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  Worthwhile Motor Read? E-TEC?

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Author Topic:   Worthwhile Motor Read? E-TEC?
Chap posted 04-23-2003 09:14 PM ET (US)   Profile for Chap   Send Email to Chap  
Hello,
I read too much, I think I'm beginning to learn about motors.
This caught my attention and would probably benefit others like myself. Is this E-TEC?
Will this technology be the green, lightweight, dependable motor Classics crave?

www.snowtechmagazine.com/articles/parrallel.html

Thanks
Chap

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-23-2003 10:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Chap, good read.
This is what i'v been telling these guys on this site who think the 4 strokes are God sent.
If they would just look into how much better the DFI 2 strokes are, they might not rambble on & on about how bad they want one.
The truth is, the 2 strokes are very much alive & well & out perform the 4 strokes by a looooong shot plus better fuel economy & less emissions & far more power for the same hp rating.
Sal.
Bigshot posted 04-24-2003 09:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
True Sal but unlike your beloved DFI technology, us 4 strokers are not blowing up powerheads all across the world. The only people I hear rambling on about their "God sent" engine is you.
PMUCCIOLO posted 04-24-2003 11:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
DFI engines, despite their touted economy, reduced emissions, and power-to-weight ratio, are NOT reliable. The Ficht, Optimax, and HPDI engines have all exhibited serious reliability issues, often times resulting in catastrophic failures. I've read several ads of "1,000 hours and not a problem..." but I think that those are anectodal cases of individuals who have factory-backed support. The majority of users (recreational boaters) have experienced tremendous losses (financial, time, and headache) on engines using this technology. Why are many law-enforcement and commercial operators going "back" to the EFI engines?

As far as four-stroke versus DFI performance, may I direct your attention to the article "Power Shootout" in the May 2003 issue of MotorBoating. The figures speak for themselves.

PM

acassidy posted 04-24-2003 12:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for acassidy  Send Email to acassidy     
True that DFI motors have had blown many powerheads. But compare that now with the actual number of 2 strokes vs. 4 strokes on the water. It is probably around 10,000 to 1. This is the 1st year of the big 200-225 4 strokes. Mercury out sells all other makers. They just purely have the market and are punching out motors more than anyone else. I see as many or more older Evinrudes and Johnsons on the water than all 4 strokes combined. 10 years from now we will have a better way to judge, and we will be able to look back and really see which motor stood the test of time. I think SAL is on the money this one. This is only my opinion though. Archie
Bigshot posted 04-24-2003 01:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
DFI is not a new technology just like 4 strokes are'nt. My VW Jetta has a Direct injected Turbo diesel in it and she runs flawlessly and so do the other TDI diesels(50+mpg:). Where I think DFI is flawed is in the 2 stroke arena. Reason being if my TDI VW runs lean on an injector due to a computer malfunction or clogged injector, etc, my engine will lose power, I will notice it, a check engine or injector light will flash and I will have it serviced, fixed, and back on the road with no issues(nice run on sentence huh). If the same thing happens on a 2 stroke at higher rpms, by the time the buzzer goes off and you yank the throttle back, you just scored the cylinders because lean condition means lack of oil. Lack of oil means BOOM! If a DFI motor runs the way it should, I BELIEVE it would be the best outboard made. Problem is life aint perfect. A slight mistake on an internal oiling engine is no biggie, on a 2 stroke it means BOOM!

Sure DFI is more powerful, slightly lighter and almost as quiet and fuel efficient, but I am not convinced yet. Am I convinced on 4 strokes? So far so good from what I hear out there, don't know anyone who is not satisfied. EVERYONE I know with a DFI outboard(except Sal and another friend who only has 30 hours on his HPDI) has said he will not buy another one.....yet.

If I was buying new(150hp+) it would be a HARD toss-up between a new FICHT(e-stroke whatever)and a 4 stroke. Warranty and price would move me one way or the other on the fence. I would not buy a conventional 2 stroke over 70hp just because they burn too much darn fuel. My 70 4 stroke burns 60+% less fuel than my 88spl at the same cruise speed. Top end is within 3mph so........

PMUCCIOLO posted 04-24-2003 01:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
The comparison of two-stroke to four-stroke numbers is not valid. This discussion examines the differneces between DFI two-stroke and four-stroke outboards. Conventional (carbureted and EFI) two-strokes have long track records and undisputed reliability in most cases.

PM

Chap posted 04-24-2003 02:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chap  Send Email to Chap     
Hello,
I was hoping the article might also provoke some motor discussion on the merits of SDI, as I am ill equipped.
Is SDI, Semi-Direct Injection, a viable application of technology with the potential to overcome the issues that DFI and four strokes provoke so debate about?

Thanks
Chap

Chap posted 04-24-2003 02:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chap  Send Email to Chap     
Shoot, and I keep telling my son to properly proofread. I don't think he reads this site yet, so I'm safe for the moment.
Sal DiMercurio posted 04-24-2003 08:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
From 1997 to 1999 the 150 & 175 FICHT engines were trouble, but that has been cured long ago.
I don't know who your talking with Bigshot about Evinrudes & Mercs, but your really miss-informed.
True the Merc opti had their problems, but it looks like thats also been cleared up.
I see alot of Evinrudes & Mercs here in Calif & I have yet to see 1 single blown power head.
Me thinks your living in the past.
When I see my buddy with the 23 Scout & 225 Yamaha 4 stroke getting 2 mpg, ....well, the numbers speak for themself.
Hell, my 1991 - Johnson carbed 150 got 2 mpg, & cost $12,000 less....some things not right some place.
Sal
jimh posted 04-24-2003 11:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Chap,

The article you found is VERY informative, about the best I have read regarding marine outboard engines. There is an enormous amount of information in there. I printed it out and have been re-reading it trying to absorb it all.

Whalebones posted 04-25-2003 12:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whalebones  Send Email to Whalebones     
Just bought a new EFI 4-stroke, not installed yet. I,m in Calif. and had to choose between 4-stroke or DFI 2 stroke. The dealer I went with has sold both engines (both same brand) and steered me away from the DFI 2's . He has had some very upset DFI customers with serious warranty repair work.
I think Bigshot is correct about the lubrication problem, no crank oil and not much in the gas in order pass EPA requirements. Everything has to be right on the money.
This is not to say I won't miss the punch of the 2-stroke and weight to power ratio, I will, but I spend alot of time on the ocean and reliability is critical.
PMUCCIOLO posted 04-25-2003 01:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Sal,

You are, indeed, correct in pointing out that something's amiss: Your buddy's Scout must have a problem. The F225 on the Grady White Tournament 225 gets about four MPG at 3,900 RPM's doing 29 MPH.

It is good to know that you have had success with your engine (as reflected in your emphatic responses), but I shall not embrace DFI technology until the engines are consistently reliable.

A few of my colleagues would be happy to discuss blown DFI two-stroke powerheads with you, one of whom had both of his 200 Optimax engines blow and one whose 225 Ficht blew. Another friend's HPDI fouls plugs so ofen that he carries a spare set of plugs with him. The body of evidence (both anecdotal and in the boating literature) suggesting faulty reliability in DFI outboards is growing. Turning a blind eye can be expensive.

With the estimated cost of a 2003 F225 hovering around $14,500 (and considering the time value of money) where did you find a new 150HP outboard in 1991 for $2,500?

PM

Bigshot posted 04-25-2003 09:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
2mpg my eye! Boating just did a report on a 27' boat with twin 225 4 strokes. at 28mph it burned 12.5gph combined. That is 2.25mpg with TWIN 225's.

A 115 optimax at 32 mph running 4k burns 5.9gph which is 5.4mpg.....not bad but the 115 4 stroke did 6.4mpg and was only 3mph slower on top end(48 vs45).

My good friend bought 2 brand new 2001 200 Ficht and has blown 3 powerheads so far. Under warranty but he regrets selling his 1991 200 Rudes that he never had a problem with. Another friend has 2 225 optis and has also blown 3 powerheads under warranty. Another friend has a 90 ficht and has numerous issues with it but no blown powerheads. I have a 70 Evinrude, my bud has a 60 suzuki and 2 115's, JB has a 70, etc and none of us has even had a hiccup yet. Misinformation.....maybe but Boating, powerboat, and trailerboat mag are where I get my information from which is a pretty good reference in my opinion.

whalernut posted 04-25-2003 05:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalernut  Send Email to whalernut     
I have a 1973 85 h.p. Johnson and it is such a beast, can`t kill her :) I love the fact that I know there is plenty of oil in that tank lubricating her very well. She is still very strong and doesn`t smoke all that bad unless I let her idle for a long time, but she sucks gas like an F14 Fighter Jet!! I would never trust or pay all of that money for high pressure direct injection. I would go 4-Stroke EFI with complete confidence. i may even go with a 2-Stroke mixer again, I just trust them :) Jack.
Sal DiMercurio posted 04-26-2003 01:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
PM, my buddy paid $18,000 for his his 225 - Yamaha 4 stroke, [ installed, plus guages & binnacal ], I paid $6,000 for my 1991 - 150 hp Johnson.
Bigshot, i'm litterally a river rat & work on alot of engines for my friends, I'v only seen one 150 hp 1999 FICHT with a blown powerhead.
I'm in my buddies OMC Bombardier dealership constantly, & have "NEVER" seen a 200 FICHT of any year with a blown powerhead.
You have 2 friends that have blown 6 between them,3 mercs & 3 Evinrudes, come on BS arent you stretching it a bit far now.
The only probllem they had with the early 200 hp FICHT engines was, the clamps weren't big enough for the injectors, now your trying to bs people by saying 1 guy blew 3 - 2001 - 200 hp Ficht engines,....i'm sorry man, I just don't believe you.
Yes, the 2001 Optis had problems, but those are now cleared up......2 guys, 6 blown engines...... do they use Walmart oil by chance?,....I still don't believe you.
Sal
jimh posted 04-26-2003 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
My dad can beat up your dad.

My dog is smarter than your dog.

Anyone care to talk about that interesting article mentioned in the first posting?

Sal DiMercurio posted 04-26-2003 11:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Jim, your right.
Sal
PMUCCIOLO posted 04-26-2003 01:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Not really.

PM

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