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Author Topic:   Whaler Drive vs Notched transom -- stress
mustang7nh posted 04-18-2003 08:20 AM ET (US)   Profile for mustang7nh   Send Email to mustang7nh  
I was wondering the logic behind rating a 25 classic hull as 300 max hp without WD and 400+ with WD? I would imagine the stress on the transom would be just as great as hanging twin 200s right on the transom- am I correct in this assumption or should this idea be avoided? I'm looking at a 25 Revenge with twin 150s (notched) and I like the boat but top end is a bit weak in my opinion. I'm wondering if I should pass and wait for a WD version to be for sale or am I able to increase the power on this version at some future date. Thanks.
lhg posted 04-18-2003 04:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
The 450HP Whaler Drive rating comes from the 30" additional length of the unit, which is added into the formula.

The notched transom boat, I am convinced, will handle twin 2-stroke 200 carb/EFI's, since in both Yamaha and Mercury, the 150's and 200's are virtually the same engine & weights. 200 HP Optimax, Ficht and 4-strokes not recommended because of large size and weight. I run 200 EFI's on mine, and the boat handles it just fine. The big shortcoming of the notched transom is the 20" shaft length, meaning if you want counter rotation, you will have to install either transom jack plates, or a full transom bracket, so 25" engines can be accomodated.
A 26" setback Armstrong bracket can nicely be installed on a 25, to accomodate the twin 25" engines, any HP rating. But expect to pay about $22,000 for this upgrade, with new 200's.

I recently saw a fairly new 25 Guardian with twin 200's on it, but the boat was produced at the factory with a 30" transom (for 25" twins). My guess is that most of the new 22 & 25 Guardians being made are now done this way. The 22 in particular has needed this higher transom for years.

mustang7nh posted 04-18-2003 07:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
What kind of speeds are you getting on yours with twin 200s? cruise/WOT? My handheld didn't work so I didn't have true speeds when I sea trialed the 1985 25 revenge with twin 1994 Johnson 150s. But I would gestimate that WOT was 40mph. It certainly wasn't taking your breath away. Ran well and ride was awesome. I love the 25 foot hull. Thanks
bwguardian posted 04-18-2003 11:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for bwguardian  Send Email to bwguardian     
Might better check the boat for water intrusion. My 25 Outrage (standard transom) with twin Mercury 150's (not couter rotating) push the hull 53 mph (1/8 fuel capacity, no gear, and me). I know that Revenge can't weigh that much more to make a 12 mph difference.
Fishcop posted 04-19-2003 12:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
I have a 1987 25' Outrage Cuddy w/T-top.
Full tank (140gal) and lots of stuff, single 225 Optimax on a bracket moves her 40+MPH.
The boat may need closer inspection.
andygere posted 04-19-2003 12:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Mustang, get the GPS and take another ride. When I first took my Outrage 22 out on the bay, I didn't think it was moving too fast. When I looked at the GPS, I was surprised to see I was doing 39 MPH with lots of throttle left. The ride compared to my Montauk's ride really faked me out. These bigger, heavier boats don't feel every bit of chop and the sensation of speed is not there like in the smaller hulls. It really can fool you.
lhg posted 04-19-2003 07:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Since the Revenges are 700# heavier, and with all of that weight in the bow, there is no way a Revenge will be as fast as an Outrage.
Given same HP, I would assume a Revenge to be 3-5 MPH slower than an Outrage.

Andy's point is well taken. Larger boats feel slower. An aircraft carrier at 35 knots is not the same as a Montauk at 35 knots!!
I even notice this difference between an 18 and 25 Outrage.

I also note that all responders to this thread are running fairly new Mercury's as opposed to the older Johnsons. In addition to brand differences, engine mounting height, prop choice combinations can easily make a 5 mph difference. I have seen an appalling number of Whalers really poorly set up by the engine installer. No wonder the factory is doing it now!

Tee tops are real top speed killers, and radar arches and set canvas also have an effect. My radar arch cost me 3 mph off top end, from 63 to about 60.

mustang7nh posted 04-20-2003 11:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
lhg- am I getting the info correct that you have a 25 Revenge with twin 200s and it hit 63? Do you feel that the "floatation" that the Whaler Drive offered was effective at offseting the further setback weight?

Does anyone think that weighing the boat does a good job of estimating any water intrusion? Or are the scales at the local landfill too unsensitive to notice small differences?

Also, I've just heard about moisture meters which can sense moisture trapped in the hull, does anyone have any experience with those?

In reference to the speed issue- yes I will check it out with a handheld gps that works this time. In some fairness, I suspected that the larger boat- smoother ride created a perceptual difference to my 20OR and second we were going downwind in two foot chop and 15-20mph winds which further reduces sensation. When we turned around I didn't run it wide open but it certainly felt much faster at cruise now that the wind was in your face. The engines also weren't peaking out. They would only get 5100rpm and the boat had me, another guy, and 1/4 tank. Props were reconned once.

I put a bid in subject to verification and final inspection etc. Now we'll wait and see. Thanks for the input.

homey posted 04-20-2003 12:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
Mustang, I have a 25' whaler outrage/cuddy/whalerdrive. Its rated at 450hp. I have twin 1989 150 Johnsons that tops out approx 45mph.(plenty of speed for me)I have a large hardtop, gear and 4 batteries to handle the motors and vast array of electronics, and lights. (Its a heavy outrage.)

The revenge is a heavy boat too, If its not trimmed out properly at high speed that may explain your 40mph guess...Though 40ish sounds fine to me...

If your worried about water intrusion. Was the boat kept in the water? All whalers have some water intrusion, somewhere. Make sure all the holes are sealed... Don't waste your time weighing the boat.(unless it has hundreds of holes and leaks like a collander) You will never get a accurate measurement because they all have different weights when outfitted etc.(If that boat topped out at 30mph I would be suspicious)

The whalerdrive is a great option and Im glad I waited for this boat. I seatrialed a standard notched transom 25', It was nice but the whalerdrive was great...Good luck!

jimh posted 04-20-2003 04:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
LHG's boat is not a REVENGE, it is a 25-OUTRAGE.

There are many threads that discuss the idea of weighing the boat to determine moisture content, so it is probably not a great idea to begin that discussion over again here for about the tenth time.
I don't think that weighing the boat would be much help unless it was 500 pounds or overweight. It is impossible to know what the exact dry weight ought to be.

Moisture meters are discussed in other threads about Water Intrusion.

If you are really curious, drill a small hole in the hull bottom where you think there is entrapped water and see what comes out.

homey posted 04-20-2003 11:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
Mustang, I don't think that seller would want holes drilled in his boat...I don't trust moisture meters either. The accuracy is very limited when checking a foam filled hull. The bottom line is, if the boat is solid, rides well, and performs decently with the power. Then the boat is most likely fine...
mustang7nh posted 04-21-2003 07:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
homey, I like your common sense approach. I tend to agree- but when I become the buyer versus the current owner I tend to get overly circumspect.

Thanks for everyone's advice and encouragement.

doobee posted 04-22-2003 12:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for doobee  Send Email to doobee     
Twin 150's should be ample for that boat. I'd make sure you know why they're only turning 5100 RPMs.

A whaler drive model has extra buoyancy to support bigger motors, and a full height transom to help keep the water out.

The Whaler drive is definately a better boat with a quieter, and smoother ride. You also get more storage space and a nice swim platform.

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