Forum: WHALER
  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  Repower: 18-Outrage (Hypothetical)

Post New Topic  Post Reply
search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   Repower: 18-Outrage (Hypothetical)
newportguy posted 09-04-2002 06:17 PM ET (US)   Profile for newportguy   Send Email to newportguy  
A friend of mine wants to repower is 18 foot Outrage. Presently he has a 140 Johnson on it but the motor is a 1982 and blew a piston. He has decided to repower. With a maximun rating of 150 hp. how would you go and why... Thanks all for your insight. Larry
jimh posted 09-04-2002 06:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Twin 75-HP EFI 4-strokes
whalersman posted 09-04-2002 07:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
150 HP Evinrude FICHT.... (Bombardier)

Why? I am not totally sold on 4 strokes yet. The Ficht engines run clean and are very efficient. Twins would be nice but maybe twice the headaches and expense.

lhg posted 09-04-2002 07:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Assuming he wants to stay with a single, Merc 2-stroke 150 EFI will give him great performance per price. Johnson 150's are good also, but not EFI. If he wants to go "clean", the Opti, Ficht or HPDI 150's would be fine. As for 4-strokes right now, Suzuki 140 or Merc/Yam 115 seem like the best on the market. Honda 130 not recommended because of it's carb technology and huge size & price.

If he can live with 40-42 MPH, I'd go with the Merc/Yam 115 EFI. This will eliminate the oil tank from the splashwell.

JBCornwell posted 09-04-2002 07:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
I agree with Larry, but don't overlook the Suzuki 115 EFI.

Like the Merc and Yammy 115 EFI The Suzi is smooth, quiet and torquey (is that a real word?).

My first recommendation: Suzi/Johnson DF140.

Red sky at night. . .
JB :)

tabasco posted 09-04-2002 08:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for tabasco  Send Email to tabasco     
I myself would go with the Suzuki 140. My only advice to you is to make sure there is a dealer near by for service & parts.

It's unbelieveable to me that this boat is only 12 inches longer than the montauk 170 and weighs about the same and has an additional 60 Hp rating. 150HP vs 90 HP .......Whaler you make no sense.

newportguy posted 09-04-2002 08:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for newportguy  Send Email to newportguy     
Does Johnson make a 140 four stroke....I have not see one yet or heard about it.
Peter posted 09-04-2002 08:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
My recommendation, as always, is to put maximum rated power on the transom. In view of this here's what I recommend:

In the most bang for the buck category:

1st Choice: Johnson 150 because its torqy, fast, cheap (under $10k list price), simple technology (carb'd induction), lightest (375lbs).

2nd Choice: Either (a) Yamaha 150 because its cheap (under $10k list price), simple technology (carb'd induction), Yamaha's reliable reputation, or (b) Mercury 150 SW because its the cheapest (under $9k list price), simple technology (carb'd induction). I lean towards Yamaha because of general reliability reputation and personal experience with one.

In the environmentally friendly 2-stroke category:

1st Choice: Evinrude 150 Ficht because of the low end torque, lightest weight of all DFIs, and belief that Ficht problems on the 150s have been overcome.

2nd Choice: Yamaha 150 HPDI because of Yamahas reputation (can't give it a first choice rating because this engine is a beast at 466 lbs.)

3rd Choice: Mercury 150 Optimax due to the general Optimax product and service reputation, which is in need of improvement in my opinion.

In the 4-stroke category:

Only choice: Suzuki DF 140 4-stroke because it is light weight. Honda 130 is more expensive, needs EFI and needs to go on a diet in my opinion.

In the twins category:

I'm torn between the Merc 75 Classic (generous displacement, but heavy at 305 lbs) and the Yamaha 70 (small displacement, but light weight at 228 lbs). While it is true that the Outrage 18 was designed for twins, I don't think it was designed for twins that weigh over 300lbs each. So the Merc 75 Classic is really pushing the transom weight limit in my opinion. On the other hand, I wonder whether one of the two small displacement Yamaha 70s would be capable of of getting the Outrage on a plane.

No 4-strokes make the twins grade because they weigh too much and cost too much.

Overall: If it were my 18 Outrage, the Johnson 150 would get the job.

raygun posted 09-04-2002 09:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for raygun  Send Email to raygun     
How bout the 135 Ficht Evinrude? save a little dough over the 150 and I bet it would be plenty of power
masbama posted 09-04-2002 10:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for masbama  Send Email to masbama     
Raygun speaks the truth.
PSW posted 09-05-2002 12:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for PSW  Send Email to PSW     
I just sold my Montauk recently and am shopping for a 18 Outrage myself and have wondered about the power options. I went to a big whaler/mercury dealer today and looked at 2 Outrages. Both were haggard. Lots of good Mercury knowledge was obtained though. First off my sister has a 17 Outrage II w/ 150 Opti and outside a couple recalls it runs like a dream. One of the Outrages had no power and I was talking with the dealer whom I have dealt with before and he said the 2003 Opti's are supposed to be flawless. The engineer's claim they will idle like a kitten and hum at top end. Turn key every time. Also they are the cheapest of all the Direct Injection brands, atleast here in the Northwest. Look at the 150 Opti.

PSW

Tom Byrum posted 09-05-2002 01:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom Byrum  Send Email to Tom Byrum     
Twin Yamaha 90s at 261# each would be the perfect setup I think. Twin 70s are fine if 40-42 is acceptable. Great mileage for twins and a great handeling package. It will plane just fine on one engine. I think mine used to do 28 on one engine and I think it was on plane at 16 or so.
raygun posted 09-05-2002 02:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for raygun  Send Email to raygun     
jimh recommending 4 strokes?

Wouldn't two smaller motors be alot more expensive than one in intial cost and upkeep?

Only problem I see with deciding over the 150 Johnson or the 135/150 Evinrude is finding a knowledgeable dealer. The Bomb product is fantastic and the FICHT bugs are worked out, but at least here in the NW nobody knows a darn thing about them. If he is going to really use it and has the dough, the Evinrude is the sweetest way to go. The Johnson will be cheaper and man do I love my new 2003 so far. Ask masbama how he likes his 2002 Bomb. PLUS! He can probably keep his controls if they are in good shape. 1000+/- bucks right there. Peter's first two first choices (not to knock his following ones) are founded on good research and logic. It's a boat. It needs an outboard. Tell him outboard motors are 2 strokes. my .02

jimh posted 09-05-2002 09:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Changed TOPIC; was "What would you repower with?"--jimh.]

The best recommendation is to have your friend get on-line and join the discussion firsthand.

I have no problem recommending expensive, heavy, 4-stroke engines in these hypothetical situations. I just assume, hypothetically, that they won't weigh too much or cost too much.

JBCornwell posted 09-05-2002 10:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
This "heavy and expensive" litany gets tiresome, Jim.

The Suzuki/Johnson DF140, recommended, with seconds, above weighs 410lb and sells in the low $7K range.

That is LIGHTER and LESS EXPENSIVE than most competitors.

Red sky at night. . .
JB :)

jimh posted 09-05-2002 07:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
That Suzuki 140-HP model is a great step in the right direction. It weighs less than their 90-HP variant. We get an increase in horsepower of 55% (90 to 140) and a reduction in weight. If they can keep that trend going the four-stroke will be a big winner.

The only downside to Suzuki is relatively limited dealership support. I truly don't know where I would go to buy one around here. But I like their engines. I like their website. I like their TV shows. They are doing everything right and their market share should be increasing.

Peter posted 09-05-2002 08:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
As a whole, all of the repower choices available to our hypothetical purchaser are pretty darn good,in my opinion. Not to complicate things any further, but, I also recommend that our hypothetical purchaser take into account the softer side, that is, dealer reputation and availabilty of quality service. All of these fine propulsion
units will need service at some point and the ability to get quality service in a timely manner is very important in my view.

Although I personally would employ the Johnson 150, that might not be a good choice for others if the nearest quality service for it is substantially farther away than the nearest quality service for one of the other choices.

JB, based on list prices, the DF 140 is more than the Johnson 150. Do they discount more heavily? Overall the DF 140 doesn't rise high up on my list because it only displaces 124 cubic inches versus 153 to 158 for the Johnson, Merc and Yamaha contenders. That is a pretty big deficit in my opinion and on top of that it's got to use some of its power to open up all of those valves. I would expect that it output is a weak 140 at best. You say its "torquey" but really how strong is the low end torque? To me that attribute might be one of the most important for an outboard. As you know, when you're out in the really rough stuff, the throttle response and low end torque is what really counts, not the BIA certified WOT HP, not the low hydrocarbon emissions, not the smokelessness, not the it so quiet that I can hear the tell tale "pissing". When you're in a pinch, none of that stuff will save your behind. And because this ain't no pontoon lake boat were talking about here but a CLASSIC 18 Outrage built to take more punishment than any of us can handle, you might actually find yourself in some of that rough stuff. I know I have. Thus, I think it's only fitting that it get propulsion partner that can kick some "A". ;)

newportguy posted 09-05-2002 09:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for newportguy  Send Email to newportguy     
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the input....My friend is my family docotor and he has no time to join the group but thanks for the thought... After a lot of research today in town with the local dealers...I think I will be recommedning a new Evinrude 2003 ficht 135 v6.... price here is Nova Scotia would be 12,300 plus 15 percent tax installed. A 150 would cost 2000.00 dollars more... And for the difference in performance I do not think it is worth it. The Suzuki is a great idea but very limited dealers to support in this part of the country.... And Bombardier is giving a three year warranty as well which is really great.

Again thanks for the input.

JBCornwell posted 09-05-2002 11:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
Hi, Peter.

You don't really think that the DF140 is rated without valve train, do you?

I am well aware of what an OR-18 does or doesn't do when the sea stands on edge. I have run one with 150hp and with 130hp, and I have run it where 50 footers wouldn't go (I thought I was immortal in my youth). Twenty HP will not save the posterior of a poor seaman, so I doubt that 10 would.

We can all find scripture to support our point of view, but have you compared the torque curve of the DF140 with other 140hp engines or are you simply parroting what other anti-4 strokers are trumpeting?

Yes, you can buy a carbureted 2 stroke in the same range, maybe even cheaper than an EFI 4 stroke, but you lose the option of arguing the DFI 2 stroke performance to support it.

Oh, well. I am not going to change your mind any more than you have changed mine.

Have a nice day.

Red sky at night. . .
JB :)

gvisko posted 09-06-2002 12:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for gvisko  Send Email to gvisko     
Jb I just got a price on the suzuki 140hp
in long island today they want $9,800 with stainless steel prop. before sales tax.
if this motor can be had for $7000 I will have to shop around .I paid $7,500 for my
suzuki 70 hp 4 stroke in 2001.

gvisko

JBCornwell posted 09-06-2002 08:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
Hi, GVisko.

I also paid $7500 for my Suzi DF70 in 2001.

Before I decided to sell my OR-18 I was quoted $7800 by a local dealer for a DF140. When controls, instrumentation, installation etc. were included he wanted $9200 "out the door".

I have since heard or read of DF140s offered at even lower prices. That info probably came from Bigshot, who seems to find the best prices on engines.

Red sky at night. . .
JB :)

JBCornwell posted 09-06-2002 08:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
Hi, GVisko.

I also paid $7500 for my Suzi DF70 in 2001.

Before I decided to sell my OR-18 I was quoted $7800 by a local dealer for a DF140. When controls, instrumentation, installation etc. were included he wanted $9200 "out the door".

I have since heard or read of DF140s offered at even lower prices. That info probably came from Bigshot, who seems to find the best prices on engines.

Red sky at night. . .
JB :)

SuburbanBoy posted 09-06-2002 09:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
Why not consider one of the new 4-stroke 225's. If the hull can take twin 75's it will be fine with one 225. I am sure a few will youch about the hull hp rating, and for them I point to the GTX with I/O. Its I/O weighs more and was rated at 260 hp with a 5.8 liter V-8. This is the same hull as the 18OR. Just don't punch it.

If this ("hypothetical") MD is too busy to participate in this forum, he will probably be too busy to play with his boat. Then one of us will reap the fruits of his labors some time down the road.


sub

Peter posted 09-06-2002 09:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Hey JB,

Believe it or not, alhtough I'm not a convert, I'm not anti 4-stroke. I just think that it isn't the universal answer to all of our regulatory boating "problems" and I believe that the manufacturers' product offerings are consistent with that view.

No I haven't compared the torque curve of the DF 140 to any other 140. The reference to torque comparison was with respect to the 150s. But, even without a comparison, I have to believe that the substantially larger displacement 2-stroke 150s are going produce quite a bit more low end torque than the DF140. That was my only point.

No, I don't believe that the DF140 was rated without the valve train. My point was poorly expressed. What I should have said is that it seems to me that the valve train is a drag that impacts the ability to produce low end torque. All of the 4-strokes seem to suffer from a lack of low end torque (as compared to their 2-stroke cousins) either caused by the drag or the induction characteristics. Either way, there is a performance cost for being quiet and "clean."

Now that the fine doctor has elected to go with a Evinrude 135, I think it would be very interesting to see a performance comparison between that, the Mercury 135 Optimax and the DF140, on a classic 18 Outrage hull. There is no question that the DF140 should have reliability advantage at this point, but I have to believe that the substantially larger displacement 2-stroke Evinrude or Mercury will produce more low end torque giving a much better holeshot, among other things. As I said before, on balance the throttle response and low end torque attributes of the 2-stroke is more important to me than the previously listed 4-stroke desirable attributes. If the DFI 2-strokes become at least as reliable as the carburated or EFI versions, it seems like they might offer close to the best of both worlds.

As far as reported list price is concerned, the Mercury 135 Optimax is about $300 more than the DF140's, so you can get DFI performance in the DF140 price range.

I'm not trying to change your mind but it seems to me that there is an awful lot of hype with respect to the 4-strokes, and that hype helps support, in some cases, huge price premiums for the 4-strokes. Just trying to be objective with respect to repower choices, that's all.

Bigshot posted 09-06-2002 11:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
The problem with all this BS is you guys DON'T know what you are talking about. One you are comparing a V6 to an inline 4, obviously a v6 will have more torque than a 4cyl. The jonhnson 150 will run circles around the zuki 140.....at WOT. At cruise where we do 90% of our driving, the zuki will burn close to 1/2 of what that 150 burns. 2) there is no 4 stroke "hype". myself, JB, Gvisko, and a few of my friends have all owned 2 strokes and have since "repowered" our same boats from a 2 stroke to 4 strokes and we all say the same thing. So until you actually own one for yourself, do NOT discount what OWNERS are saying. I was skeptical about the 4 stroke thing at first. Now you can't give me a 2 stroke and I have owned over 30 boats.....all with 2 strokes.

MSRP don't mean crap. My 70 lists for $8100, I feel bad for you guys that paid close to list for a 70, but you did'nt have to pay them. Doug Russell up in Mass has been advertising Evinrude 70 4 strokes for close to a year now for $4950. In FL I can get leftovers for $4500. My bud bought 2001 Zuki 115's last year(so current year engines) for $6700. He can get 140's now for about $7400. The Zuki network on the west coast of FL is strong and maybe they are pricing them to compete. I have found cheap engines all over the east coast, I only moved to FL 4 years ago. You gotta shop kids. Calling 3 places in the yellow pages don't cut it. And for those who can't find good deals, shipping is only about $300 for a 90hp. Canada for you northern people is the way to go. Do the research and you will find out that warranty is warranty. Stop sniveling and worrying about what he said...she said BS and just do it. You want to pay more, you can do that as well too. Now I am gonna post some more decent deals in the marketplace.

newportguy posted 09-11-2002 10:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for newportguy  Send Email to newportguy     
Hi everyone,

My docotor decided to go with a 130 honda... will report back at the first cahnce with speed and overall impressions on an 18. Does anyone have this combo ????

jimh posted 09-12-2002 12:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Interesting result. The "friend" apparently ignored all the contributed advice and got a HONDA.

HONDA was only mentioned in the contributed advice as an option to avoid.

newportguy posted 09-12-2002 07:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for newportguy  Send Email to newportguy     
The funny thing is he is basing this on the fact of the accord's engine and the honda atv's that are around.... They have not had many problems with Honda car engines as many people have a great deal of faith with Honda products. Time will tell as he uses the Outrage on the same harbour as I do with the Newport.
lhg posted 09-12-2002 01:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
That Honda 130 is the biggest pig of them all. Old carb technology, grossly overweight, highest priced, and when compared to a 135 Opti or Ficht, dirtier running (2 star vs 3 star), 5 mph slower top end, lower gas mileage, slower acceleration. I doubt if it will outperform a Merc/Yam 115 EFI in any category.

I hope the good Doc does better research in his medical work than he does buying an outboard!

half shell posted 09-12-2002 08:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for half shell  Send Email to half shell     
I have a 50 Honda on my Montauk and love it.Yeah it is heavy, expensive and a carb system.Oh I almost forgot reliable,quiet,fuel efficient,one turn of the key start and for the tree huggers 'enviromentally friendly'.

The owners of the smokey, broken, or worse,running 2 strokes at my marina all wish they had one.

PS other than spark plugs and fluid changes there has been zero maintenance since 1996.

Regards

newportguy posted 09-12-2002 10:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for newportguy  Send Email to newportguy     
Hi lhg,

The new Honda 130 is fuel injected....

http://www.honda-marine.com/bf130.htm

Will still be interesting to see how it runs.

ShrimpBurrito posted 09-13-2002 12:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for ShrimpBurrito  Send Email to ShrimpBurrito     
Has anyone even seen reliability reports for outboards similar to what Consumer Reports publishes for vehicles?
SuburbanBoy posted 09-13-2002 01:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
At about 500 pounds, the Honda 130 is very heavy for its output. And I like Honda's.

It is tough to ignore the Merc. The standard 2-stroke with its V6, 200 hp and about 400 pounds. This could also provide a nice overpowered combination.

sub

Capt_Tidy posted 09-13-2002 11:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
I'll repeat an earlier reply...

Is the guy going to run on a hypothetical ocean or lake?

Ocean... twin 75 or 90s would be nice. You just need that extra engine if your going offshore. Add a nice setback for added bouyancy to help with all this extra weight and extra fuel.

Lakes... why not bring on the 225... similar weight and wow... no lack of go.

In either case... the developing rule of thumb about weight/overpower/rating (about 35-40% over the rating seems to be okay... reaching up to 50% on boats over 22+ feet) and the Mercs seem to be the favor of the year.

I loved the Honda when they first hit the market... and I am so happy that I didn't buy that 22 foot Glacier Bay with twin Honday 130's.

Seems like a no brainer.

Now in the real world... what does the wife say? How much of the college fund can we use?

SuburbanBoy posted 09-13-2002 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
There is an interesting shot of a modern cat with twin 130's towing a sunken boat. It is in the Honda news section. They claim that they have superior torque at lower rpms which allowed them to sucessfully tow this sunken skow.

link: http://www.honda-marine.com/14954.htm

BTW it was a Glacier Bay 2640 Cat

sub

lhg posted 09-13-2002 04:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I have no particular problems with Honda. Everyone I've seen seems very smooth and quiet at idle. Their owners all like them.

But this was a thread about doing some research and asking for comparisons on all attributes of an engine's performance and cost. I was not aware of the new EFI system, certainly a big improvement which catches them up with the rest of the field. If smooth quiet idle and solid dependability is the first and overwhelming concern, the Honda 130 would be in the running. We didn't know this. But when you look at overall performance and fuel economy attributes that may be of importance to others, it doesn't compete very well. I don't think some of the other companies (Merc, Yamaha, Suzuki) options are really that less dependable to make it the standout choice, given inferior speed and economy, and high weight and bulk.

newportguy posted 09-20-2002 07:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for newportguy  Send Email to newportguy     
Well it finally was installed, and we took the Outrage out with the 130 Honda this evening. Extremely disappointed with the low end on the motor. Not much grunt on the bottom end. Actually it struggles to get on plane with a full tank of gas and 2 people on board. Once the engine starts to rev out and with the motor trimmed in all way it gradually builds enough power to lift the hull onto plane about 15 seconds. The motor is quiet at idle but not as quiet as I thought it would be. At wide open it reaches 5600 on the tach with 2 people on board and trimmed up. Do not have top speed yet as the motor is not broke in. But for first impressions if it had of been my boat I would have went with the 135 Evinrude. I will get a picture tomorrow of the boat sitting in the water with the Honda on it so you can see what the weight does to the static trim of the boat. Maybe we I will have some GPS data for speed as well. The prop on the boat is a 19 pitch 3 blade stainless steel.
boxers posted 09-21-2002 11:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for boxers  Send Email to boxers     
Well got here a little late but two comments

1) the Honda 225HP motor weighs 85lbs more and is the one I would buy for an 18ft outrage.

2) the low end will improve with break in time-this is a given.

After 20 hours let us know how the boat is handling.

SuburbanBoy posted 09-22-2002 11:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
My thoughts as well. Does not have to be a Honda, just one of the newer lightweight 4's. Again, the hull has been delivered with an automotive V-8 in the past. Why all the whimpering about "Over Powering"?

BTW, break-in and proper prop will make a difference.

sub

lhg posted 09-23-2002 02:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Why do I feel like I wasted my time contributing to this thread? Well, maybe someone else can benefit from it. Thanks, Larry, for the update report. I agree with you that a good DFI 2 stroke Ficht or Opti 135 would have been the way the go here if solid performance was desired.
Bigshot posted 09-23-2002 04:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I agree with you Larry....great post.....keep up the good work! Call me....we'll do lunch!
jimh posted 09-24-2002 01:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
We have now moved from the hypothetical to the real.

For follow-up, see:

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001120.html

Post New Topic  Post Reply
Hop to:


Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.