted practice. Yamaha's new 225, and indeed all of their 4 stroke outboards, are brand new marine blocks, not from the automotive world. Mercurys' will be the same. I understand Yamaha's 200 has even reversed intake/exhaust porting configurations, nothing like an automotive engine at all.

The criticism that Honda gets from Marine writers is the huge size and weight of the higher HP models, exactly because they were auto engine conversions, designed for other purposes.

posted 07-13-2001 08:28 AM ET (US)            

The buyer seldom can compare two engines at mid throttle or WOT with a load on them; they just compare them at idle!

The HONDA design puts the flywheel under the engine--most outboards have it on top--which lowers the center of gravity and helps smooth out the engine (because the rotating mass of the flywheel is located nearer the engine mounts).

I noticed that YAMAHA explicitly points out that their flywheel placement (on top) "keeps sensitive electronics out of the water."

And there is always is issue of dealer network. Compared to MERCURY and YAMAHA, HONDA's dealer network is a distant third or maybe fourth or fifth.

posted 07-13-2001 07:17 PM ET (US)            

I belive the Hondas are smoother at idle than the competitive brands because they are balanced more than the others. 3 and 4 cylinder engines are inherently unbalanced and the 4 cylinder is the worst. You'll notice that most automotive 4 cylinder engines have a added balance shaft to dampen this. In order to keep the weight down outboards don't have them.
I believe Honda is making them smoother two ways: first Honda is using 3 cylinders to get 50HP while Mercury and Yamaha is using 4 cylinders; second, Honda may be using heavier counter weights on the crankshaft to reduce vibration.

posted 07-13-2001 11:35 PM ET (US)            

The Hondas are designed for marine service, using parts that were tested and proven through racing, endurance runs, extensive testing. How is a crank, pistons, rings, valves, bearings any different in a 4 stroke outboard than it is in a 4 stroke engine for a car. What about have a decent sized oil filter for once? All this adds up to is time tested reliability.

I am pleased that some members of the forum have taken the time to make observations that are relevent, to do research, and to be able to use good logic. Kudos!

If some are to be believed, something that is so bad as the Honda outboard should have disappeared before it's 35 years (to date)production due to its shortcomings and reputation for corrison. Also if the engine cannot stand up to saltwater, why sell the engine to poeple that us it for a living everyday in saltwater and give it a non-degrading warranty? Honda must be losing their shirts on that alone!

posted 07-14-2001 11:49 AM ET (US)            

I’m also hearing some consistent comments about Honda’s costing more and being heaver. Since I haven’t shopped around I assumed that all OB 4 strokes were more expensive and heaver. However, it sounds like Honda is leading in these two areas.
I am also hearing several comments about workboats using Hondas. I can add to that. On my trip down the river yesterday (Mattaponi in Virginia) I saw a dock builder’s boat powered by a Honda. Since these guys make there living on the water and a broken motor equals $0.00 income, you’ve got to give the appropriate weight to their decision to purchase the Honda. I’m also hearing that Honda has been building OB 4 strokes for a long time and I am a believer that you learn from experience, which brings me to my next comment.

It’s surprising that so many longtime 2 stroke OB owners are switching to the 4 stroke motors. As I mention above, you’ve got to appreciate lessons learned through experience. The OB 2 stroke manufactures have been perfecting this technology for some 40+ years. I wonder if the reduction in noise on the 4 strokes is the primary reason?

posted 07-18-2001 10:15 AM ET (US)         

Can't dispute the facts you cited. But here are some others:

In the world of motorcyles, Honda has had several engine design fllaws. Like the one on my CX-500 v-twin; faulty water pump seal. And the one on my VF-700 Saber, valves couldn't be adjusted without re-machining some undisclosed part. And Honda has had some problems in their cars. And last year they had to recall 112,000 lawnmowers because of splitting gas tanks.

Nissan/Tohatsu has had problems with automotive recalls as well.

This is the problem with statistics, taken out of context they can be used to prove any point. How many people last week ate peanut butter? How many had car accidents? Could be very high correlation, so peanut butter consumption is linked to car accidents. At one point in time GM was producing 1/2 of the cars in the world. Most of the cars that were stolen were GMs. Does this mean that a single GM car would be more likely to be stolen than a Ford parked right next to it. If we we take the theft statistics out of context the answer would be yes. But, carefull anaylisys would give a different result.

LHG's point is that given Mercurie's predominant share of the market, especially I/Os, we are bound to see more voulume of recalls. This can't automatically be interpreted to indicate that Mercuries are lower quality motors. And he is correct in that they tend to be heavier and more expensive than other motors. But, are these factual differences worth dissuading one from buying a Honda? That is pure opinion.

Personnally, I think your Dauntless 16/Honda 90 combination is pretty nice. But, even with the need to have my motor replaced, I feel the same way about my Dauntless 14/Mercury 60 combination.

Sean

posted 07-18-2001 02:09 PM ET (US)            

The real truth is in the first hand experiences over time with certian products. Any engine manufacturer will have some problems with their products, most likely after the introduction of a new design. And then it is only through time that these flaws make an appearance and are corrected. So something fresh off the drawing board with the newest technology is not always the best, even if it is lighter or smaller. There must be a period of time for a froduct to prove itself. This is what Honda has, by producing four stroke outboards for the last 35 years. This is not what Mercury or some of the other manufacturers have yet in four stroke outboards.

I had a 5.7 liter Mercruser that used raw water cooling and it was fine. It did use alot of gas though, and it had a proven track record.

posted 07-18-2001 06:16 PM ET (US)         

OMC was selling Suzuki's four strokes as their own, and Bombardier will keep up that relationship.

posted 07-18-2001 08:03 PM ET (US)         

I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. I woudn't rule out a Honda purely on price, weight, or a small difference in perfromance. But, I also woudn't rule out a Mercurey because of newness either. My problem may very well trun into a blessing, and could very well be a small hiccup. Could be a mojor problem as well. Time will tell.

No doubt Honda has the most experience.

Sean