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Author Topic:   Outrage V-20 Repower
BEACHPANDA posted 01-12-2004 02:00 PM ET (US)   Profile for BEACHPANDA   Send Email to BEACHPANDA  
[Reconstructed thread, initially in another forum, then running concurrently in two thread in this forum. Now joined here to make some sense...I hope.--jimh]

I just purchased a 1980 BW 20' Outrage that needs repowering. It had a 175 2 Stroke Yami and I just ordered a 150 4 Stroke Yami. Two 90 4 Strokes weigh an extra 356 lbs over a single 150 and the add'l weight to just gain 30 hp doesn't make good math for me.

Anyhow, I purchased Smart Tabs, and read that even though I'll give up an additional 3-4 MPH on the top end, that 4 Blade props help get the boat "into the hole" faster.

What about these "NEW" Engine Fin Tabs that fit on the Lower part of the engine? Is this overkill? What is the right combination? What do you give up for these Engine Fin Tabs in way of speed for the additional drag? Is there any additional drag?

Lastly, as I mentioned, the main reason I didn't go for the Twin 90's (with the attractive financing from Yamaha)is the weight issue. BW rates the 1980 20' Outrage at 180 hp. What would happen if I re-powered with a Yami 200hp - 4 stroke (difference between 150 & 200 is 157 lbs)? Is the Rating a BW Legal Issue or a BW Engineer Issue?

Thanks

Barry posted 01-12-2004 10:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
BP,

Your V-20 is only rated for 175 hp. See the reference specs for more info http://www.continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/specifications.html .

I'm not familiar with the Smart Tabs but did find this site http://www.smarttabs.co.nz/ . While the idea of "automatic" tabs sounds nice, I think that being able to manually adjust "regular" tabs (Bennett's or Lenco's) would be even better.

Hydrofoils that attach to the engine's anti-ventilation plate can provide several benefits including reduced time to plane, the ability to remain on plane at a slower speed, and reduced porpoising. Usually it is not recommended to use both tabs and a foil. Foils are a relatively low cost item, running anywhere from $30 to over $100. One of the best foils appears to be the Permatrim http://www.permatrimmarine.com/ .

I'm not sure what the maximum engine weight rating is for the V-20. The rating for the 19' Guardian (same hull as the 18-Outrage) is 479 lbs. and the rating for the 22-Guardian is 720 lbs.

Sal DiMercurio posted 01-12-2004 08:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, if you go to a 200 hp 4 stroke on your 1980 V20, you wont need that 4 blade prop.
You will be able to pull up 3 skiers in a deep water start with a 3 blade 14.25 x 17 Stiletto prop with no problem at all.
The engine would need to be mounted on the 2nd set of holes from the lowest setting.
Your engine should get 6000 rpms without skiers, & pull them at 36 mph [ optimum ski speed ] with no problems at all.
With skiers your rpms should reach between 5 & 5200 rpms at wot but your skiers would be going very close to 45 mph at wot which is to fast.
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 01-12-2004 09:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Thanks Sal, but I don't think I have a V-20, because my Hull has a Beam Width of 7' 5", and the Dry Weight is 1650 (200 lbs less than the V-20). BW says my 20' is only rated for 180hp, which is why I wasn't sure about going from the 150hp 4 Stroke I ordered to the 200hp 4 Stroke. Of course I wouldn't need the 4 Blade prop at that point, but there is the issue of the added weight of the 200.

Also, what about the Trim Blades that fit over the Lower Cowell (sp?) of the engine? Do they work?

Beach Panda

Sal DiMercurio posted 01-12-2004 11:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, my V 20 weighs 1,600 lbs according to my papers.
I don't think they made a 20' outrage & a v20 outrage in 1980, me thinks they were all V20s.
Ok, my 2000....200 hp Evinrude FICHT weighs 504 lbs plus i'v got an 80 or 90 lb 15 hp 1980 Johnson kicker hangging on the transom so i'm hauling over 585 lbs of engines back there.
Granted, without the kicker no water comes in the drain holes in the well, but with the kicker, a little water comes into the well through the drain holes, but never over the transom.
I fish some pretty rough water outside the Golden Gate [ like 12 ft high & only 20 to 25' apart on a few occasions ] & never had a problem with getting water in the boat in any way.
A 200 hp will make that boat a very, very powerful machine even if it is a 4 stroke, can you handle it ?
Don't say yes unless you have run very powerful boats because everyone thinks they can, but when the chips are down, we see the truth.
That boat is going to push 60 mph real hard with a 200 & setup right.
I would get 2 props, one 14.25x17 for sking & 1 ...14.25 x 19 for cruising or fishing & bring the engine up on the 2nd hole with the 17p prop & up on the 3rd set of holes with the 19p prop & you will fly.
You really don't need a whales tail unless you have a problem pulling up 3 skiers at one time, then you might think about one.
As long as the engine is mounted high enough, you shouldn't porpois.
I also had to move my dual group 29 batteries into my ice chect in front of the center counsel because the extra 120 lbs in the stern has just to much weight back there.
If the 19p prop over revs a bit, have just a little cup added to the prop to bring your rpms back to the maximum rating from the engine maker.
Theres a "HUGE' difference between the 150 hp & the 200 hp, like a totally different boat.
When running at wot with the 200 & your trimmed way in, you will see 50 mph, but when you trim her out & the boat breaks free of the suction of the water,.....hang on cause your going to jump 10 mph real quick & the engine is going to unwinde & your gonna scoot. believe me.
If you get the 200 hp, do "NOT" think you can handle it until you have gone just short [ like 5 seconds ] spurts many, many, many times or your gonna hurt yourself or worse yet, someone else.
When running at 60 mph it takes a looooooong way before you come to a stop or even being able to make a turn from that speed.
When you trim her out to maximum at wot , that boat will be riding on 19' of air & 1 ft of boat & you don't dare try turning at that speed, just hang on & point her straight & look for boat wakes otherwise you will go airborn for a long way & come down pretty hard & sometimes not real straight & out you go.
I don't know how well you can handle that much speed so I wont tell you to get the bigger engine, but if you want a real quick boat, there wont be many BWs that will keep up with you or even some bass boats as i'v found out.
Sal
jimh posted 01-12-2004 11:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Cleaned up the mess--had three threads going at once on this exact same question. Oy Vez!--jimh]
jimh posted 01-12-2004 11:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Panda---If you are interested in the addition of a foil appendage on your engine lower unit, or what is typically called a "Dol-Fin", you can read about a million articles and opinions on it in previous discussions.

Try the search engine link. Search of

Dol-fin
Dole fin
Dolfin
Cavitation Plate
Anti Ventilation Plate
Fin

and so on.

Some people swear by them; others swear at them.

If you have ordered a new 150-HP motor, it is too late to wonder about other options. I think you will be fine, although some might say you are powered a bit conservatively. You will probably get about 34-40 MPH out of that set up.

jimh posted 01-12-2004 11:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Regarding engine power rating plates: Again, this had been discussed at great length. You will find many articles previously posted about this.

The short answer: Boats made in the United States are required to have that rating plate when manufactured. You are not required to abide by it according to Federal Law. According to your local laws (look it up for your area) you may be required to abide by the rating. Your insurer may want to know about powering over the rating, too.

jimh posted 01-12-2004 11:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Finally--Changed TOPIC; was "How Much Trim vs. Drag vs. Loss of Speed"]
jimh posted 01-13-2004 01:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The Boston Whaler catalogue for 1980 shows following speeds for a Outrage 20 hull as a function of horsepower:

HP---MPH
100--34
150--42
175--49

Go to the Propeller Calculator section and find your propeller pitch.
I'd say about 17/18/19-inch pitch range for starters.

With following input:

RPM=6000
Ratio=2.0:1
Pitch=17-inch
Slip=8-percent

Calculated Speed = 44.4 MPH

Change to

RPM=5500
Ratio=2.0:1
Pitch=19-inch
Slip=10-percent

Calculated Speed = 44.5 MPH

See:

http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl

Tom W Clark posted 01-13-2004 01:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
"Outrage 20", "V-20", "Outrage V-20". Different names for the exact same boat.

19'-10" length overall.

7'-5" beam.

180 hp maximum.

1650 pound hull weight, dry.

Built from 1977 to 1985.

No "maximum engine weight" specification was ever assigned to this model or any other model from this era. The maximum engine weight specification is something Whaler only started to use in 1999, I believe.

BEACHPANDA posted 01-13-2004 07:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
I can't thank the WHALER FORUM enough! I wish I had as much to contribute as the outpouring of information as I've received. Thank you, all! Perhaps someday, I can add to the next neophite that joins and needs help, too.

By the way, I'm going to the Yami Dealer this AM to see if I can upgrade to the 200hp. I figure the worst that they can do is say no, or charge me the extra labor for removing the 150 and putting on the 200.

As for speed, I'm familiar with the limitations and otherwise. Being in Miami there are a lot of areas that are safe to attain those speeds, as well as the ocean/gulf between the US and the Bahamas (on a semi-calm day). I also understand that Whaler is boat and not an airplane, so flying is not an option I plan on using.

Thanks again for all the prop, drag, trim, and foil information.

I will post some photos when all is done and said... including the LHG Forward Deck, Canvas, and of course family.

Wishing everyone happy boating times.

Allen Kaplan
aka Beach Panda

BEACHPANDA posted 01-13-2004 08:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Update -

I spoke to the Yamaha Dealer. They don't have any 200's in stock but offered to put on a 225 4 Stroke instead, as it weighs the same as the 200. I've asked that they put some kind of governor/regulator on the engine because if the boat can do 60 w/ 200 hp, I don't see the need for more speed. I want a Whaler, not a Cigarette. The dealer will comply with my request so long as there are no plates on the hull stating max weight or hp (by any FL or Fed Agcy.). As I understand, from the thread, there's nothing on weight limitations, and BWC said to me that "the hull won't sink with the added weight.. it will handle it".

Thanks again,

Beach Panda

BEACHPANDA posted 01-13-2004 10:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Well... no 200 or 225. The Yamaha dealer is afraid of the USCG and of being sued in case of an accident - by anyone who would get hurt. The USCG says they'll charge me $5k and force me to change the engine if they see the boat is overpowered. That being the case, I'm back to the 150.

Beach

kglinz posted 01-13-2004 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
If the Coast Guard thinks they can fine you, they should read their Regulations. Just because they are now part of " Homeland Security" they still can't make up their own rules.... http://www.uscgboating.org/faqs/regulations.aspx#51
Sal DiMercurio posted 01-13-2004 11:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Thats strange because the CG here on the west coast says they care less how much hp you have on the boat.
I asked them twice before I put the 200 on mine.
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 01-13-2004 01:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
kglinz -

Thanks for the link. But, according to the Duty Officer at the USCG's "Boat Safety Officer", I was told the contrary to what's listed on the web-site. I don't recall the name of the Duty Officer, but their telephone number is:

305.415.7057

Now, either I can either accept that the web link is outdated and what the Officer says as true, and I see no motivation for him to say otherwise, or I can choose accept the link correct and the USCG officer is not up-to-date.

Let's assume the link is right, and I get a $5k fine from a USCG officer out to make a name for himself, witihin his ranks. It will cost me $3k just to hire an attorney and get out of trouble. Either way, I loose.

In the end, there's much-a-do about nothing - especially for $3k when I can get a new "exterior" Gel-Coat that will take me farther than paying an attorney will.

Beach

Plotman posted 01-13-2004 07:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
Sure there is a motivation for the coast guard guy to make something up about the rules - he thinks he is doing the world a service by preventing one more overpowered and potentially dangerous boat out on the water. (maybe he would be). What is the downside if you call his bluff? You just go out and do what you were going to anyway (put the 225 on that boat).
BEACHPANDA posted 01-14-2004 06:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Well, here's the final scoop on the OverPowering. I'm going to stick with the 150 4 Stroke for now. I spoke with the folks at Bob Hewe's who have a "contract" with the USCG about the web-findings. First, they showed me several boats in their yard that were seized by the USCG and HomeLand Security, and are being retro-powered (down graded) from what they are now, to what the vessels are rated for. Secondly, they said to me, no matter what the web-says, if the USCG for any reason wants to write you up, they can make up any excuse they want. For instance, Killing Someone is called Murder 1, Murder 2, Murder 3, Involuntary Manslaughter, Battery with the intent to cause terminal bodily harm, etc... If the USCG wants to write us up for overpowering, who know what they'll call it. I just don't want the hastle.. or the expense.

As for the ventilation plate, I just orderd one from Permatrim Marine's California Office.

I'm waiting for the S. Florida Boat Show to get a better deal on a New Gel Coat for my 20' Outrage and will send photos to all then. I've even picked out name to match the colors - and/or visa versa.

In a few years, once the weights come down, either I'll do twin 90's with a 10" engine plate, or a 4 Stroke 175. In the meantime, I'm going to have fun entertaining the kids and friends.

Thanks everyone.

Allen (aka: the Beach Panda)

HAPPYJIM posted 01-14-2004 07:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for HAPPYJIM  Send Email to HAPPYJIM     
I guess things have really changed with the Coast Guard over the years......we used to be more concerned about what swimsuit the girls were wearing than engine horse power.
lhg posted 01-14-2004 08:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Less than a year ago, my 18 Outrage with 230HP on it was boarded by the USGC for a routine inspection. They went over everything in the boat, and never said a thing about the engines. They were more concerned about the absence of a throwable boat cushion, which I had left in the car. I got a warning.
tomroe posted 01-15-2004 07:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for tomroe  Send Email to tomroe     
I checked with my nephew who is in the USCG and stationed in Florida. He echoed lhg's comments about being more concerned about life jackets, etc. and said that overpowering is not a Coast Guard violation but may be a state violation, but they can't enforce state rules.

From a personal point of view, I also have a V-20 and think you will be disappointed with the 150. I had a 235 on mine last summer until it blew and i am repowering this spring with at least a 200.

BEACHPANDA posted 01-17-2004 07:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
It seems that the forum might be 100% correct on the USCG issue. I again spoke to the folks at Bob Hewes Boats and they finally told me that their contract with the USCG prevents them from Overpowering boats. Since my V-20 is already there, undergoing significant restoration, the Yamaha 150 hp 4 stroke is the only option for now. I don't understand why I had had so many different stories, but as this is my first boat, in a looooong time, and I've got little ones to take with me as well, I may as well roll with flow - for now.

Oddly enough, the folks there have said to me that they expect me to trade up vs. repower in the future. I don't know what to make of that. Does that happen with new owners? I was actually very happy finding this boat, as it was larger than the 13'-17' BW's I'd seen and in much better shape. It was towable to boot.

Lastly, I'm having an extended 15' Custom Bimini put on the boat instead of an extended T-Top. Is there really a significant difference in the weight? Which is why I'm going to the Bimini.

Thanks,

Allen

jimh posted 01-20-2004 09:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The T-TOP phenomenon is primarily a result of the fisherman influence. It allows an unobstructed fishing platform. If you are not a diehard fisherman, I think a folding top is much better, particularly if you plan to do much travel with the boat.

Dragging a big T-TOP structure down the highway at 60-MPH is a problem. It adds plenty of drag, making the tow more difficult. The stress on the boat is considerable, too.

Fitting a T-TOP structure to a boat that was not designed for one may result in problems in fastening the frame to the hull. In a Boston Whaler it is not easy to add reinforcements to the interior of the hull.

For me, someone who is not a fisherman, a T-TOP is not an attractive addition to a classic Boston Whaler boat.

lhg posted 01-20-2004 01:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I'll be more blunt, Jim. I hate them, they kill performance and economy, and think they are the most oversold, high priced, cumbersome item on center console boats today. For trailering and higher speed boating, they are ridiculous, like dragging a hang glider around with you. For getting out of the weather (wind, rain and cold) they are also of little value. Strictly for fair weather boating, which is not BW's heritage.

None of this means I am not crazy, as they are very popular nonetheless! But I would not have one.

kingfish posted 01-20-2004 04:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Larry, you may recall the young Canadian gentleman who joined us on part of the North Channel Rendezvous this past summer had a T-Top on his older Outrage 21 (banana style), the front posts of which pulled out due to wind pressure on the way over to Killarney. Different boat I think, and certainly there are a number of ways to anchor T-Tops, but when I think of hauling a boat set up that way on a trailer for any distance at highway speeds, I do shudder.
Perry posted 01-20-2004 09:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Many people don't trailer their boat long distances at freeway speeds. Many Whalers doesn't go over 50 MPH on the water and many firshermen don't care for the straps and poles on the gunwale of their boat. For these reason's T-tops are popular.

Were I live, they are very popular because when you are on the water trolling for long periods of time, they help keep the hot Hawaiian sun off you and your lines don't get tangled on a bimini.

How much better is a bimini in wind, rain and cold?

kingfish posted 01-20-2004 10:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
A lot better, if it's part of a weather set enclosure, like Mills as an example.
BEACHPANDA posted 01-21-2004 10:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sorry I've absent in any comments... not that they're worth much - but I was attending to my wife's recent Pseudo Heart-Attack. We were vacationing in Busch Gardens w/ the kids and needless to say, our crisis changed our immediate priorities. We're back now, and the bottom line, she was suffering from severe Potassium deficiency. It's going to take time to restore her system back to normal, but at least it's nothing surgical!

As for the difference between a Sun Top vs. Bimin, I want to say THANKS everyone for your input. Before the comments, I was strongly leaning towards the Sun-Top. Now I'm leaning towards the Full Bimini Canvas from Wm Mills.

With the towing/trailering considerations, I'm leaning towards a Full Set of Wm Mills Canvas.

However, with a 150 HP on my v-20 at WOT, will the Bimini stay on, or snap off at the straps, while I'm out cruising with the family?

Your reply will make my decision a lot easier. Helen Marine says the Bimini straps will snap off, but I don't know if that's the case w/ Wm Mills. What do you think, or has been your experiences?

Thanks,

Allen

kingfish posted 01-22-2004 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Allen-

I may be the only critter in captivity to be able to claim such, but I have both the Mills suntop *and* the Mills flying top on my Outrage 22. The suntop is folded and stowed vertically against (inside) my arch when the flytop is flying, and the flytop is stowed forward in the bow when the suntop is flying.

The Mills weather set is designed to work with the flytop which is 3' to 4' from front to back, but does not work with the suntop which is 7' to 8' front to back. One of the projects I have in mind but has not yet arrived at the top of the pile is to devise a way with some zip and/or snap modifications, to utilize the rest of the Mills weather set with my suntop.

I have run in excess of 50 mph on numerous occasions with both tops flying (not at the same time!), run at nearly 50 mph with the flytop and weather set flying and run continuously above 40 mph for better than two hours at a crack more than once with the weather set up.

Properly installed and adjusted, Mills hardware and canvas will take anything you can dish out with your set up.

John

lhg posted 01-22-2004 01:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Seconding what Kingfish has said, as an owner of two reasonably fast Whalers with the Mills Flying top systems, any of the components, set individually or zipped together, can handle 50 mph and not come apart like so many others do. Running under canvas, I generally have no need to go faster than 50.

My experience is that the Mills flying top or sun top, used alone as a "bimini", is one of the best, with no side to side wiggle/rattle that most others exhibit. Mine are absolutely rock solid stable at all speeds.

kingfish posted 01-22-2004 02:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Larry (LHG) has noticed and written here on ContinuousWave somewhere that the Mills flytop for the Outrage 22 (which I think has the exact same dimensions as the Mills flytop for the Outrage 20), is shorter in fore to aft dimension and lower than *either* the Mills flytops for the Outrage 25 or the Outrage 18.

The result is that the owners of Outrage 20's and 22's have sort of a Hobbs choice; for foul weather and connection with the weather canvas, they have to fly the flytop, but it is almost too small (fore to aft) to do much good as a stand alone bimini, so for protection from the sun they have to have a suntop, which doesn't work with the weather set. And I can say from experience that in the rain, the aft edge of the flytop just barely dumps water behind you when you're standing at the console, but if you are sitting on a padded leaning post like mine, you'll take the rain down the back of your neck unless you put up the rear shelter.

Larry has opined (and I agree) that the Mills design may have been developed for the 22 earlier than for the 18 and 25, so adjustments were made in the design for the latter boats to provide larger and more usable flytops for more variable weather conditions.

BEACHPANDA posted 01-27-2004 09:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Getting back to repowering the V-20 Outrage...

My dilema is as follows: Since I'm planning on re-painting my boat, I want to put on a Foam Filled Armstrong Bracket. The extra weight of the bracket, basically demands higher HP than the Yami 150 I'm looking at, at Bob Hewes'.

After the Bracket Install, and repaint:

A) Do I trailer the boat, 7 hours, up to a dealer where I can get a 25" 200hp 4sYami at Dealer Cost (plus install)

or

B) Stay local and repower with a 25" 200hp 4s Merc, where I'll pay more for the Merc (Outdoor World)

Both options allow an OverPower install of the 200hp 4s, but my concern is the service afterwards.

LHG has had a lot of success with Mercs, but the bulk of the forum seems to lean towards Yamaha. I'm partial to Yamaha as the Japs have the right mentality to market share... just look at Toyota cars, or Komatsu Diggers.

What would you do?

Barry posted 01-28-2004 05:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
How does the use of an Armstrong bracket allow you to overpower?

Armstrong brackets are not foam filled, but do provide positive floation by way of a sealed airspace. They claim the added buoyancy can help to offset the weight of heavier engine(s).

BEACHPANDA posted 01-28-2004 06:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Earlier, Barry, was kind enough to point me to the following link:

http://www.continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/specifications.html

That information on that web page shows the difference in power and LOA between a V-20 and a V-20 with WD.

In simple math, I was able to calculate +/- 1.5 times the difference in HP based upon the added length of the Drive, addding to the overall LOA of the Hull w/ WD.

Thus, and forgive me if my logic and math is wrong, I came to my non WD V-20 max rating of 180hp, yet with the added length of a WD or Armstrong Type of Bracket, I should be able to overpower.

The WD, was OEM bonded to the hull, and added extra buyoancy. The Armstrong has a 600lb buyoancy too, but is not constructed w/ Foam as is the WD. Silver Marine, who makes the Armstrong said that the reason their Bracket doesn't use foam is because it's not fiberglass and is stronger - being metal. It could be said that they might have a reason to feel that the Foam/Fiberglass in WD is just not as strong as an alloy.

Meanwhile, if anyone can direct me to where I can get some specs as to standard Engine Brackets, like LHG & jimh have used, I'd appreciate it. I really want to compare specs, as I have Lift weight considerations to figure into my end calculations.

Allen

Tom W Clark posted 01-28-2004 07:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Allen,

Larry's Outrage 25 has an outboard bracket made by Armstrong http://www.armstrongnautical.com/ .

Jim's Revenge 20 is equipped with a pair of Springfield Engineering 10-inch setback/jackplates that are no longer manufactured.

Barry,

Adding a bracket does not change the maximum horsepower rating of a boat. It is rated for whatever the manufacturer rated it for (if they chose to rate it at all for boats over 20'). It is up to the owner to decide if he wants to overpower it. There is no law against doing so, though Allen is obviously using some logic to determine what might be reasonable.

BEACHPANDA posted 01-29-2004 08:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Tom,

Armstrong has some really beautiful Stern Mounted Brackets. Thanks for their link.

After reading the responses, and looking at Armstrong's web-site, I'm leaning towards a full stern engine bracket, and putting on twin 115hp 4s puppies.

At 230hp, and with the additional weight and length, I'll probably have the equivelant of something under 200hp, and closer to the original 180hp rating in original performance - though still overpowered.

Thanks to all for your input, insight, and advice.

Allen aka the Beach Panda

kingfish posted 01-29-2004 08:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Tom-

I don't have my CD here at the office to check, but didn't Whaler rate a given boat without whaler drive at "x" horsepower and the same boat "x" + "y" horsepower if it had whaler drive?

John

Tom W Clark posted 01-29-2004 08:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
John,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Yes, the Whaler Drive equipped models all had higher horsepower rating than their notched transom siblings. In the case of the Outrage 20 (1985-1989) the notched transom was rated for 200 hp and the Outrage 20 Whaler Drive was rated for 280 hp.

But as Larry's experience with his Outrage 25 with Armstrong bracket has shown has shown, adding a bracket does not earn a higher horsepower rating.

At any rate, once a boat is built and assigned a maximum horsepower rating, that's it. Modifying the boat will not get you a new placard later under any circumstance I can think of.

BOB KEMMLER JR posted 01-29-2004 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for BOB KEMMLER JR    
would filling the armstrong bracket with some type sprayable foam be of any benefit?I know there are a few products out there that would make this possible and i would think there would be some bouyuncy(sp?)advantage.
kingfish posted 01-29-2004 10:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Thanks Tom-

I was just trying to keep it straight in my head where basis' of justification (or attempts thereat) might come from after the fact if someone did exceed the plate rating after adding a bracket, but if they did so by amounts similar to the differences between the same Whalers with and without Whaler Drives.

lhg posted 01-29-2004 03:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Bob - On most of Armstrong's brackets, one has to have full access to the interior to both bolt it on to the boat, and to bolt on the engines, which bolts are "way back up in there". The engine bolts are completely concealed.

Filling it with foam would not be an option. They also leak a little, and pick up some water somehow. Mine has a drain plug in the very bottom. After a week in the water, I can pick up about 2 gallons of water or so.

BEACHPANDA posted 02-15-2004 03:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Hooray! Today I finally got to SeaTrial my BW Outrage V-20 w/ the 150hp Yamaha 4s. I've got a 21 Pitch prop, from the old 175 2s, and the boat just flies. There were two of us, w/a full tank of fuel. At 4300 RPM, we were doing 46mph. I may just drop down to a 19 pitch prop for performance reasons, but I am surprised and pleased to say the least.

AS a matter of fact, we hit one wave and we went airborne. Glad I wasn't running a 200hp puppy, or we could have gotten hurt.

In the end, even inclement weather cant hurt a cetacean when it's time for Sea Trials.

What can I say, but .... Oh JOY!

BEACHPANDA

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-15-2004 04:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, I don't think a 150 hp can twist a 21 pitch & even be close to the recomended high end of the rpm scale.
If i'm not mistaken, that engine maxes out at 6,000 rpms,....my guess is, your not even getting 5,000 rpms from that engine at wot & trimmed out.
46 mph at 4,300 rpms is like zero slip or even less if thats possible.
My experience with a v20 with 150 hp is 14.25 x 17 , engine raised up on the 3rd set of holes & twisting only 5,500 rpms...........
Somethings not right here.
Sal
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-15-2004 04:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, on your boat, what is the maximum rpms that engine is twisting at wot & trimmed out ?
That engine has to be able to reach the high end of the rpm range.
If in fact it does, [ I really don't think it can come within 1,000 rpms of 6,000 ]you should be pushing 65 mph & that aint in the books or even close.
Your setup should maybe get 49 - 50 mph maximum at 6,000 rpms but you say your getting 46 mph at 4,300 rpms which is 1,700 rpms under 6,000 ???????????
Are you getting your readings from a gps, sonar, or speedometer ?
What set of holes is the engine mounted on?
Your loaded with 60 gallons of fuel ?
Again, your numbers are way off, cause it's not possible.
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 02-15-2004 08:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sal,

My speed is coming from the Yamaha control panel. I will check it against the GPS (WAAS compliant) later this week and will let you know at to accuracy.

As for holes 1-3, I have only one set of holes. I don't know what the equivelant is, for the space that the engine is set into now.

As for RPM's, I'll check again, but I think you're right. I don't recall seeing 5000 rpm's.

I will post again with comparative statistics from my boats various read outs.

Is it possible, that the Yami F150 is putting out / rating the HP from the prop? Maybe it has greater torque than standard 150's? I don't know. Like I said, I will re-read the different read-outs and will post the results later thsi week.

BEACHPANDA

Perry posted 02-15-2004 08:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
beachpanda, as usual Sal has great advice regarding what prop you should use. Take off that 21 pitch prop and try a smaller one. Do you have access to a 19 or 17 pitch prop? Is your motor mounted all the way down on the transom? Where is your AV plate in relation to the bottom of the hull?

Sounds like you have a good set-up with that new Yamaha 4 stroke 150.

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-15-2004 11:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, if that engine is only twisting 4,300 rpms at wot, you will either destroy it or hurt it so bad in less then 50 hours, it will take a rebuild to make it right.
You are so over propped it's really hurting that engine "BIG TIME".
That engine "MUST" be able to twist at least 5,500 rpms or it's going to the happy hunting grounds.
I'll bet the right prop for that setup is either a 14.25 x 17 or a 14.25 x 15 & the engine needs to be raised 2" above the transom.
When over propped, it dosen't lug the engine only at the top end, it lugs the second you put it in gear &
"ALL" the way through the rpm range.
Think of towing your boat up a very steep hill in your truck & it's a stick shift & your foot is all the way to the floor & your still in 5th gear but only going 35 mph & thats all she wrote.
How long do you think your truck will last if you just left it in 5th gear ?
Thats exactly what your doing to that engine.
Do "NOT" run that prop anymore if thats all the rpms you can get out of her.
Yes, all the engines are rated at the prop now, so it means your getting 150 hp at the prop with possibly 165 hp because of the 10% leeway the manufacturers get on the hp rating [ 10% of 150 hp = 15 hp = 165 hp ].
Please, do that poor engine the biggest favor of it's life & try either the 15 or the 17p & let us know what your maximum rpms are & we will correct it from there if needed.
Look at it this way, I have the same exact boat but with 222 hp at the prop & i'm twisting a 21p prop & my rig is setup up for maximum speed, so theres no way your 150 is going to twist the same prop to the same rpms [ 6,000 ] because thats the rpms your engine must be able to reach.
Sal


BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 09:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
I'll be going out this afternoon. I called around, and the only SS Prop I can find is a 15 x 17. Will that work, or should I special order a 14.25 x 17 from a vendor a the Miami Int'l Boat Show (now in progress)?

I'll repost with the max rpm, late afternoon.

BEACHPANDA

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-16-2004 06:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Don't buy any props yet, this is just to see what size you need.
A 15 x 17 is ok but if it works out i'd opt for a 14.25 x 17.
I'v found that the 14.25 diameter is perfect for that boat, even a 13.50 dia works great with a 140 hp. so no need for bigger dia.
I'm almost certain your best prop size will be 14.25 x 17 Stiletto.
The Stiletto is a lifting prop & will give you a totally different ride then an oem stock s/s prop.
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 07:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sal,

OK, I've just gotten back, and here are the figures:

WOT RPM : 4300 - 4400
GPS Speed: 26 mph

I haven't bought anything yet, since I'm waiting for the Forum's Feedback.

I await theirs, and your, repsonse.

BEACHPANDA

BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 08:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Does the Stiletto lifting prop come in Stainless Steel? If this is the prop I need, where can I order one from?

Thanks,

BP

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-16-2004 09:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Obviously your gps is wrong.
Your engine isn't broken in yet so it should pick up another 100 - 200 rpms on the top end but that is still unacceptable even at 4,600 rpms.
Look in your manual & find the recommended rpms for that engine.
I think it's 6,000 maximum & thats where you want to be.
I have the feeling your engine is mounted way to low & it needs to be raised 2".
I would raise it immediatly to see just how many rpms you will gain, [ this is very important ].
While using a stock oem prop it might blow out after being raised up, but a Stiletto will hang on far better.
Yes all Stilettos are s/s &^ very shiny.
Hopefully after you raise the engine you will gain 200 rpms but thats still only 4,600 & thats still "WAY, WAY" below where you need to be.
Figure you will only gain 200 rpms for every inch of pitch less then the 21 you now have says in order to get to 5,800 or 6,000 rpms, you must loose 5 inches of pitch & that would put it at a 16 pitch which Stiletto dosen't make.
My bet is still on the 14.25 x 17 or 14.25 x 15 [ 15 sounds more like it ] plus raising the engine sound put you very near 6,000 rpms.
Believe me, yesterdays test run [ 46 mph ...which I doubt very much ]was nothing compared to the way that boat is going to perform when that engine reaches 6,000 rpms with the right prop.
Now, did you trim the engine back as far as she could take while at wot, because thats how you test it for rpms?
So many people think their rigs are set up correctly just because the boat moves, thats just not the correct way a boat should be set up, & i'm very surprised the dealer who sold you & set the engine up isn't checking the results of that prop.
That is so very un-professional it's really sad.
I'v found many dealers really don't understand the dynamics of props & just put anything they have hanging around just to get rid of it.
I had 2 different dealers insist I needed a 4 blade viper prop for my boat.
They were soooooo far off I just shook my head in disgust & did my own figuring which came out about 100% better then their recomendation.
If you were to continue to run that prop thats now on your engine, your engine would be shot in 6 months or maybe 100 hours.
Sal

BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 09:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Testing the RPM's at WOT, I had had the engine tucked in as far as it would go. If it was tucked in anymore than that, it would have been destroying the are of my body usually reserved for such things as an enema - something I've never had.

I read another thread, and see that Stiletto's at Overton's. The price doesn't scare me, but I can't do anything about my engine mount. The guys that installed the engine are pretty confident in their ability to properly mount engines. Does what you say give me any confidence in them? Well, let's just say that I'll buy the 14.25 x 17 prop from Overton's and be done with these guys.

I say this, because when I was out with them yesterday, they said there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with me running a 21pitch prop and NEVER GETTING TO WOT. I had asked them if I never cruised faster than whay they told me the boat was doing, I would be happy, and then they just smiled.

I thank you, and the forum, very much for your advice.

BEACHPANDA

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-16-2004 09:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Sorry about being so windy but this really gets my goat.
In case your interested, if that engine blows up tomorrow & the factory looks into it & finds your that much over propped & the computer shows your only getting 4,200 - 4,400 rpms at wot, you wont have a leg to stand on & you "WONT" be covered under warranty.
It's like putting semi truck & trailer tires on a new honda car as soon as you got it off the lot.
I'd go back to whoever installed that prop & tell them a thing or 2 because thats just plain wrong.
Better get it off "RIGHT NOW".
Theres nothing wrong with that engine, just the wrong propulsion by a long mile & you need to tell them just that.
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 09:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
By the way, regardless of what the potential speeds are, my wife and children (5, 7, & 9 years old) don't like cruising more than 10mph. The higher speeds will be for fishing grounds, water skiing, and boys day out.

BP

BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 09:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     

Before I press the "enter" key and buy the Stilletto 14.25 x 17 prop from Overton's, I just want to make sure that I'll be OK with that pitch and dia and not kill the engine.

BEACHPANDA

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-16-2004 09:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, please listen to me.
Do "NOT" buy anything just yet until you try it.
I have a very strong feeling your going to need a 14.25 x 15 prop & the 17p just might not allow that engine to rev where it needs to.
Your not listening to me, I said "TRIMMED OUT , not "IN".
Trimmed out is trimmed back or away from the boat, trimmed in [ which your telling me ] means tucked in as tight as you can get it to your rear end.
Trim it out or back or away from the boat, not in.
When you trim in your forcing the boat to run very flat & trimmed out allows it to break loose from the friction of the whole bottom being in the water & thats "NOT" where you should be running it.
When you trim out, the bow will raise up & the boat will ride on the last 1/4 of the bottom, trim in & the boat is stuck to the water like glue.
If you were getting 4400 - 4600 rpms while trimmed "IN" & "NOT" out as I said, you should gain another 400 rpms after trimming it "OUT".
Sal
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-16-2004 09:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, again, no matter what speed you choose to cruise at, if your over propped, it lugs the engine the very second you put it in gear.
It's like putting monster tires on your car or truck, where 1st gear used to be, now seems like it's 2nd or somewhere in between 2nd & 3rd gear, it's just not right no matter what speed you choose to run.
Even at 10 mph, if your over propped you have to push the throttle much farther forward then if you were propped correctly.
For instance if your over propped & put the throttle handle exacly 1/2 or exactly right in the middle of the binnacal, & get 25 mph, now put the right prop on & put the throttle handle exactly where it was with the wrong prop, you would now be traveling about 30 mph & the engine just coasting & barely working up a sweat instead of in labor like a pg woman struggling to get there.
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 02-16-2004 09:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sal's comments ring loud and clear. I'll head out on Wednesday and try to TRIM OUT w/the 21p. I'll see what the performance is then and report back.

In the meantime, tomorrow, I'll call Overtons and ask if they have an exchange program on the the 14.25 x 17 prop from Stiletto Prop. If they do, it's off to the races I go.

If the 14.25 x 17 prop from Stiletto still doesn't get me where I need to go, which 14.25 x 15 is recommended, and where can I get it?

BEACHPANDA

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-16-2004 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Now your talking.
Yes Overtons will allow you to exchange withing 30 days [ at least they used to ] as long as the prop isn't full of grease or damaged.
They expect it back, the way they sent it.
Yes, Stletto has a 14.25 x 15.
Now remember, trimmed out means putting the lower unit farther back away from the boat & trimmed in means putting the lower unit farther under the boat.
Get on plane, then give her wot & trim her out as far as she can handle, the bow will raise up & the boat will run much looser & might want to porpois, if she starts to porpois the engine needs to be raised "UP" about 2" & that should correct it.
Sorry to be kinda short but the dealer really isn't being the knowledgable person he's supposed to be & you must listen & follow directions exactly as given or we have nothing.
Sal
Perry posted 02-17-2004 12:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
beachpanda, another important question that Sal and I addressed but was not answered was:

"Is your motor mounted all the way down on the transom? Where is your AV plate in relation to the bottom of the hull with your motor trimmed "in"?

Go out and take a look. Motor height plays a critical role in propping your boat correctly.

BEACHPANDA posted 02-17-2004 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Regarding the Mounting of my Engine.. it's flush on the transom bracket.

I have a BW 1980 V-20 Outrage. The transom has a reinforced notch cut out by BW, at the factory, for the engine to sit 5" lower than the rest of the transom. The motor sits flush on that reinforced bracket. There is no way to raise the engine. There just isn't any hull/transom material for it to attach to. Right now the bolts are about 2" from the bottom of the notched bracket. To fill in that notch is a major expense, and I'd be better of adding an Armstrong Bracket if I were to go that route.

If it makes a difference, my Yamaha F150 has a 20" shaft.

When I next put the boat in the water, I will let you know where the AV plate is in relation to the bottom of the hull w/ the motor trimmed in.

I think Sal's suggestion on the two props is the way to go, and I will check the WOT RPM's w/ trim the next time I go out.

Thanks,

BEACHPANDA

Plotman posted 02-17-2004 09:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
I don't think you understand what people are saying about raising your engine. There are miltiple holes in the transom bracket on your engine that the bolts can go through - these are in a vertical line.

Which hole do the bolts go through?

If they are in the top hole, you can raise the engine several inches without changing where the bolts go through the transom.

kglinz posted 02-17-2004 09:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Beachpanda

Go back to the dealer you bought the motor from and ask him to help you. He probably has props around you can try. You may wind up buying a prop from him, but any good dealer will help you choose a prop and let you try it. If your dealer won't help you, and won't give you a good deal on the proper prop, you picked a poor dealer.

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-17-2004 11:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, lets address the raising of your engine.
When mounting an engine the top of the transom has nothing to do with how high you must mount the engine.
As explained above, the engine is held to the transom by the bolts that go through the transom, not the bracket sitting on the very top of the transom.
As explained above, there are slots & holes in the engine bracket that allow you to raise or lower the engine without drilling any more holes.
The bottom of the brack that is now resting on top of the transom dosen't have to sit right on top of the transom.
The top of the transom holds nothing, it's the bolts that hold the engine up.
To my knowledge that boat came with a 25" transom, why was it cut down ?
Whoever had that transom cut down to 20" ruined that boat.
I doubt very much that Whaler cut the transom, maybe a dealer but not the maker.
Sal
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-17-2004 11:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
By cutting the transom down to 20" from 25", the boat is now restricted to a fresh water engine, [ no s/s bolts ] & running it in salt water will corrode those bolts & it will be much harder to change the water pump because of corrosion or welding of the bolts to the engine.
Also, I wouldn't take the boat on the ocean because any waves coming from the stern will just come right into the well.
Your going to really have to watch how much weight you have in the stern, such as the batteries or kicker.
You better be sure the bolts that hold the engine to the transom were covered with the best sealant you can get because the bottom holes will constantly be under water & if their not water tight, your gonna have a rotten transom real fast.
You also better be sure you have good zincs on the bracket of that engine because the bracket will also be submerged & you will get electrolosis on that engine faster then you can say boo.
I would remove all the bolts [ one at a time & put them back ] & coat them with omc gasket sealer to ensure they will come out in a year or 2 [ water pump ] or they will corrode by mixing steel [ bolts ] & aluminum [ engine ] together with salt intrusion.
You might seriously concider a jack plate to raise or lower the engine & have the cut out section of the transom filled in.
Theres no problem with filling in the cut out section [ to keep water out ] if a jack plate is installed because it serves no purpose & holds nothing.
Sal
Barry posted 02-17-2004 02:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
Here's a picture of the boat with the old engine. http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=127253&ck=

Because of the notch I assume your dealer sold you an engine with a 20" shaft. It would have been preferable to have the 25" shaft even if it meant mounting it on a jackplate to get it to the correct height.

Regardless of that, the engine should be mounted so that the engine's anti-ventilation plate is not below the bottom of the hull. Ideally it should be an inch or so above it.

Perry posted 02-17-2004 06:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Sal, I'm just curious. Are you saying that 20" shaft motors are not intended for saltwater use? I'm sure many forum members (me included) run their 20" shaft motors in salt water. I've seen literally hundreds of them on boats that are run exclusively in salt water.

According to Yamaha, the F 150 comes standard with their Ultimate Corrosion Protection System in both 20" and 25" shafts.

What's the scoop?

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-17-2004 07:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
All saltwater boats have 25" transoms & some of the newer ones are now 30" transoms.
If you find a 20" transom on an off shore boat or blue water boat , it's not a newer boat & personally I wouldn't get on it.
Litterally all Boston whalers 20' & larger are 25 & 30" transoms & you will play hell trying to find a 20" shaft saltwater engine.
All of Bombardiers engines [ Evinrudes ] come in different colors, white for saltwater & blue for freshwater.
The blue engines only come in 20" shafts & no s/s bolts , the white engines come in 25 & 30" shafts & weight approx 9 lbs more because of the s/s being heavier.
Yamaha has their saltwater series & freshwater series also.
As you know, aluminum & steel don't mix well especially in salt water, s/s is less corrosive then just plain steel & will not corrode or weld together with aluminum like steel will.
Merc also has their saltwater series & if i'm not mistaken, they don't make them in 20" shafts or shorter, only 25 & 30".
Sure lots of people run their fresh water engines in salt or brackish water but a steady diet of that will corrode the lower units far faster then the 25" or 30" saltwater series.
The engine Beach has on his boat now is a fresh water engine, not a saltwater as it's a 20" shaft made for a bass boat that fishes inland waters.
Sure you can order a saltwater engine & drop the lower unit & put on a 20" shaft but it aint gonna have any s/s bolts or screws in it & the lower unit will come primed, not painted white as all their saltwater engines are.
Sal

BEACHPANDA posted 02-17-2004 07:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Here's the story for today.

I went to the Yamaha dealer where I bought my F150 (20") and borrowed a prop. They gave me a Yamaha 13 3/4 x 19p SS prop.

Please bear in mind that the Yamaha F150 has a max RPM of 5500.

Well, after I dropped a bushing and washer in the ocean, never having changed a prop before, and making a second trip to get replacement parts from the Yami dealer, I put on the prop.

At WOT, my results were:

RPM 5500
MPH 45-46

The folks at the Yamaha dealership said I'm hitting the spots as was designed by Yamaha. Any other pitch and diameter would cause a head to blow.

At that, a storm opened up and I had to head in fast. Also, it was getting late and the family was waiting for me to join them for dinner.

The motor is sitting in the second hole from the top of the engine bracket, on the transom.

Previously, Perry asked me.. "where is the AV plate in relation to the bottom of the hull with your motor trimmed "in"? Answer: I don't know. After spending the better part of 3 hours trying to change the prop (including Rush Hour Traffic) and the storm coming in, I never had a chance to look.

As for the Notch, I'm really concerned that the boat is ruined. I've paid a lot getting this BW back into brand new condition. Also, I bought the boat used, from a 3rd party. They told me that BW put the notch into the hull. Regardless, it's my headache now.

As for putting in a Jack Plate, or an Armstrong Bracket, and filling in the notch, won't I need a 25" engine? Yes, EVERY observation that Sal made is 100% on the money. I'm taking the boat to have it a NEW Gel Coat put on. I can have the place fill in the NOTCH, but then what? I can also have them make Sal's recomended modifications to the transom hardware. Then again, won't I still have an engine that's too short?

Bottom line, I can't re-write history. My boat and engine is as I have them. I can make modifications to the hull, but the engine - I beleive it's too late. What are the suggestions?

BEACHPANDA

whalersman posted 02-17-2004 07:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
Beach,

I would use this engine until she blows...
At that time, I would consider putting your transom back to factory and then purchasing a new 25" shaft engine...

Until then, enjoy what you have.... It sounds like you have everything dialed in now...

Joe Kriz

tomroe posted 02-17-2004 07:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for tomroe  Send Email to tomroe     
Barry,

Is the link to the picture the boat in question?

It looks identical to my 1978 V-20 Outrage, which I am pretty sure has not been modified. I use a 25" shaft engine mounted 2" up from the transom.

Tom

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-17-2004 08:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, I don't mean to break your cajunes but going from a 21p prop that turns at 42 - 4,400 rpms at wot to a 19p prop will not give you 1,100 or 1,200 rpms, it's just not in the books.
The maximum rpms you could gain by going from a 21p to a 19p is normally 400 rpms which comes out to max 4,800 rpms, not 5,500.
Something is really screwy here.
As far as the transom goes, just enjoy it for now but understand that the boat will be very hard to sell when it comes time & watch it while fishing or drifting & theres a good breeze going because it will fill your well very fast if coming from your stern.
I think you would get better lift & performance from a Stiletto instead of a stock Yamaha prop & much less $$$.
Darn, something is just not adding up here because that 150 hp shouldn't be able to twist a 19p to 5,500 rpms & the jump from 42 or 4,400 to 5,500 is just not in the books.
My thinking is you tested the old prop while trimmed all the way "in", thinking it was all the way out, & you tested the new prop while trimmed "out" but it still shouldn't give 1,200 rpms more, maybe 700 - 800 at the absolute very best.
When I ran my 150 hp [ 91 ]...2 stroke on my rig [ same boat as yours ], the best she could twist was 5,500 rpms and a 17p & she was jacked up on the 3rd set of holes running with only 5 gallons of fuel, not 60 gallons as your packing.
I wish I were there to check the tach & the whole setup because it's not normal by a long shot.
Did you notice the boat riding different with this prop, like lighter at the bow because of more rpms & more trim ?
Did she porpoise?
Sal
Sal
kglinz posted 02-17-2004 08:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
The transom shown in the post looks just like a 20 Outrage shown in the 84 catalog. Check to make sure of the length of the shaft on your motor. I've got a feeling it's really a 25". It looks to me that a F150TLRC is 20 " and a F150TXRC is a 25 "
Perry posted 02-17-2004 08:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
beach, according to Yamaha web site, the rpm range for your motor is 5000 to 6000. Your dealer seems to be giving you conflicting info.

Sal, according to Mercury's web site, saltwater series is 20", 25" and 30" shafts.

http://www.mercurymarine.com/mercury_90_classic_saltwater

BEACHPANDA posted 02-17-2004 08:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sal,

Once again, your experience is stellar. I did the previous run with the engine tucked in. This time, I trimmed out the engine. The mechanic at the Yami dealer figured that the prop I brought home would give me the right numbers. They were afraid to go to a 17p because they said I would "blow a head".

Your absolutely NOT breaking my cajones, and yes, I do wish you were here. But the facts are the facts, odd as they may sound. Maybe the increased RPM performance has to do with the decreased diameter.

You asked if I noticed the "boat riding different with this prop, like lighter at the bow because of more rpms & more trim". YES! It was a fantastic ride - even in inclement weather.

Oh, as for my F150, it's a F150TLRC.. as is on the invoice. By the way, I paid $9690 for the engine... dealer cost.

Thanks,

BP

kglinz posted 02-17-2004 08:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
According to the Yamaha website the max RPM is 6000. You might want to see if your dealer can let you try a 17" pitch.
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-17-2004 08:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, [ Allen ], the slight drop in diameter wont give you more then 50...100 rpms at most, usually nill.
I'm under the impression that engine is a 6,000 rpm engine & I think the tech is not up to date.
Theres no way you will blow a head on that engine as long as your between the specs [ 5-6000 rpms ].
You "WILL" most certainly blow one by over propping such as you were.
By allowing that engine to reach it's top end rpms your allowing the engine to run much easier through out the whole rpm range.
I'd go with the 17p in a heartbeat, the most it can give you is 400 more rpms which is still under the 6,000 max rating.
Maybe i'm day dreaming but I think I recently read where merc is doing all their engines 150 hp & up in saltwater series, I think just in the last year.
As for Bombardier, they still run 2 colors.
I'm sure TYamaha still runs fresh & saltwater series unless they just changed in the last year, because I know of to many people with Yamahas that say ...."Saltwater Series" on the 25" transom blue water boats.
This has been a good thread, hopefully informative for those of you who don't understand how important correct propping is.
Remmeber this, the prop controls the engine & determines how long it will live & perform, the engine dosen't control the prop.
Other then using the right oil & fresh fuel, the prop is the absolute most important instalation on your engine to ensure the life & performance of your rig.
Sal.
Perry posted 02-17-2004 09:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Sal as usual you provide great info regarding engine set-up and propping. I know this thread is about repowering a V-20 Outrage but I think some misinformation needs to be corrected.

I did some research and found out that Evinrude sells white (saltwater) motors from 115 HP to 200 HP in 20" shafts. Mercury, Yamaha and Honda do too. As a matter of fact, all Honda engine fasteners and hardware are either stainless steel or a specially treated Dacro material. I'm pretty sure Suzuki sells 20" saltwater motors too.

By telling beachpanda the engine he has on his boat now is a fresh water engine, not a saltwater as it's a 20" shaft made for a bass boat is misleading and incorrect.

BEACHPANDA posted 02-17-2004 09:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Thanks to all!

Allen aka The BEACHPANDA

whalersman posted 02-17-2004 10:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalersman  Send Email to whalersman     
kglinz seems to be right about the shaft length..
The "L" in the serial number usually stands for Long Shaft which is 20"...

An "X" usually indicates an Xtra Long Shaft which is 25"...

I'm not sure what the 30" shaft is as I have not seen one yet..

Beach, given your number of F150TLRC, it looks like you do have a 20" shaft.

There have been rumors of these letters changing but I have not seen them yet... This was partially due to the fact they most manufactures were no longer making the Short Shaft... Things have changed so who knows if these letters will change...

Joe Kriz

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-17-2004 10:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Perry, the manufacturers must have just gone to 20" saltwater engines because they sure didn't make them 2 years ago, [ last time I checked ].
If you look at last years & the year before you will find most all engine makers had decals on their saltwater engines that said just that & were painted with a different design.
Theres very little call for saltwater engines with 20" shafts because saltwater boats over 20' all come in 25 or 30" transoms.
I can't even think of any saltwater [ blue water ] boat that has a 20" transom, 20" transoms on bluewater boats is insane & asking for big trouble.
The only real logical application for 20" shafts is twins on a deep "V" hull where the engines don't mount in the center or alined with the keel, they are off to the sides 5" higher then the keel.
I know while checking the 2000 add for Evinrude, there were none [ 20" ] but could change out the lower unit of a 25" & have it painted white.
Sal
tomroe posted 02-18-2004 09:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for tomroe  Send Email to tomroe     
Would somebody more knowledgeable than me please clarify something.
This picture of Allen's boat http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=127253&ck= has the same transom as my 1978 V-20 Outrage. I just measured my transom and it is 25".
Is he running a 20" shaft motor on a 25" transom or am I missing something?
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-18-2004 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
If you look close you will see where the transom has been cut down 5" right under the engine.
It's notched out, not the whole transom.
Sal
tomroe posted 02-18-2004 11:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for tomroe  Send Email to tomroe     
Thanks, I didn't see the smaller notch, it makes sense now.
BEACHPANDA posted 02-18-2004 09:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
By tomorrow evening (Thursday - Feb 19) I'll post a few pics of the transom notch w/ the new Yamaha F150.

If I wanted to fill the notch in, and add some type of engine bracket, so that I could swap the engine for a 25" shaft, what would keep the new engine from falling off (w/ the fill in & bracket) as soon as I hit a fairly large wave and running near WOT?

There are a lot of fiberglass guys here in Miami, and some come highly recommended, but I'm not so sure I want to take a $10k chance w/ an engine, and find myself floating in the middle of the Gulf Stream (Atlantic) for a day or so.

Is the hull truly ruined or is there ANY HOPE?

BEACHPANDA

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-18-2004 09:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, the jack plate bolts through the transom below where your transom is notched.
Actually the 5" notch on your boat has ruined the resale value of your hull because it forces a 20" shaft unless a jack plate is installed.
If the notch is filled in, all it covers is cosmetic, because the bolts that hold a jack plate will be lower then the notched portion.
You would have a very, very, very hard time selling the boat with the transom notched, because the notch has comprimised a blue water boat that is now restricted to near shore or inland waters.
Theres a reason why blue water boats only come in 25 & 30" transoms & bass boats come in 20" transoms.
It can be repaired but a jack plate will still be needed because the strength is no longer there for the top 2 bolts to go through for a 25" shaft.
Don't worry about it right now, enjoy your boat & in the meantime look into a jack plate & fill in the notch.
Sal
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-18-2004 10:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, just re-read your original post.
Why do you feel you need tabs & foils or fins to get "out" [ not in ] of the hole.
That 150 without all the toys your talking about putting on will blow you out of the hole so fast you will get scared.
That boat has a very flat hull compared to the newer deeper "V" hulls.
It's the fastest of all the 20" boats Whaler has made.
Believe me, you wont have any problems getting "out" of the hole [ which means getting the boat on plane ].
My boat had a 1980 ....140 hp Johnson on it when I bought it & the 140 got the boat up just as fast as my 200 hp, like 2 seconds.
No need for foils, fins or tabs, just make sure the engine is mounted high enough to keep it from porpoising.
Your anti vent plate needs to be between 1 & 2 inches above the bottom or center of the keel [ center of the boat at the transom ].
Sal
BEACHPANDA posted 02-18-2004 10:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sal,

As for tabs & foils, I only had the trim tabs (Lenco) put on. I did not put on the foils (Whale Tale, etc.). I was told by my local Captain that it would unnecessary. Captain Dave said that he'd put them on for me, and be glad to charge me $$ for labor, but that he'd prefer I save my $$ for other things, or repairs, that my boat might need in the future.

Yes, my BW does take off, and I like the Tabs because they help balance the boat when I bring aboard several people of different weights (balast).

When I get my boat repainted (AWLCRAFT 2000) or give it a new Gel Coat, should I fill in the notch & put on the Engine Bracket at that time? If so, it certainly gives me engine options in the future, and from what I understand - additional performance.

Did I get the Engine Bracket suggestion right? Also, what should an optimum set back be?

Thanks,

BEACHPANDA


BEACHPANDA posted 02-18-2004 10:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Today, I asked Captain Dave about my 19p Prop, and going down to a 17p. I spoke about comments from the forum as well as showing him my Yami owners mannual. The manual gives a range from 15p - 19p depending on the load of the vessel. The Yami manual also showed an max operating WOT at 5500 and max RPM at 6000.

Captain Dave said to stick with a 19p, because where we went out to Sea Test the engine (and my boating skills) we went airborne a couple of times. He said that he thought I was fearless for having gone the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang Route.. in acutality, it wasn't done on purpose - just really rough seas.

In any event, he said that if we were at 6000 RPM when we went airborne, I'd have blown the engine as soon as we went up. If I didn't do it the first time, then I would blow it eventually.

Please don't think that I'm a thrill seeker. The area of Government Cut that we need to pass through to get out of the channel is extremely turbulent due to MASSIVE CRUISERS flying by, as well as having current coming from 3 different directions filling into the basin.

That being the case, I said I'll be happy to stick with the 19p, it's just not worth the worry.

ALLEN

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-18-2004 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Allen, your dealer is really screwed up & dosen't have even the slightest idea of what he's talking about.
Believe me, you can go airborn with a 90 hp with a 25p prop in sloppy water.
Going airborn has absolutly "nothing" to do with prop size.
I'm confused on your math.
You say the manual says max operating at wot is 5,500 & max rpms is 6,000..........if the max is 6,000, it's 6,000, their both rpms, unless they recommend allowing the engine to twist 6,000 rpms but not at a steady diet & 5,500 is ok.
I just can't believe that guy told you if you had a 17p prop & you hit rough water & went airborn, you would blow the engine.
Are you sure this guy is a tech & not just a salesman because he is "REALLY" fouled up & dosen't know what the hell he's talking about.
Basiclly what he's telling you is, if you put a 17p prop you will go faster & if you go faster & hit rough water you will blow the engine,....so we will not allow the engine to perform to it's optimum & basicly put a governor on the engine so you don't go airborn,....man, I'm sorry but I just can't swallow that.
Allen, that guy shouldn't even belong on your boat because for some reason he's really scared & is giving you the wrong info.
I wish bigshot or IHG would chine in on this because they would laugh themselves silly at his advise.
Sal

kglinz posted 02-18-2004 11:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Checking the performance bulletins on the Yamaha website, all but one bulletin shows factory propping to above 5500 rpm. I don't have a 150 manual, but a 225 rev limiter starts killing off cylinders at 6200 rpm. I'm sure a 150 has a rev limiter as well. If you're turning 5500 with a light load when you load up the boat with people and a couple of coolers you won't get 5500 on a hot day.
elaelap posted 02-18-2004 11:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
An incredible colloquy, Sal & Allen; a re-learning experience, at least for me. But Allen, and absolutely no offense intended...your use of the word "Japs" at your tenth post is objectionable to me--blame it on my thin skin or my "mixed" marriage.

Listen to Sal's advice and best of luck with your new boat.

Tony

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-19-2004 12:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Allen, your first test trials with a 21p prop were wonderful [ so you thought ], then we got you to listen & you dropped down to a 19p prop & thought, holy poop, this is where it's at, now it's time for you to take the final step & order a 14.25 x 17 Stiletto & you will under stand what i'm trying to pound into your head.
With the 19p & a normal load of people, gear & fuel [ more then you had with the dealer ] you going drop down a couple hundered rpms & your also going to use more fuel then if you let that poor engine breath as it needs to & run free-er [ new word ].
Get that 14.25 x 17 s/s Stiletto because it will also make your whole boat ride like it never has before.
You can't compare a stock s/s Yamaha prop to a performance prop, & until you try it, you will never know what that machine is capable of through out the whole rpm range, not just top end, & once you do, you will never look back & all you will say is,....Wow!
Order it now.
If you insist on the s/s 19p Yamaha prop, i'v got one you can have for $100 ..... but i'd run the 17p.
Sal
Clark Roberts posted 02-19-2004 09:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
BP, Sal has given you very, very good advice and your marine expert has given you very poor (incorrect) advice. Most likely no one on this forum will disagree! Happy Whalin'... Clark... Spruce Creek Navy
BEACHPANDA posted 02-19-2004 09:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
On page 40 of the Owners Manual for the F150, the following is the Performance specs. verbatim:

Performance:
Full throttle operating range:
5000-6000 r/min
Maximum output:
110 kW @ 5500 r/min (150 HP @ 5500 r/min)
Idling speed (in neutral):
700 +/- 50 r/min

If the forum still thinks that a 17p prop is the way to go, then I'll order a Stilleto and return the 19p.

This morning I spoke to the fiberglas restorer, and he will be filling in the Notch, and putting on an Engine Bracket for me, as well as doing a new Gel Coat, Fuel Tank, and New Console replacement (room for a port-a-potty for the girls).

Thanks,

Allen

Sal DiMercurio posted 02-19-2004 10:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Beach, the manual is telling you that the engine is putting out 150 hp at 5,500 & the operating range is from 5 - 6000 rpms.
I hope your last post is a typo because you say your putting a bracket ?
Theres a huge difference between a bracket & a jack plate.
Sal
wetdogsoup posted 02-19-2004 10:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for wetdogsoup  Send Email to wetdogsoup     
Sal,

Is Captain Dave's line of thought about going airborn that:

If you're going to go airborn, its better to launch with a 19" p @ 5500 rpm than a 17" p @ 6000, because at 5500 rpm WOT you have more headroom for over-revving before damaging the engine?

Just trying to learn :)

dfw

BEACHPANDA posted 02-19-2004 10:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for BEACHPANDA  Send Email to BEACHPANDA     
Sal,

Indeed it's a type-o. I meant to say Jack Plate. Thank you for clearing up the manual's language. I'm ordering the 14.25 dia x 17p Stilletto today.

wetdogsoup / DFW, you're understanding is on the money.

BEACHPANDA

Tom W Clark posted 02-19-2004 11:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Allen,

A jack plate might be a good option if you have, say, a 25" shaft length outboard that you want to mount on a boat that only has a 20" transom. It is not going to help you put a 20" shaft length outboard on a 25" transom!

A jack plate raises an outboard, it doesn't lower it, at least not five inches. The problem you will have if you fill in the notch and then bolt the jack pate on to the transom is that you will not be able to tilt the motor without it crunching the transom.

There is no reason a skilled fiberglass/boat repair person can not fill the transom notch in and have it be strong as it was when new. This is far more involved than just cutting a plug to fit the current notch of course, but it can be done.

While I certainly think the cutting of that notch is regrettable, it is far from being the end of the world. The boat will perform the same.

Because the notch is only the width of the motor's mounting bracket itself, there is not going to be any more water in the boat from waves lapping over the transom into the splashwell. There is no difference in capability (salt water or otherwise) between the 20" F150 and the 25" F150. the only significant difference is the fact that the powerhead is going to get dunked by a wave more often being five inches closer to the water's surface.

Based on the evidence you've reported the propellor advice given by Sal above is correct. You should have the 17" pitch.

bwmenemsha posted 02-19-2004 01:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for bwmenemsha    
l am in complete awe over this thread....this is an education that you just cannot find or afford to pay for if you could.Sal's comments, all of them should be put in some technical hall of fame on their precise content and presentation...l am glad that we now have that search feature cause l know right where l am going when l have a situation like this.Sal l salute you sir and a high 5 to boot!!!
Sal DiMercurio posted 02-19-2004 10:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Wetdog, whenever a boat goes airborn, any prop is going to over rev no matter what pitch, there is no leeway even if the prop was a 50p.
All engines now have a rev limiter that will automaticly shut the engine down if it revs to high, such as 6,200 on beaches engine.
Bwmen, thank you for the kind words.
Sal

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