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  What are the different Outrage hulls since 80's

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Author Topic:   What are the different Outrage hulls since 80's
johnnyb posted 11-07-2003 03:13 PM ET (US)   Profile for johnnyb   Send Email to johnnyb  
What are the perceived performance differences and/or advantages (speed, wet/dry, ride quality) between the various outrage hulls offered since the early 80's?

lhg posted 11-07-2003 09:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I suggest that you spend tens of hours searching and reading through this excellent Whaler website and studying the photographs as well. It's all here, you just have to do the research and be willing to take the time to learn.
JayR posted 11-07-2003 09:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for JayR  Send Email to JayR     
I've read many of these articles and would enjoy hearing others opinions on the differences in the hulls as well.

lhg, do all your posts need to be so impersonal?

Jerry Townsend posted 11-08-2003 01:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jerry Townsend  Send Email to Jerry Townsend     
johnnyb - sorry for the put-down - but that is sometimes a characteristic of some on this site.

I am not an expert on Whaler designs - but there are basically the so-called "classic" and the "post-classic" - as often referred to here. The definition of the exact break-point is fuzzy - but some refer to being made before (classic) or after (post-classic) about 1990. Regardless, there are advantages and disadvantages to each design. Further, they both are Whalers - built with the same quality and same basic unsinkable features - but unfortunately, many don't see it as that simple.

Basically the relative differences between Outrage designs of the same length include: the "classics" are somewhat lighter, narrower, less freeboard and a bit shallower "V". The "post-classic" are a bit heavier, a bit wider, a bit longer, with more freeboard and a deeper "V". Now, what does this mean? -- to me, as an engineer - the added weight means more energy required (both horsepower and gasoline), but increased stability, smoother ride (F = MA)with the same wave/water conditions. The deeper "V" results in a smoother ride in big and rought water. The more freeboard means greater safety and protection. There are other more subtle differences - such as the larger gas tank and the self bailing feature in the "post classic" boats.

I have a '96 17 Outrage with a 115 Johnson OceanRunner which is a very fine outfit - and a good compromise for me in view of the relatively big lakes in Idaho/Wyoming and the often severe afternoon storms that can whip up 3 - 4 foot + waves in a matter of minutes, and also have the capability to use on Puget Sound and the Strait in Washington state.

At the time ('96) I bought mine - I could have bought a "classic" Montauk or a "classic" 17/18 Outrage - but chose the '96. That decision would be the same today.

There have been several discussions regarding the differences and you can use the search feature to possibly
find those threads.

I have the summary disk that Dick Clark et.al. put together. If you have more questions - let me know via e-mail. -------- Jerry/Idaho

JayR posted 11-08-2003 04:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for JayR  Send Email to JayR     
Also being interested in this topic, I want to say thank you.

Why do I hear V-20 sometimes? What years does that designation refer to?

Also, I had to laugh when you mentioned 3- 4 foot waves. Around here, that is referred to as "a light chop" :-).

My best friend has the same boat as yours. I really like it but can't understand how they could engineer a hull with so little interior room.

He and I both agree. We have more room in my Montauk. I'll add.... my Montauk (former Eastport) has an 18" wide console and no seat... But still, so little working area in that 17.

Jerry Townsend posted 11-08-2003 05:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jerry Townsend  Send Email to Jerry Townsend     
When I read Jay's response, I also noted where I mentioned Dick Clark - whereas I should have said Tom Clark. My apologies.

I can well igmagine that you consider 3 - 4 foot stuff as a light chop - and I know on a couple of occassions, they were somewhat larger and pretty closely spaced. Previously, I had a 13 Super Sport ('75 or '76) that was a real good fishing machine - but a couple of friends were a bit uncomfortable in those afternoon storms. The 17 Outrage takes all of that stuff in stride.

One of the biggest problems we have around here every year! is with scouts or tourists trying to cross a good sized lake in open canoes on a nice summer/fall afternoon - and get half way across when that afternoon storm moves in. Most unfortunately, this is a common scenario every year.

You may have a bit more room - but the seat is nice. Also, I find myself wanting more room on the console - and my console is probably (a wag) a good 24 - 28 inches (my boat is covered). That is, with the compass, and also a depth/fish finder and chart/plotter GPS - I am out of room. In fact, I have toyed with the idea of removing the compass.

But the cockpit area is VERY important - well to you and me, it is. But the designers put something like cosmetics or "euro" styling as being more important - in view of the their latest "euro" style boats which does absolutely nothing except eat up cockpit area. Frankly, the designers should become educated in and apply value engineering!

I don't know what the V-20 refers to. Perhaps Tom Clark et.al. can help here. ------- Jerry/Idaho

whalersman posted 11-08-2003 07:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
Jerry,

The V20 was the first of the newer style Outrage hulls beyond the Banana hull Outrage.

The V20 was first introduced in 1978 and all Whaler put out at that time for this model was a Flyer.

It is on Dick Clark's CD Collection.... (Sorry Tom) :-)

Yes, Tom Clark's wonderful CD Collection of Boston Whalers.....
Couldn't be without it....

Joe

jimh posted 11-08-2003 11:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It is really very simple.

Before 1980 = relatively flat, hard riding classic hulls;

1980 - 1990 = classic constant deadrise moderate vee hull, still being made for commercial customers;

After 1990 = new hull design every 2-3 years, always "improved" on previous design.

JayR posted 11-09-2003 06:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for JayR  Send Email to JayR     
Thank you!!!

Looks like I'll be purchasing the CD's from Tom...
All too often I learn the answers can be gleaned from there... it is a valuable resource that I am lacking.

Tom W Clark posted 11-09-2003 01:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Easy stuff first:

Jason,

The V-20 (aka Outrage 20, Outrage V-20) was the very first of the new generation of deep-V Boston Whaler hulls designed by Bob Dougherty. This hull came out in 1977 for the 1978 model year. It was followed the next year by the 22' hull (aka V-22, Outrage 22, Outrage V-22). These two model were made alongside the last of the popular 19' and 21' ("Banana Boat") models. Whaler chose to add the "V" designation to the original hull stickers to help emphasize the fact these were dramatically new hulls for Whaler. Up until this point all the hulls they produced were designed around the familiar "Cathedral Hull" shape of the 13', 15', 16'/17', 19' and 21' models.

The Outrage V-20 (joined soon after by the Revenge V-20) was a modest attempt to build a smoother riding hull. The hull's deadrise (amount of "V") was relatively low. The V-22 had a deeper V and proved to be more satisfactory. The 22' hull shape remains in production today unchanged as their Guardian 22. The original Outrage 20 however was replaced in 1985 by a new hull design that had a greater V. This 20' hull mold was built from the 22'. It is effectively a 22' with the last couple of feet whacked off.

There has been a great deal of confusion over the V-20 designation. The V-20 name does NOT simply apply to the original Outrage 20 model. It was only used on the original Outrage 20 up until 1980 after which it was simply called Outrage 20. The name Outrage 20 has always applied to the original 20' model with the V-20 being a supplement. Once Whaler stopped making the 21' model, they didn't need to differentiate between the new and old style hulls so they dropped the "V" designation altogether on both the Outrage 20, Revenge 20, Outrage 22 and Revenge 22. Again, the dropping of the "V" designation DOES NOT indicate a change in hull design.

The difference between the “Classic” and “Post Classic” (a term coined by Jim Hebert, not Whaler) hull designs is not fuzzy at all. It is clear as a bell. If it was designed by Bob Dougherty, it’s a classic. If it was designed after Dougherty left Whaler after it was sold to Reebok, it’s a Post Classic.

All the Post Classic hulls appeared after 1990 and most of them included a greater emphasis on the deep-V hull design bringing Whaler’s hull form more in line with other popular boat manufacturers.

There is no question that these newer deep-V hulls are smoother riding. Any Whaler purest who thinks otherwise needs to spend some time in a new hull. But it is not as simple as ride smoothness. Stability, speed, weight, ergonomics and convenience all come into play in judging a hull shape. There are pros and cons to both the Classic and Post Classic hulls. As Larry points out, there has been a great deal of debate of this in the Forum over the last few years.

jimh posted 11-09-2003 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It may aid in understanding the boat designs and their epochs if you also understand the different corporate cultures and ownerships that produced them.

To that end, I suggest you read my article on the corporate history of Boston Whaler, which appears in the Reference Section of the website.

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/history/whaler.html

JayR posted 11-10-2003 08:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for JayR  Send Email to JayR     
Tom, thank you once again.
You clarified the confusion I had regarding a friends 20' to mine. His was built before 1985 and does in fact have a different dead rise than mine built in 1988.

He had mentioned that mine would ride a bit smoother than his and I did not understand why. It being a shortened 22' answers that question.

Most sincerely appreciated.
Jason

johnnyb posted 11-10-2003 12:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for johnnyb  Send Email to johnnyb     
Thanks for all the great feedback. I recently found myself on a Whaler dealer’s used boat lot looking at 3 distinctly different 21 – 22 foot Whaler hulls, all made between the mid 80’s and 90’s. After lengthy conversations with several salespeople there and at other dealers, I still couldn’t walk away with any conclusions about differences in performance, ride quality, wetness, etc. Therefore input and perceptions from those who have experience with these hulls, and/or those that have pondered the same, is of value to me. Thanks again.
Tom W Clark posted 11-10-2003 12:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
johnnyb,

If you identified precisely which three models of 21' to 22' Boston Whalers you were looking at it would a whole lot easier to help you.

johnnyb posted 11-10-2003 04:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for johnnyb  Send Email to johnnyb     
Sorry, I had meant to say that they were all Outrage models; an 85 22', a 92 21', and I think a 96 21'.
Tom W Clark posted 11-10-2003 04:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
johnnyb,

OK, now we're talking. But there is still some confusion. Whaler did not make a 21' Outrage in 1992, they still made the Classic Outrage 22 (same as your 1985 Outrage 22 apart from a slightly different console) and the new Whaler 21 Walkaround. The 20'-9" Outrage 21 was not introduced until 1993. The 21 Outrage from 1996 was the same as this boat.

lhg posted 11-10-2003 04:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I've been trying to find a nice 1992 21 Outrage for some time now, particularly since it is distinctly different from the 1985 22 Outrage and 1993-1996 Rebock era 21 Outrage. I believe it to be the dryest and softest riding of the three models mentioned. I would love to know who this BW dealership is, so that I can contact them to see the boat.

Thanks for helping me out on this referral.

johnnyb posted 11-10-2003 05:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for johnnyb  Send Email to johnnyb     
Sorry if I stepped on someones toes. I saw three different Outrage hulls for sale at Taylor Marine in Delaware about a month ago. I'm sure of the 85, maybe the other two were slightly different years than I described, but I am sure there were 3 different hulls. I am curious of the difference, if any, in terms of performance. If this subject is posted in the wrong place, I'll gladly move it.

Thanks to those that have been helpful.

Tom W Clark posted 11-10-2003 06:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
johnnyb,

Very interesting. You say you saw three different hull shapes?

Let's review what we know:

1978-1994 Classic Outrage 22
22'-3" length overall
7'-5" beam
240 HP maximum horsepower
2050 lbs. hull weight
5000 lbs. swamped capacity

1993-1998 Outrage 21
20'-9" length overall
8'-6" beam
300 HP maximum horsepower
2500 lbs. hull weight
6000 lbs. swamped capacity

In 1999, Whaler introduced a new 21' Outrage which sported the new "Euro Transom" look that has become so ubiquitous. May I presume this is not one of the hulls you saw?

As you can see the Classic 22, while a little longer, is really a significantly smaller boat. Narrower and lighter. In contrast the Outrage 21 is rated for 300 hp (same as the Classic Outrage/Revenge 25.) Because of its size I would expect the Outrage 21 to be a smoother ride but to not go as fast with the same horsepower as the 22.

Larry,

Could you provide the specifications for the boat you allude too (a 1992 Outrage 21)? I can't find a reference to such a model anywhere. Is it one of those non-published models like the Montauk 18? There have actually been a few “odd-duck” Whalers that never made into a catalog or dealer price sheet.

doobee posted 11-10-2003 09:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for doobee  Send Email to doobee     
As I recollect, the VanLancker designed 21 Outrage, 21 Walkaround, 23 Outrage, and 23 Walkaround were all introduced at about the same time, which was shortly after I left Whaler in January of '91. In September of '92 I was working for a Whaler dealer, showing a 23' Walkaround I/O at the Newport Boat Show. I don't remember if it was a '92 or a '93 model, but I know they had been available prior to August in the outboard version. The boats were probably introduced in the middle of the '92 model year, at the Miami show, which would explain why they weren't in the catalog.
andygere posted 11-10-2003 11:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
The VanLanker 21 hull came out in '91, according to the black and white sales flier that I still have. It was in the Walkaround model, but the same hull was used a year or two later for the Outrage. Good looking boat, definitely made my short list before I found the Outrage 22 Cuddy.
johnnyb posted 11-11-2003 09:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for johnnyb  Send Email to johnnyb     
Thanks for your summary Tom.

I have always admired the classic hulls, but as my fiance and I looked at various hulls at 2 different dealers, some salesmen would suggest that newer hulls had a better and drier ride, others suggested that the newer hull's ride were softer but not drier, etc. Feeling that the advice I was getting from the salesmen was to push me to whatever they wanted to move off their lot, I brought this question to the forum. I guess all of the hulls come with some comprimise and I am sure I will be happy with whatever Whaler I get, just as long as I can remain secure in my decision. Thanks again to those that responded, this is a geat site.

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