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Author Topic:   25-Foot Whalers: Single versus Twins
ron3637 posted 09-28-2003 01:05 PM ET (US)   Profile for ron3637   Send Email to ron3637  
[Revised question] Will either a classic Boston Whaler OUTRAGE/REVENGE-25 or a newer 255 CONQUEST perform well having only one outboard engine, not two?
OutrageMan posted 09-28-2003 01:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
I am not sure I understand your question. If you are asking if a 25 Outrage (classic) can run on one engine the answer is yes. Many were outfitted with a 300 hp OMC. Or are you asking if they will they plane on one engine in a twin set-up? What hp are we discussing here?

Are you also asking for a compare and contrast essay of a classic 25 Outrage single engine preformance vs. a post-classic Conquest and its single engine preformance?

A few more details and a less ambiguous question would help.

Brian

ron3637 posted 09-28-2003 04:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for ron3637  Send Email to ron3637     
Let me clarify; I meant to ask if a classic 25 foot whaler or a 25 foot conquest would perform well having only one outboard engine not two? thanks
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-28-2003 05:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Ron, In my [opinion], the 255 CONQUEST will not perform "well" with a single engine, unless it were a 300-HP HPDI Yamaha; then maybe, otherwise pushing this boat 'well' is going to require 2 motors and as you already know my 255 is equipped with twin 200's.
dfmcintyre posted 09-28-2003 06:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Ron -

Can't comment on the 255 Conquest, but I'd agree with Brian that a single outboard, with the right horsepower would push a classic 25-foot hull.

Our Revenge-25 Cuddy had a Mercury 260-HP sterndrive unit and would hit high 30's, from what I recall. An outboard of similar horsepower, being lighter and more efficient (only one 90 degree bend between power production and final output) would run the same boat faster.

Don

jimh posted 09-28-2003 07:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Changed TOPIC; was "Will a 25 foot classic whaler run properly with one engine"--jimh]

When a manufacturer makes the transom wide enough to accommodate twin engines, I think he's trying to tell his customers something.

Royce posted 09-28-2003 08:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Royce  Send Email to Royce     
Ron3637--I have a 1985 Outrage Cuddy 25 that has twin 150 hp. Merc. EFI's. Even with props that allow it only to reach 4900 rpm WOT, it still gets up and goes just fine(about 44 mph). I will be having the props opened up a couple of pitch sizes when I stop fishing. On Friday I was fishing next to Andy's (fishcop) 25 (armstrong bracket with a single 225 Merc. Optimax) and he said that his gets about the same speed as mine does. He seemed happy with the performance. Try emailing him.
Royce
lae posted 09-28-2003 08:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for lae  Send Email to lae     
I guess this one is mine, or at least half of it. I have just recently repowered an older 25 outrage. After serious thought about the options I went with a Yamaha 250 HPDI with a power tilt 15 horse four stroke kicker. I am extremely happy with this set up for my uses. We wakeboard, pull toys, and fish salmon, steelhead, walleye and bass in fresh water mostly. It runs out around 48 mph and lopes along at 30 to 34 easily. I have pulled seven people on towables while carrying 12 in the boat and have found that it is as easy to play out of as any boat I have owned, including the Katama. When fishing you never leave the helm, with the tilt on the 15, as both motors are constantly tied. I do have a slight loss of range with them tied together, but will take care of that by cutting off the tiller mount on the fifteen. I am having a little trouble making this modification. Hate to go cutting on a brand new outboard. It is highly likely that the next repower of this 25 will be twins, though, as I seem to be orienting myself towards offshore. I think that the correct decision in terms of single vs a pair is dependant upon your intended use of the machine.
dhlaw posted 09-29-2003 11:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for dhlaw  Send Email to dhlaw     
Ron,
did you buy a boat?? What model??
Sal DiMercurio posted 09-29-2003 12:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Lea, not to be un/constructive but I really do think your speedo or gps is running about 8 10 mph on the happy side.
48 mph on a 25' outrage with only 250 hp is really impressive.
By any chance do you know what size prop your running & what is your max rpms.?
I would think the max pitch that engine can twist at WOT on a 25' would be 16 or 17, but in order to get 48 mph I feel it would take at least a 19 or even a 21 pitch.
Something isn't adding up here.
12 people in the boat & pulling 7 more is 19 people at roughly 2 tons of people [ 4,000 lbs more ].......how fast are you running with all this meat in & in back of the boat ?
Sal
Fishcop posted 09-29-2003 02:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
Ron,

I have a 1987 25' Outrage Cuddy. Has a single 2000 225hp Optimax mounted on a bracket. Pushes the boat 40mph light or loaded, cuddy on or off. It works fine for my needs.
If you have the option and $$$ for twins, I would go with twins for that size of boat.
My boat came with the single and the extra $$$ needed to convert to twins is not worth the performance difference for my needs.
A 255 Conquest is a big, heavy boat. Might look into twin Optimax 200hp. I have been looking at a similar boat with that setup and she performs well. Eats more fuel than a single, but you can't take it with you!

Andy

Tom W Clark posted 09-29-2003 02:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I've been in Larry Eaton's (lae) Outrage 25 and can confirm that it runs just fine with single power. I spent a day with Larry in his new boat during the 2003 NW Rendezvous in August here on Puget Sound.

I never saw 48 mph but did see 45 mph on both my own GPS (that I brought along for this purpose) and Larry's installed GPS. For the record, we were running South against a mild ebb tide in Central Puget Sound and running in mild wind chop with good sized boat wakes mixed in. It was approximately 10:00 AM and the ambient air temperature was in the 70’s. The Yamaha was not at that point in time fully broken in yet.

Full power test runs later in the day in smooth water produced speeds of only 42 mph per my Gamin.

I do not know how much fuel we had on board but we had quite a bit of gear, food and ice in coolers, boxes, bags ect. from the event. Larry's boat has bottom paint and carries a Yamaha 15 hp four stroke kicker as well.

It is utter Hog Wash to maintain the Outrage 25 doesn't perform well with single power. For those who doubt, I suggest you run one before offering advice.

doobee posted 09-29-2003 09:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for doobee  Send Email to doobee     
The first consideration is the horsepower rating of the boat. If you can get close to max horsepower with a single engine, the boat should perform adequately.

Twin engines will give you faster acceleration, but lower top speed. The extra weight will make your boat more likely to take water over the transom when drifting, or backing down. As for economy, towing insurance, or a kicker will get you home for a lot less than the investment in a second V6 engine and related maintenance.

In most cases Bob Dougherty recommended single engine applications over twins. One exception is in the case of a Whalerdrive where the horsepower rating is signifcantly higher than the standard transom.

If you do a search you'll find several other threads regarding this subject.

It might be fun to compile performance reports if it could be done scientifically, perhaps using scales to accurately weigh in before a speed run.

Sal DiMercurio posted 09-29-2003 09:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Many people get the wrong impression when they think twins.
Most think that twins will use twice the fuel..."WRONG"....
When running a single 225 on a 25' boat, your going to have to push that throttle pretty darn far to run 40 mph, like 95 percent of power or 5,200/ 5,400 rpms, thus using "at least" 23/24 gph, or 1 mpg.
Put twin 150s on the same boat [ twisting 4 inchs more [pitch per prop ] & get 40 mph while running those engines at 3,700 getting close to 6 mpg per engine doubling that equals 3 mpg total between the 2 engines, thus a gain of 2 mpg less used fuel for twins over the single thats really breathing hard with it's toung hanging out.
Sure a 250 will push the boat but it's going to work twice as hard as a pair or 150s, [ 100 hp less per engine ].
I'm talking DFI engines, not carbed.
Even carbed 150 twins will get better mpgs then a single 250 carbed 2 stroke.
Whenever you have to push your engine "over" 4,000/ 4200 rpms, you can kiss any thought of fuel economy goodby, then when you get to the majic 5,000 rpm mark, figure 1 gallon of fuel per hour per each 10 hp, or 10 percent of your hp is how much fuel your going to use.
Twin engines running nice & easy at 3,500 rpms, twisting 4 inchs more pitch then the single running 4,800 rpms to get the same speed is going to use one hell of alot less fuel then the single big hog sucking it through a fire hose.
There were some tests done recently & posted right here on this site, & many of you were very surprised to find the twin application getting better fuel economy over the big single.
Sal
lae posted 09-29-2003 11:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for lae  Send Email to lae     
Sal,
Prop is stainless marked 21-m. I think that it had intruder stickers (or something like that) on it before they fell off. On new Yamaha combo tach it runs 51-5200 rpm. Prop is fairly heavy cupped.
As far as the load goes, we generally pull towables between 25 and 30 mph, but I was kind of busy with the responsibility of that many and was not really paying attention to the gps or tach.
I also, this summer, pulled a disabled 17' ski boat with outboard and two occupants 17 miles downriver to their trailer. Use a heavy towables bridle and happened to get the rope length adjusted just right. I watched the towed boat try to get on step and wallow back a couple of times before I hit the gas and pulled them over the top. I ran the rest of the way at between 3700 and 4000 rpm and varied from 24 to 28 mph on the gps. The sheriff’s department was not too impressed until they talked to me at the launch and realized that everyone was sober and we had all discussed how unwise it would be to move around in the towed craft.
My numbers are true and I am only guilty of stretching them due to downstream current which generally runs around 3 mph in the pools above the dams. As I stated earlier, I made my decision after reading all of the conversations about singles versus twins and did so with a lot of thought to what my usage of the craft would be. And I am happy, so far. I only have 50 hours on the HPDI, so I realize that this may all change downriver.

Larry

lae posted 09-29-2003 11:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for lae  Send Email to lae     
As I run it more I will have fuel consumption figures but haven't really been keeping close track. Have been playing too much.
Larry
Sal DiMercurio posted 09-29-2003 11:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Lae, that engine must be one ultra powerful SOB.
I can't even imagine twisting a 21 pitch prop on a 25' boat with a single engine, i'd figure a 15p to 17p max.
That means if you went to twin 200s you would be twisting a pair of 14.25 x 25p.................whew !
5,100/5,200 rpms is to low for that engine, if i'm not mistaken that engine is rated max at 5,800/6,000 rpms,....to much prop to keep the engine healthy.
If your tach is right i'd suggest droping down 2 inchs in pitch to a 19p in order for that engine to be able to breath & reach 5,500/5,600 rpms.
I'm really impressed with your numbers, she must be set up perfect except for the pitch.
5,100 rpms is not healthy at all for that engine
Sal
Tom W Clark posted 09-30-2003 12:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Larry,

50 hours already?! You've been having some fun, haven't you?

Given that the Yamaha 250 HPDI has a recomended full throttle operating range of 4500 to 5500 RPM I'd say you've got your motor/prop combination dialed in pretty nicely if you can hit 45 mph at 5200 RPM.

Sweet ride.

unsinkable_2000 posted 09-30-2003 03:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for unsinkable_2000  Send Email to unsinkable_2000     
My Frontier 25 is currently rigged with twin Merc Opti 150's, 4 blade stainless and are mounted on CMC jackplates w/ 8" setback. When not overweight with full tanks of fuel or passengers I am lucky to hit 41-42 mph. Added weight of cabin doesn't help. Twin power is very useful when towing (I use it in CG Auxiliary) or in the unlikely event of engine failure when way off shore. I did have an incident when a kid in a Hobie Cat spent the night on Lake Ontario and we found him the next day alive, thank God. When towing Hobie and wet kid back to shore (over twenty miles out) there was a problem with the fuel line running to the port engine. Having the extra engine allowed job to get done and boat performed well enough on just a single screw, these things don't happen often but when you need it the extra engine is great. And the gent. in prior post is right, two engines don't exactly mean twice the fuel.
kline posted 10-02-2003 11:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for kline  Send Email to kline     
Ron,
I have a 255 Conquest with a single 250. It runs extemely well. Top end is about 41, and a 4200 rpms I can cruise at 27mph, according to my GPS. The boat is not overly fast, but I am not concerned with that much speed in a BW fishing boat.
Steve
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 10-02-2003 01:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
kline;

I get about 48 mph on my 255 with half fuel 3 persons, no chop, trimmed up on a pair of yamaha 200 hpdi's.

Capt_Tidy posted 10-07-2003 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Capt_Tidy  Send Email to Capt_Tidy     
Larry... remember that 25 Outrage with twin Suzuki 140s that Bill was talking about. Before you say "no" (as we both did) after a fun day fishing on a similar rig, I've maybe changed my mind. It's well worth a look-n-see. Lots of power, nice and playful... and cheap on gas.

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