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Author Topic:   Ficht de-carb
BabySitter posted 04-03-2003 09:01 AM ET (US)   Profile for BabySitter   Send Email to BabySitter  
I am considering doing the de-carb routine on a '98 Johnson Ficht 150. Anyone have any pointers or tips ? One web site I visited calls for 6 cans of tuner - that seems like overkill. The OMC tuner can seems to indicate that one can is enough.

JB

Bigshot posted 04-03-2003 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Hell a half a can will work.
NEVER SCARED posted 04-03-2003 01:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for NEVER SCARED    
Babysitter

The OMC can states a 2 second press of the spray per cylinder @ 2 seconds apart, then 1 20 second press. You can do about 5 v-6 outboards per can.

BabySitter posted 04-03-2003 04:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for BabySitter  Send Email to BabySitter     
Thanks,

I'm going to shoot her Saturday !

JB

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-03-2003 04:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
JB, i'v done this many times & theres many different ways to do it, but myself & a very knowlegable Bombardier tech agree that 1 can is plenty & the best method weve found is, pull the plugs, spray in each cylinder enough so it's real wet inside, do the next & so on, then turn it over by hand until your sure it has saturated the entire cylinder & piston. if needed use another can to fill the cylinders [ while the engine is at full tilt or horrizontal ] & allow it to set overnight, this turns the hardened carbon into liquid & the next day, let the engine down & turn it over by hand until all the liquid has been blown out or went out the exhaust system, then using an air hose, blow the rest out.
Put the plugs back in. index them but be ready to shut the engine down as you start it as it makes the engine want to over rev, just shut her down if she starts to over rev & do it again & possibly 3 times before it burns it'self out.
I'm against just filling the water seperator or filter with the decarbon juice because i feel it gets burned off as soon as it's squirted into the cylider & dosen't get the chance to liquify the hard carbon.
Engine tuner by bombardier or seafoam [ at your local auto supply ] really does the job.
If by chance you decide to run it through your truck or auto, be prepared to litterally smoke out "ALL" your neigbors & don't be surprised if the fire dept shows up.
Man it smokes "BIG TIME" for about 15 minutes, but really makes the engine idle & run much smoother.
Sal
rwill1 posted 04-04-2003 06:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for rwill1  Send Email to rwill1     
The best procedure is found on boatsetup.com:

http://www.boatsetup.com/Decarb_FICHT.html

There is a wealth of Ficht info on that site.

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-04-2003 08:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Will, you must be kidding, that guy is nuts.
7 cans of Engine tuner at $8.00 a can every 50 gallons of fuel ?????
I do it the way the guy who "teaches" the Bombardier techs, told me to do it.
All you have to do is read the directions & it tells you how to do it,....7 cans of engine tuner ???????plus 2 days to do it.
Will, if thats what you think is right, God bless you & good luck cause your gonna need it.
Sal
John from Madison CT posted 04-04-2003 08:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for John from Madison CT  Send Email to John from Madison CT     
Sal: That procedure was really designed for the early Fichts, which make the name Ficht Bomb a household word.

They were blowing up left and right from severe carbon build up. It was so bad that a normal 1 can decarb. didn't do the job.

I don't think he would agree that this is necessary for newer Fichts.

Bear in mind that that 7 Can decarb was writtin a few years ago.

John from Madison

rwill1 posted 04-04-2003 10:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for rwill1  Send Email to rwill1     
I don't own a Ficht, but a 2 day procedure is almost always recomended, especilay if you run questionable oil. I use 2 cans on my V4.

I have not had any problems as a result of following my dealer's prodedure, which is a 1/2 can per cylinder version of the boatsetup.com method. He follows the 1 can prcedure for all Fichts, but does concede that it is overkill on some of the motors that have used Ficht or BioD oil exclusively.

By the way, if I did have major problems, I would see my dealer, the fella who rigged my motor in March 1970. 120 PSI for 32 seasons speaks to the quality of his advice. So no luck has or will be needed.

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-04-2003 10:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
rwill, the question asked was about FICHT engines.
If you own a FICHT & run anything but the recommended Ram oil, shame on you & expect to have problems.
As far as the 7 can deal, i'v never heard of it & when i ran a 150 carbed Johnson [ 91 ] all my info came from the guy in charge of omc in Calif, plus the guy that taught all the omc techs in Calif., so i really don't swallow the 7 can BS for any of the engines.
I'v used Engine tuner since "before" it came out for the public to use, & it was never recommended by omc to use 7 cans....
Just because the guy who wrote that BS method, surely dosen't make it right.
2 Days & $60 later to decarbon an engine is pure BS.
Sal
John from Madison CT posted 04-05-2003 07:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for John from Madison CT  Send Email to John from Madison CT     
Sal,

With all due respect to the OMC engineers who give you a method of decarboning an outboard, they also designed the Fichts, so I personally take their advice with a grain of salt.

Decarboning earlier carb'd OMC's is a completely different animal altogether. Remember, Fichts carbon'd up so bad that the 50 hour recommendation was not nearly enough.

These engines were better at converting petrochemical (gas/oil) products into pure Carbon then actually pushing boats.


John from Madison

gss036 posted 04-05-2003 02:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for gss036  Send Email to gss036     
I picked this method up a while back and have used it. Easy and works just great on my 1989 carbed 200hp Mercury. I had the can&hose and just bought the proper fittings. Had to buy the Honda/Merc fitting to fit my engine, but worked great since I have a 15 hp Honda.

Tip for the Week
Do-It-Yourself Engine Tip; A Simple and Cost Effective Way to De-Carbon an Outboard
By Capt. Bob Dunkelberger dunk75@comcast.net
This works for Carbed, EFI, Ficht, HPDI, Opti-max and even 4-strokes... and should be administered after every 50-60 hours of use.
First you need a separate small fuel tank. One of those 3-gallon red Tempos works well or an empty gallon milk jug in a pinch, but it might be a bit messier.
I use Seafoam over the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) stuff like OMC Engine Tuner or Mercury Power Tune. Note: in the last few years they changed the formula and you have to let them sit up 12 hours. Who's got time for that? Seafoam does the job in 15 minutes and can be purchased from NAPA, Car Quest or other auto stores.
You'll need 3/4 gallon of gasoline and one 16oz can of Seafoam for each engine. Don't forget to add 3oz of oil if you are pre-mixing in a carbed engine. Use a 3 ft piece of fuel hose off the small tank. Connect this tank to your engine by pulling off the main tank fuel hose from the intake side of your water separating fuel filter and plug the hose off the small tank onto that fitting. Or you can separate the fuel line on the tank side primer ball, so you can still use your primer. If your engine has a fuel plug then you will also need a fuel plug on the smaller tank's hose.
Start the engine, let it warm up and start pulling the mix into the engine. You may have to increase the idle to keep it running once she gets loaded with the Seafoam. Run the engine 15 minutes at the dock or just cruising around under 2500 rpm's. Then shut it down and let it sit for another 15 minutes.
Restart the engine; the smoke you see is the carbon burning off. Do the whole thing again and let her sit again for 15 more minutes. If she smokes after the second time do it again.
I've never seen one still smoke after three doses. (I bought a Bronco two years ago that had 95,000 miles on it. When I used Seafoam on it I had the neighbors hanging out of their front doors looking for where the fire was after I started it the first time there so much smoke)
The gallon mix should be just enough to do this 3 times. You don't need a wide-open throttle and you don't need to change the plugs. The plugs are cleaned at the same time as the combustion chambers. My suggestion is that every 50-60hrs is the optimal time to change plugs in most engines.
I cleaned an antique Evinrude once that had a 1/4" of solid carbon on the exhaust chamber walls by running a 1/2 gal of the aforementioned mix through it. Seafoam, a great product, has been around since the 1930's and it's what they used when they were burning straight 4 stroke 40SAE oils in outboards.
For you guys with the 4 stroke outboards? Those engines work 10 times as hard as any auto engine ever will and they too will carbon up. Too many are under the assumption that it's totally the 2 stroke oil that causes the carbon, Wrong... it's also the additives they put in the fuels today. The carbon inhibitors in 2-stroke oil are there for this reason also. Remember when gasoline used to smell like gasoline, today it smells more like bad cologne.
For those guys that like to work the carbon treatment by spraying it down the carbs, Seafoam also comes in spray can called Deep Creep. It's the same stuff under pressure and notes on the can, "Oxygen Sensor Safe". After that, if your engine manufacturer recommends a daily additive treatment then do so. The tank and hose are a one-time purchase and the Seafoam is only costs $5-6.00 per can.
Note: Capt Bob Dunkelberger is a Marine Surveyor in New Jersey. Please feel free to contact him at dunk75@comcast.net with any questions.

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-05-2003 06:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
John, the omc engineers did "NOT" design the FICHT engine.
The FICHT engine was designed & made in Germany, then omc bought it.
The problems with the early ficht engines was not carbon, it was only the 150 & 175 hp - 60 degree engines that blew, the 90 degree 200s & larger didn't have the problems of the 150s & 175s, so there gos your carbon excuse.
Decarboning a carbed engine can be done by my 12 year old grandson, it's a no brainer & done in just a couple hours, this also takes in the waiting time for the solution to melt down the hardened carbon.
Dunks method is good, but i feel the solution gets burned off before it even gets the chance to attack the carbon.
It needs to sit on the carbon for a while & soften it so it can be blown out the exhaust.
Remember, not all the early FICHT engines had problems, only the 150 & 175 size powerhead.
Sal
andygere posted 04-07-2003 02:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
I add OMC Carbon Guard additive or the Mercury equivalent (techron) to every tank religiously. Is it necessary to go through the decarb process as well? I also use Mercury Quicksilver oil instead of the off-brand stuff. When the heads were off my Merc 200, it was very clean, almost no carbon build-up at all, and my mechanic suggested it was because of low hours.
Sal DiMercurio posted 04-07-2003 09:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Andy, you still need to use it.
Even the 4 strokes make carbon.
Hell, run some through your truck & you wont believe what comes out, but if you run it again through your vehicle right after doing it for the first time, nothing comes out.
Sal
andygere posted 04-08-2003 01:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Decarb is cheaper than outboards, so it sounds like I better get some. What's the consensus on frequency? 50 hours? 100 hours? I do almost all my trolling on the kicker, so low rpm time is minimal on the 200. Are the plugs a good indicator of when it's time to decarb?
Sal DiMercurio posted 04-08-2003 11:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Andy, I do mine every 75 hours.
The gap for your FICHT is .28, not .30.
These engine really make short work on plugs, the gap increases real quick like to .45 in 100 hours.
Sal
andygere posted 04-08-2003 12:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Sal, I don't have a Ficht, I have a carbed Merc 200. 75 hours sounds reasonable though since I want this motor to last.
lhg posted 04-08-2003 03:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Any what you want to use is Mercury "QuickClean". It will keep your cylinders completely de-carboned, and carbs clean. My Mercury mechanics swear by this stuff, and I first started using it when my 1989 200's were new. when the head gaskets were pulled for replacement, the cylinders were like new inside. A bottle is about $8 (unless you get it West marine!) and it treats 70 gallons of gas, your whole tank. Use it every 4th tankfull and you will have no worries.

Once a season, you can run a can of Mercury "Power tune" though the carbs.

lhg posted 04-08-2003 04:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
That shoud be "Andy" not "Any".
andygere posted 04-08-2003 07:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Larry,
When I used up the last of my OMC Carbon Guard, I bought some Quick Clean from my Mercury mechanic. I couldn't think of the brand name on my earlier post. Do you know of anyplace that sells it in bulk or at discout? I think I paid at least $8 for the bottle.
bsmotril posted 04-08-2003 10:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for bsmotril  Send Email to bsmotril     
I am curiuous if anyone has ever had problems after doing a de-carb? I had a 91 Merc 175 carbed engine. With 670 hrs, I treated it using the method of pulling the plugs, tilting the engine up, then soaking overnight. Cranked without plugs, replaced plugs, then took it to the lake. It started and idled find. When warmed up according to the temp gauge, I went to 3500 rpm and planed out. 10 seconds later, bang, knock, knock,....clang and engine dies and locks up. Pulling the head revealed melted metal on one plug and a piston top that had detached itself from the rest of the pill on or around the first ring groove. This was about the 5th time I had decarboned, and it went fine before. I used the OMC powertune and always burned Merc oil. Near as my mechanic and I can figure, a piece of carbon caught under the ring and the ring snagged a port.
BillS
Sal DiMercurio posted 04-08-2003 11:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
I doubt it was a piece of carbon as the solution would have melted it in an overnight set.
One big mistake is running it at a high rpm [ 3,500 ] until it has burned completely out.
You should let the solution set for as long as it takes to completely melt the carbon, [ preferably overnight ] turn it over "BY HAND" not with the starter as some of the plugs may not be grounded to the engine & it can cause problems if turned over with the starter.
Then replace the plugs & let it idle for 15 minutes to blow the crap out before giving her much throttle.
Don't think you have to really give her lots of throttle to clean her out, because you don't.
After about 15 minutes of idle or max 1,500 rpms, then take her for a normal ride cause the carbon is now gone.
Many people feel they have to run her wide open asap to blow the carbon out & thats just not true.
Sal
bsmotril posted 04-09-2003 10:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for bsmotril  Send Email to bsmotril     
I did crank with the starter and with the plugs out to get all liquid out of the cylinders. After starting, I idled for 15 minutes to get out of the no wake zone and into the main lake. From there, I took it up to 3500 rpm and that is when it let go. This is the exact same way I had done it 4 times previous without any problems.
BabySitter posted 04-11-2003 11:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for BabySitter  Send Email to BabySitter     
So ... how important is the carbon guard if you only run Ficht Ram oil. First time I used the carbon guard, the exhaust had such a powerful stench that it made my kids sick - have not used it since.

Sal - is the air hose part of the sequence that important ? I'd need to trailer a fair distance to an air source.

JB

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-11-2003 03:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
JB, by using the air hose, it blows almost all of the liquid out.
No, you don't have to use an air hose but if your running a FICHT instead of a carbed engine, the FICHT will over rev when you start her, just be prepared to shut her down real quick so she dosen't run over 2,000 rpms.
You may have to do this 2 or 3 times.
I'v been informed by probably the most reliabe scource that ven though you use Ram oil, you still need to run carbon guard & decarbon.
You know, these engines cost a ton of money so I do as the teacher says.
Over 600 hours on my 200 FICHT & she runs beautiful.
Sal
BabySitter posted 04-11-2003 05:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for BabySitter  Send Email to BabySitter     
Sal,

Do you use the OMC carbon guard or something else ... hate to be a puss but that stuff stinks, especially with the curtains up. It kind of swirls up into the cockpit. Any other brands you know of that are less noxious.

By the way - I bought my used 18 OR with the 150 Ficht ... despite dire predictions about it being a 'bomb' etc. It has been a great motor - starts first bump every time even after sitting for months, is quiet and the fuel economy is great !

JB

kglinz posted 04-11-2003 05:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
JB
I'm certainly not an expert or a Doctor, but if exhaust is swirling into the cockpit the stink is the least of your potential problems. The Carbon Monoxide is clear and odorless and that will get you.
Kemp Lindsey


Sal DiMercurio posted 04-11-2003 10:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
I don't think he's talking about exhaust, but maybe he is.
I don't ever smell it.
Yamaha makes "Ring free" & merc makes Power Tune.
They all do the same thing, but I stick with Carbon Guard.
Sal
BabySitter posted 04-12-2003 08:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for BabySitter  Send Email to BabySitter     
Yeah, I believe it is the exhaust - it is not constant enough, I think, to be a CO issue but is like that effect you get on a diesel sport fisherman when slow trolling on a flat day. Just that occasional whiff gets you after awhile. Anyhoo - I'm going to give it another try after hearing from Sal's 'reliable source'.
fjjpal posted 04-21-2003 11:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for fjjpal  Send Email to fjjpal     
Sal,
My engine is still stored and has the fogging oil in it. Before I attempt the decarb process, should I start the engine first and burn off all the fogging oil or can I do it all in one process? Spray the decarb juice in the cold cylinders right on top of the fogging oil that's in there and let it all burn off at the same time?

How do you turn the engine over by hand?Thanks
Frank

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-22-2003 12:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Frank, I can't tell you how to de-winterize your engine because I live in Calif & never had to, but I do winterize my engines in Alaska [ gas & diesel ].
I would get the fogging oil out & get the engine warm before decarboning.
To turn the engine over by hand, remove all the plugs & just turn the flywheel by hand, no compression, so it's real easy,........turn it clockwise.
Just press your hand on top of the flywheel & turn it.
If your engine is carbed, start the engine with the air silencer off [ breather ], spray into each carborator about a 3 second burst as fast as you can, like don't pause between carbs, keep spraying over & over until the can is almost empty, then try & flood the engine out with the last of the can, if she wont die, kill it & let it sit an hour, then turn the engine over by hand with the plugs out to remove the excess, then re-install the plugs & & start her up, let her idle a while & then go for a little ride, no need to run her wide open yet, let her clean herself out first.
I prefer to spray it also into the cylinders after running it through the carbs & let it sit overnight.
Sal
fjjpal posted 04-22-2003 10:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for fjjpal  Send Email to fjjpal     
Thank You. I'll give it a try.
Frank

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