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Author Topic:   OUTRAGE 25 REPOWER
AM posted 11-05-2003 07:30 PM ET (US)   Profile for AM   Send Email to AM  
Im thinking in a pair of 115 HP MERCURY four stroke.

Im not realy crazy about speed, but for fuel economy; What do you guys think?

also, Ive heard that are a little dificult to shift to neutral. is it true?

Thanks in advance.

doobee posted 11-05-2003 08:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for doobee  Send Email to doobee     
I have to say I'm not thrilled with the combo. You're paying more money for a package that offers less performance than a 225 HP HPDI engine with comparable fuel economy. Any savings in fuel would be offset by the maintenance cost related to the extra motor.

If you want twin engines, your best bet is twin 150 HPDI motors. You'll have the extra horsepower when you need it and if you want fuel economy just throttle back a little. Also, when it's time to sell the boat, this package will be more attractive to a potential buyer.

If the boat has a Whalerdrive, twin 150's play a nice tune, but 225s will make that hull really sing.

Whatever you decide, at least you're starting off on the right foot.

Sal DiMercurio posted 11-05-2003 09:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
With a pair of 115 ...4 strokes, you can bet it will be a dog & you can forget fuel economy because whenever you have to run any engine or engines at near WOT, theres no such thing as economy.
One of the biggest mistakes a person can make is to under power your boat.
They think they are saving money buy buying the smaller engines & because their small they think small engines use less fuel but it aint the truth.
Your resale value will dissapear like you have a disease & nobody wants to be near you.
If you want good economy, put the max hp the boat is rated for & when it comes time to sell it, you wont even need to advertise.
Run little engines hard & they break & use more fuel then if you have the max & run at 1/3 throttle to get the same speed as you would running the little guys to death, & the bigger engine or engines will last much longer just by running them nice & easy & you will save a hell of alot more $$ on fuel.
Just saying it from experience & seeing it everyday.
You can't go wrong by putting the max hp on that boat.
If you don't want to go fast, just run those big guys at 1/3 throttle & enjoy it.
Sal
lhg posted 11-05-2003 10:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Twin 115's on a 25 should produce about 40 mph. But if I were going to use 115's, I would get the most powerful ones on the market, and definitely 2-strokes, regular or DFI. The new Mercury Optimax 115's could be a solution, but I don't know much about the Mexican market/service situation.

I would think the acceleration and plane-off ability with the 4-stroke 115's could be a problem.

The Yamaha version of this EFI 115 4-stroke might be worth looking at, simply because counter rotation is available, and not offered at the 115 HP level by Mercury. They are, however, 20 pounds heavier because they carry the V-6 4 3/4" gearcases.

Bigshot posted 11-06-2003 12:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Friend has a 23 SeaCraft which is heavier than the 25 Whaler with twin 115 Suzuki 4 strokes and she does 44mph and cruises at 29@ 4k.
AM posted 11-06-2003 01:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for AM  Send Email to AM     
THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, ILL SHARE MY FINAL OPTION.

HECTOR

Tom2697 posted 11-06-2003 03:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom2697  Send Email to Tom2697     
I know the fuel issues in Mexico (high prices and questionable quality). Consider getting a more forgiving motor at the max horsepower. The HPDIs and DFIs are great but I am not too sure of how they will react to unstable fuel (of varying octanes). A standard EFI or carbed motor might be a better bet. You also have the option of any of the 130-150hp 4-strokes. I think they are all EFI now but I could be wrong. Personally, I would go that route.
Bigshot posted 11-06-2003 03:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Good point!
mustang7nh posted 11-06-2003 09:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
I'm not sure speed and fuel economy are separate parameters. An engine that runs at 3/4 throttle vs an engine that runs at 1/2 throttle for the same speed will have very different economy. Specifically, an underpowered boat will likely get less economy than the same boat with more horsepower running at less throttle.
AM posted 11-07-2003 11:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for AM  Send Email to AM     
Fuel in Mexico is 2.22 US Dollar a Galon, so, fuel economy is priority #1
Tom2697 posted 11-07-2003 12:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom2697  Send Email to Tom2697     
AM, then definitely go with a higher horsepower motor. Mustang7nh said it correct. Just make certain that the motor you get does not have to be run on 91+ octane. Twins or a single are up to you...
AM posted 11-07-2003 12:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for AM  Send Email to AM     
TOM:

I do a lot of trolling (7-8 knots) what I understand the big engines are bad in that deparment, am I wrong?

Bigshot posted 11-07-2003 12:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
The bigger the engine the more of a problem it has at slow speeds. Twin 115 or 140 4 strokes will be perfect. They also run 87+ octane.
Tom2697 posted 11-07-2003 03:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom2697  Send Email to Tom2697     
I assume that you will troll soemwhat far offshore. Hence, go with the twins. I will agree with Bigshot that the 140 4-strokes will be perfect. I run the Suzuki DF140 (18' Outrage) and troll all day without any problems. My last trip was about 200 miles with 60 mile runs to and from the fishing grounds. This means about 80 miles of running around 6-8 knots. The engine was turned off only twice (both times when I forgot to unclip the lanyard during a fish-strike) and never missed a beat. I think you will definitely enjoy that motor. Running two of these will also bring you closer to the max horsepower on your boat so you can run the engines easier and save more fuel than with the 115s. Of course, others' opinions will vary...

One last note, the Suzuki/Johnson can be serviced at either repair shop since they are identical. I don't know how many srvice shops are around you so consider this point in your decision...

OutrageMan posted 11-08-2003 06:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
I have a lot of experience running twin Merc 4 stroke 115's on the rescue boat I pilot. You can see the rig and read my review at http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage63.html .

Bottom line is that I think you will be WAY underpowered with them on a 25. To those who think that the boat would do 40, maybe if the operator was 100 lbs, he had less than 10 gallons of fuel, the wind was at his back, going down hill on a perfectly calm day.

Brian

hooter posted 11-08-2003 10:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Read what Sal the Mercury-man wrote up above. Then re-read it. If you still have other thoughts than mounting the maximum power rated for the hull in question, then keep goin' back and readin' Sal's post again and again, until you obtain "the cure". The single most-likely reason Ah will forget a potential boat purchase is a low-hours, well maintained power-plant that is TOO SMALL for the hull Ah want to buy.
AM posted 11-08-2003 11:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for AM  Send Email to AM     
There is no Johnson dealer here, the options are:
HONDA (HEAVIER, 30% MORE EXPENSIVE) YAMAHA (30% more expensive (NO NAFTA WITH JAPAN) and MERCURY. So, there in not much choice here, anyway Im looking at 20K investment with the four strokes, Beeing a little bit of a gambler myself Im going with the 115s four strokes, Ill be testing the boat next week. Ill report performance results.

THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!!!!

Perry posted 11-08-2003 12:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
It appears you are going against everyone's advice and are planning to buy the 115 4 strokes. You say fuel economy is your #1 priority. Did you read Sal's and Hooter's advice? You will be at wot all the time with those motors. Since Merc has nothing in the 150 hp range in 4 stroke and you like to troll at low speeds, I would spend the extra $ for the Honda or Yamaha 150 4 strokes.
lhg posted 11-08-2003 02:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I'm betting that a pair of Mercury 135 or 150 Optimax's or EFI's would get BETTER gas mileage than beating up a pair of 115 4-strokes, and WAY superior performance. The EFI's are guaranteed just as, or more, reliable also. Acceleration with the small 4-strokes is going to be terrible when you've got 140 gallons of gas aboard. I still say MINIMUM recommended power for a Classic 25 is a pair of 150's or a 225 EFI TWO-stroke. A pair of 200's is the ultimate power for a notched transom model (it will handle them), and a pair of 225 EFI's for a WD model.
Then you're talking serious offshore boating.

This idea that any conventional 4-stroke engine is the answer for every powering situation is just plain crazy.
It is also why Mercury has spent 100 million developing an alternative 4-stroke design.

I think Outrageman's experience with these 115 Yamaha/Merc 4-strokes is significant, and should be heeded.

OutrageMan posted 11-08-2003 04:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
I didn't respond to part two of your original post. Yes the 115's are hard as hell to shift into neutral. It has to do with ignition shut off system that they use. There was another thread some time ago specifically about this issue.

I really think that you are making a 20k mistake by putting these motors on your boat. But it is your 20k, not mine.

Brian

Sal DiMercurio posted 11-08-2003 06:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Hooter, i'm a Bombardier man.
Used to race for Merc back in the late 50s but only owned 2 in 53 years since then.
I find the people who think they will save money by buying smaller engines end up complaining that the engines are no good because the boat just wont perform.
Anyone ever hear anyone else say they had to much power on their boat ?....funny, niether have I but sure hear alot say, damn, I should have listen to you.
My choice would be a pair of 225 Evinrudes.
Sal
Perry posted 11-08-2003 06:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
"This idea that any conventional 4-stroke engine is the answer for every powering situation is just plain crazy."

There is the issue about fuel quality in Mexico and the fact that he will be doing lots of trolling at low speed. I don't know for sure but I suspect that the Optimax needs good quality fuel and do you really want to spend lots of time slow speed trolling with a 2 stroke?

The original poster said fuel economy is his main concern and he's not crazy about speed. If he wanted to go fast and fuel economy was not an issue, 2 strokes might be good for him. I know 4 strokes are not for everyone but it appears to me that twin 150 4 strokes would work well for his application.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 11-08-2003 06:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
As others have said the 115's would be anemic and with no cr available, forget it! I would suggest either the 150 Yamaha 4 strokers or the 150 hpdi's.
Sal DiMercurio posted 11-08-2003 08:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
As far as 2 strokes not getting good fuel economy & not able to troll for long periods of time, it's pure BS.
I'm sure the newer Evinrudes get better performance then my 2000...200 hp DFI, but I doubt any engine can beat the economy & performance of the DFI.
Mine uses 1/3 of a gallon of fuel per hour at troll speed [ 2.5 kts ], thats 3 hours & 20 minutes to burn 1 single gallon of fuel & she trolls anywhere from 3 to 6 hours during a day of trolling for salmon off San Francisco.
She never even sputters 1 iotta during the troll or while accelerating after trolling for 5 hours straight.
I really feel it's a myth that the big 2 strokes can't troll for long periods of time as i'v got very near 1,000 hours on my engine with over 500 at troll & believe me, this engine purrs like a kitten.
I find the fuel in Mexico to be excellent, never had a problem in my boat or truck, in fact, I think my truck runs better on Mexican fuel then ours, [ 2001 f150 ford 4x4, V8 4.6 or 8 engine.]
& all my outboards that i'v run in Mexico seem to run better also,....could be just being there makes everything run better.
Sal
Fishcop posted 11-08-2003 09:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
HECTOR,

Do you have twins or a single on your Outrage?
What controls do you have?
Is this a notched or WD transom?
All these will matter with the repower.

You stated that your main concern is fuel economy at 6-7kts.
A big single Optimax/Yamaha/Honda/Bombardier will work just fine.
My 225 Optimax pushes my 25' Outrage great. I troll for tuna at 6-7kts and never it loads up. In fact, I troll for salmon at 1.5 to 2.5kts and it has never loaded up.

My boat has increased range with the new Optimax, but it still costs $$$ at the pump.

Fuel in Mexico or anywhere else is expensive. When you decide to repower, what is the cost savings over single/twins--two stroke/four stroke?

Range of the boat with its current fuel cell is what will change with the repower.

Get as much info as you can before making the investment in new motors.

Any questions, drop me a line.

Andy

Tom2697 posted 11-10-2003 10:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom2697  Send Email to Tom2697     
Sal,
I'm in Mexico right now as I am writing this thread. The fuel down here is questionable at best and always more expensive than in the U.S. Whenever I fill up at a Mexican pump, I always add a can of octane boost. Otherwise, my milage drops and my overall performance suffers. I can compare it to running an outboard with stale fuel. I think you stated it correctly that just being here improves your perception of everything.
AM posted 11-10-2003 10:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for AM  Send Email to AM     
Here in La Paz, usualy I go out, dont see any other boat in the whole day, (Unless you are fishing in one of the few banks) Anyway, the point is this: I want twins because a fish with my family almost all the time, there is almost no one to help you if youre in trouble, I know that new engines are very reliable, but two engines is better around here.

When I bought the boat there was nothing left of the old Yamahas, so I need everything new.

Again thanks for all the information, Ill share my results this week, and if Ill be honest if I do right or wrong.

Hector.

alkar posted 11-10-2003 11:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
Hector, I run twin counter-rotating Honda 115s on my 22' Outrage with whaler dirve. She will make 40-41 mph under ideal conditions. With an average load she struggles to make 40. (The GPS will be bouncing back and forth between 39 and 40.)

The 25' is a much bigger boat. If you're set on four strokes, I'd say that the Suzuki/Johnson 140s would be a minimum. If you want better reliability protection, and you fish well off-shore, you probably want motors big enough to plane the boat individually - 115s don't fit that bill even for my boat.

Alex

p.s. I don't know how much horsepower my 115s actually produce. Maybe the Hondas are over-rated. I wonder about this, as others report being able to plane their 22' Outrage with a single 115 (with other motor tilted free of the water).

jimh posted 11-17-2003 08:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
See

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/002183.html

for a follow up on actual results with twin 115-HP engines on a classic 1986 OUTRAGE 25.

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