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Author Topic:   Performance of 25 outrage with 225
JimU posted 09-22-2002 12:01 PM ET (US)   Profile for JimU   Send Email to JimU  
After shaking hands and verbally agreeing with a seller on a 22 outrage that I was to pick up this weekend, seller backed out at last minute. Boy am I P-O'd. Not to worry however, As I used to say in my college days, more than one beaver in the pond. I'm now looking at a cherry outrage 25 (1983 model) with a mariner 225 ofshore. Question any experience with performance of 225 on OR25? Seems like many are fitted with twin 150's. Engine has 65 hours. any comments on 225 mariner offshore model. Thanks, JIM
David Ratusnik posted 09-22-2002 05:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
JimU-225 on a 25'OR- Underpowered, it's a slug. I know a guy with a 22'OR, Cuddy plus Whaler Drive and the boat can't get out of the way of itself. Weight, power, need more than 225 on that 25' hull. kThe boat needs twin 150's. .03 David
Sal DiMercurio posted 09-22-2002 08:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
If the boat had another 225, then she would be right.
No way is a single 225 going to work.
Hell, I run a 200 on my 20' outrage & it's about 1/2 the weight of a 25'.
Sal
Fishcop posted 09-22-2002 10:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
JimU,
I have a single 225 Optimax on my 1987 25' Outrage cuddy w/T-top and bracket.
Loaded with 140gal fuel and as many people and as much gear as you want, the boat cruises at 30 and WOT is over 40.
Enough power for me, but some like more.
Of course, sea-trial the boat for performance and see if it will fit your needs.
Good luck and sorry about the 22'...
Andy.
Sal DiMercurio posted 09-23-2002 12:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Fishcop, my buddy has that same exact boat, but with an i/o 454 over 300 hp duoprop, & it can't even get close to 40.
I find it pretty hard to believe your getting that speed out of a 225 on that particular boat, it's a heavy bugger.
Sal
Fishcop posted 09-23-2002 01:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
Hi Sal,
I am just providing factual data to the members of this forum. I am very objective and honest in all aspects of this forum.
Sorry that you feel otherwise.
Andy.

tully_mars posted 09-23-2002 09:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for tully_mars  Send Email to tully_mars     
My 96' Outrage 21 with a 225 Evinrude will run in the 42 knots, almost 50mph. A 454 i/o would weigh a lot more than a single outboard and cause the boat to drag more. Probably why Sal's speed is not where the O/B's are. Trim and other factors to may play a part.

(Numbers from Furuno DGPS)

Bigshot posted 09-23-2002 10:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
A 454 duo slop is about 1200lbs...maybe more. I could see where that is a factor, especially being they come in 310hp and up, but it should do better in my opinion. Bud hada 23 seaCraft which weighs about the same as a 25OR and she would run about 40+ with a single 225.
Capt_Tidy posted 09-23-2002 12:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
I'd go for it... it's a hell of a boat and the 225 will give you great range and lots of power... more engine is nice but 65 hours! Just do it. Its a wonderful boat. Fishcop has the Opti 225... which as he will admit is maybe slightly under rated. Based on his numbers it acting more like a 250? Like women, every setup will be different so you need to do a trial run and see.

In year or so you can always repower and sell the 225... or add another.

JimU posted 09-23-2002 12:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
Appreciate the replies and advice. Here is what Chuck bennett said "The max hp is 300 and the 25' needs a minimum hp of 115 in order to plane
satisfactorily with a light load.
I'd go by the person that actually owns a 25'...
Topspeeds with a 225 should be about 40-43mph (depending on conditions).
Regards,
Chuck"
Capt_Tidy posted 09-23-2002 12:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
Almost forgot... FYI

Some of the 25'Outrages have/had a crack problem near the tank fittings - port side... there is plenty of information if your search the repair forum. FIshcop and other couldsend you the notice from whaler. The older ones including my 1982 appear pretty solid... it could be an age thing, stress thing? more likely a hit or miss thing?

I'd read the threat on the 25" crack prior to purchase of trail run.

The repairs sounded $$$.

JimU posted 09-23-2002 12:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
P.S. to my last post.Chuck sent me a spec sheet. It shows two 25 models an outrage cuddy, loa 22-3 beam 7-5, wt 3350, max hp 240, min hp 85 and a 25 OR loa 24-7, wt 3000, beam 8-0, max hp 300, min hp 115. Strange, the smaller but heavier hull is rated for less hp than the larger, lighter hull. I guess in the 80's BW made ttw 25 hulls. The one i am considering is the larger of the two. Comments? JIM
JimU posted 09-23-2002 01:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
Capt Tidy, how is your 25 powered? performance? Do you recall the thread on the crack problem? thanks Jim
Fishcop posted 09-23-2002 01:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
JimU,
Look at the Repair/Mod section for the crack.
I bumped the thread back to the top.
Andy.
Capt_Tidy posted 09-23-2002 01:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002574.html

My 1982 is a great boat. Every time we are out I am impressed with it and how it feels. I never have to yell at the kids to sit or worry about waves etc... we can carry kayaks, extra coolers, etc and still have room for everyone and the dog. And we are very dry. Except for the odd wave... I've never even had a water splash. The 25 is a great size and looks great at any dock and better in the water. It looks huge at the dock... I'd say its the best size except for it's engine needs... but what do I know.

On the performance end, I have a dog of an engine... I can tell you that I can cruise all day a 25 knots at 3000 rpm with my old 1980 235 Johnson... I think top end would be in the low 40's, maybe 45 at best (empty and down a wave) based on what I've got. But that is pushing the rpms a bit and doesn't yield to long engine life.

I think Fishcop has it about right. 42-43 knots WOT is pretty fast in anything but flat water. More importantly a nice cruising speed (rpms around 3200 - 3500) at 30 is about what a 225 would give you. With twin 150s... the crusing speed maybe a little higher... maybe high 30s, twins 225 cruising would be maybe low 40s. Other know this stuff better.

I'm looking for a new engine or engines. Because I'm in the ocean... I would love to do twins but $$$. I'm looking at used twin 225s Opti right now but its a bad month for $$. Maybe next pair.

But every time I hit the fuel dock I wonder about a nice new 250 Yamaha (whatever is biggest and lightest) or whatever... I actually stalling a bit to see the deal with the new Merc 4 strokes. We do a lot of harbor putting... I'd hate to have $20,000 worht going to waste on the back just to go to breakfats. And its not cheap keeping fuel in the tank... with twins it will be worst. I have often wondered what twin Suz 140's would be like... I hear these are pretty strong... and light?

With drag and weight in mind... if you do twins, I think you need to go at least with twin 200hp to justify the extra wieght and drag... else a lonely 225 or 250 is pretty much the same. It would be nice to cruise at 40 plus but with twins doing a weekend run to Catalina at roughy 4 gallons per mile... say an easy 75 miles if we go bar hopping... that's an expensive date.

I'll let the expert take over... re: engines... but don't hesitate on the 25', its a great boat.

JimU posted 09-23-2002 01:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
Thanks
Barry posted 09-23-2002 02:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
The first set of specs is for the 22 OR except the weight should be about 2,050.

I believe that there were at least 6 different 25 Outrage variations at one time or another: 25 OB, 25 WD, 25 Cuddy OB, 25 Cuddy WD, 25 SeaDrive, and 25 IO.

The weight of the 25 OB was 3,300 lbs. The Whaler Drive added 250 lbs. I think the Cuddy added 200 lbs.

Bigshot posted 09-23-2002 02:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
You can do twin 140's Zukis for about $15k with shipping. A nice alternative and will be great on gas......lighter than twin v6's.
Barry posted 09-23-2002 02:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
I can't believe I forgot the "other" 25' model which was the 22 Outrage with Whaler Drive! LOA was 24'2" and weight was 2,300.
JimU posted 09-23-2002 02:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
Barry, I just double checked the spec sheet chuck sent me. It was as i said in my post although you are right,the OR 22 has the same specs as the first ones I refrred to. I'll forward Chuck's email to you. It is wierd that the 22 specs are listed for the 25 OR cuddy, except for the weight. Who Knows??? a mistake in the spec sheet?? JIM
Capt_Tidy posted 09-23-2002 04:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
While we have this thread going...

Anyone running twin 140 zuki's on a whaler?

Mybe we need a new thread?

Bigshot posted 09-24-2002 10:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Guy in marketplace has twin 115's.....somebody e-mail him and get some answers:)
bsmotril posted 09-25-2002 09:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for bsmotril  Send Email to bsmotril     
Check out the current trailer boats magazine. They compare an Outrage 24 rigged with Twin Opti 135s against the same boat rigged with a single Yammie 225 4 stroke. The results might suprise you. I have a Conquest 23 with all the options including Hardtop rigged with a pair of 135 Optis. The boat will cruise nicely at 3mpg at 3200 RPM and 24 mph. Will stay on plain down to 2800 rpm and 18mph, and WOT is 43-45 mph. The 150 Opti is the same sized/weight platform, with a 1:1.78 gear vs the 1:2 in the 135hp. I disagree that you need twin 200s as a minimum. With torquey twin V-6s, you have your power in the low-midrange where you need it most for good economy at cruise. I don't think you would be satisfied with the performance of twin 4cyls on a boat that big though.

BillS

Sal DiMercurio posted 09-25-2002 07:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Capt Tidy, I really must dissagree with what your thinking.
There is absolutly no way, a 25'Whaler with 1 single 225 is going to give 30 mph at 3,200 - 3,500 rpms.
It would take a 21 pitch prop to give that, & at best a 25' Whaler w/225 can twist, might be a 15 x 15 [ at the very best ] so you would need to turn approx 4,200 - 4,400 rpms to get 30 mph., thats a long way from 3,200 rpms.
My 20'[ really 19'10" ] - 1980 Outrage is only 1,600 lbs & rated at max 175 hp, i'm running a Ficht 200 hp thats putting out 222 hp at the prop, twisting a 14.25 x 21 [ Sacramento river prop ] & thats where i'm getting about 30 mph, at 3,200 rpms.
When I run my ocean prop, [ 14.25 x 19 ] then i must twist 3,600 rpms to get 30 mph.
A 25' outrage is a hell of alot heavier then my 20 & 1 single 225 hp is an under power for sure.
Sal
thebone12 posted 09-25-2002 07:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for thebone12  Send Email to thebone12     
I personally think a 225hp single is enough for most people, On the east coast people run 25 ft parkers with pilothouses, nice boats but much heavier than a whaler, I see them all the time with a single 200hp, 225 and mostly 250hps. I like singles better (twins are double trouble), a 225 hp is good but the 250hp would be perfect.
lhg posted 09-25-2002 08:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
As I have said several times, in the entire period that BW made the 25, all versions, since 1981 to 1993, including the CPD versions, there is not one single photo in a Whaler sales catalog showing the boat powered with a single. They clearly designed the boat to be powered with twin 150's, period. Because BW was affiliated closely with OMC, there are a couple of photos showing the boat with twin OMC 140's. This V-4 was never a great engine, however, and was light on power compared to a V-6.

The Whaler Drive versions or the 25 were often shown with twin 200's. They never showed a Whaler Drive model, any length, powered with a single, either. The Whaler Drive models even had a re-inforcing strut right down the middle. The Dealers who rigged singles, usually for pricing points, had to remove this factory installed bar.

To be blunt, single engine power on a 25 is an El Cheapo solution, showing up more recently as people buy the boats used for low prices, and don't want to spend a fortune on new engines. This is certainly understandable, and probably works OK. But, an offshore hull like this needs twins in my estimation (and Boston Whaler's, evidently) to do this great boat justice.

On all of the smaller Whalers, the single engine pitch can be effectively made, but not on a 25.

eaglet1122 posted 09-25-2002 10:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for eaglet1122  Send Email to eaglet1122     
Guys and Gals, one must first have a standard to measure by. Are we all using GPS, Loran, water tube, paddle wheel, or the old lick the finger method? Next is determining the load weight for different rigs [gas, gear, # & size of people, bolted on extras]. Then I am sure that with the same boat and same engine our numbers will become more accurate and to true life. Consider the idea that some older boats may have water in the hulls which will change factory weight specs. Personally my boat runs great with a single Mariner 225 and needs no more power even on following seas. GPS and loran were within 2 mph of each other, flat day, 40 gal [+/- 10 gal],straight line for 1-2 miles, one person 260 lbs, no gear speed read between 43-47 mph. Cruise same day 3400 rpms 28-32mph. Argue you may but you will not change my view of this rig. As far as pictures of boat shown with twin screws and saying that is their original intention can be chalked up to marketing [interest in engine companies] or legal reasons. A 25 is marketed for offshore or rough water better have Two engines for safety so someone does not sue. This debate can goes for days and never find rest so be at peace knowing I am right. Please find the humor in that statement.
Tight lines,
Stan
Capt_Tidy posted 09-26-2002 12:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
Thanks eaglet1122 for your performance specs... they seem to parallel Fishcop and others with similar boat/engines.

I so happy everyone is in perfect agreement... makes it more fun.

It seems that a couple of these beasts slipped had singles bolted on as new, mine included with the 235.

What was the biggest single available in the early 1980s???

El Cheapo... you've been talking to my wife! I'm the cheapest man alive but still looking for used twin 225s (and a bank with poor security!).

Bigshot posted 09-26-2002 11:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Bigest single in early 80's was the Merc 300hp 6cyl. Heavy and not dependable...it only lasted a couple years. In 85 OMC debuted the 300hp V8 which had a similar fate.
Capt_Tidy posted 09-26-2002 01:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
So JimU.. did you buy it?
JimU posted 09-26-2002 03:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
I am confident we have a deal. Plan to pick it up shortly. Thanks for all the advice and some times contradictory info/opinions. That's a good thing. JIM
Sal DiMercurio posted 09-29-2002 10:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Bigshot.
In 89 i tested a boat for the navy, a 30' Outrage with twin Johnson 300s,.
They needed it as a fire boat & it had to be able to run from Port Chicago in West Pittsburg, to Hunters Point in San Francisco in no longer then 1 hour, [ about 55 miles.
We made it in 40 minutes [ no load just 100 gallons of fuel ], cruised at 60 mph with bursts of 70+ mph.
Yep, those engines were gas hogs, but man would they scream at 6,000 rpms twisting custom 15 x 23 cupped s/s props.
I don't remember the make of prop, but we experimented with 4 different sizes.
Sal
JimU posted 10-21-2002 12:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for JimU  Send Email to JimU     
Picked up the 25 OR this weekend.Sellers were Stan Simpson, his dad and brother Joe. They are great guys, real gentlemen with impecable integrity. Boat performs as described by Eaglet1122, Fishcop and Capt tidy. JimU
hauptjm posted 10-21-2002 01:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Sal,

A fella' around the corner from my home has one of those overpriced rocket racers (about 21ft. LOA), and it has an OMC 300. Wow! It's huge. I can't say I've seen one on a fishing/center console/runabout type boat. I just assumed they were for the go-fast crowd.

dfmcintyre posted 10-22-2002 08:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Uh Larry, I'm assuming that your not including I/O's in your blanket statement?

:) Don

lhg posted 10-22-2002 01:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Got me on that one, Don. I guess that the hull does not have room for twin I/O's, and there have been a few catalog pictures showing single Mercruiser 454 I/O's in 22's & 25's, including the Temptations. Sorry about the mis-information. I was thinking outboards, with blinders on, the subject of this thread.

As I said before, it appears that the overwhelming choice of Classic Whaler power on boats 21-25, for participants here, is single engine.

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