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ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
New Mercury X eng info
|Author||Topic: New Mercury X eng info|
posted 02-12-2004 11:47 AM ET (US)
The new engine info is on Mercury Website.
posted 02-12-2004 12:49 PM ET (US)
Motors from 200 - 275 only are out for most of us.
Evinrude E-TEC seems a much more promising outboard for most boat owners. We'll see.
I am sure Mercury will have something to compete with it before long.
posted 02-12-2004 01:11 PM ET (US)
I didn't see anything new on there......same old stuff.
posted 02-12-2004 01:27 PM ET (US)
There's all the spec's. Just click on the "Verado" flash intro. http://www.mercurymarine.com/
posted 02-12-2004 01:33 PM ET (US)
I think if I bought one, I'd put a couple of antenna on top, and paint it Pink. Add some graphic detail, and it would look just like a big ole' pink shrimp on steroids curled up on my transom.
posted 02-12-2004 01:47 PM ET (US)
It does look better in the website video than in the still pictures I had seen earlier. Its heavy. No current Whaler published transom max weight numbers would allow you to install duals. Both 320 Outrage and 305 Conquest are 1220 Lbs max and a pair of 30 inch engines with SS props and oil weigh at least 1400 Lbs.
posted 02-12-2004 01:53 PM ET (US)
These may be very technologically advanced, but they are too heavy! 649# for a 200HP 25" shaft? The Yamaha 4s 200 is almost 50# lighter! I was certain that weight and size would be two of the primary design considerations for "next generation" outboards. I guess I was wrong.
posted 02-12-2004 02:50 PM ET (US)
Nice........has anyone heard about cost for this "system" ?
posted 02-12-2004 03:23 PM ET (US)
With regard to the weight on large Whalers, the promotional video on the Mercury site clearly show the Outrage 320 with a pair of 250Hp Verados (or is it "Veradoes"?). Therefore, Whaler has either re-rated the transom weight or modified the transom for the installation of the Verado twin engine package.
There have been reports on several web sites of people ordering the new 320 with the 250Hp Verado twins package already. I guess we'll need to wait and see which it is when their boats are delivered.
Happyjim: The cost was expected around the $18K mark but that number is unconfirmed by Mercury as of yet.
posted 02-12-2004 03:34 PM ET (US)
There's got to be a member at the Boat Show talking to a Merc rep right now. I'm sure more info by tonight. I was told, by a dealer, last Saturday, that the price is around 20K and that includes DTS controler, gauges, and harness. Just add labor and a prop.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 02-12-2004 03:47 PM ET (US)
Jim Hebert (jimh) and Larry Goltz (lhg) are in Florida now and are supposed to be going to the show this week. Whaler had given Jim four tickets to the show and I believe they were looking forward to meeting one another in person and talking about these new motors.
I am confident we will get a full report from Jim upon his return.
I too, am surprised by the tremendous weight of these engines. I had thought that keeping the displacement down and compensating for that with supercharging was going to save weight.
Larry told me he was still hoping to go for a test ride in the 320 Outrage with a pair of the 250s while at the show. He is still telling me it will go 68 mph. We'll see...
posted 02-12-2004 04:29 PM ET (US)
They make those engines outta lead? The Merc 225 weighs 66 more lbs. than the Yamaha 4s and 125 more that the 225 Yamaha HPDI.
Hey bsmotril, pass the cocktail sauce?
posted 02-12-2004 05:49 PM ET (US)
Wow, interesting technology, but this redefines the term "heavy metal".
This thread may set a new record for continuouswave. I am predicting at least 200-300 posts.
posted 02-12-2004 06:23 PM ET (US)
Yikes. I thought these things were supposed to be LIGHT WEIGHT! In my book this does not live up to the GAME CHANGING hype. The weight specification is without the hydraulic steering ram. If they raised the weight limit for 4-strokes like they have, they have left the door WIDE open for Japanese or any other competition.
The only advantage that I've heard in the videos is that these will out accelerate any 4-stroke or virtually any 2-stroke. Who cares except bass boaters? It's unlikely that I'll every drag race anybody in my 27 Whaler. It pops up on plane quite fine with the 225 Evinrudes I've got now and I don't have the extra 250 lbs hanging on my transom changing the balance of my boat.
This almost seems to me to be a classic case of a failure to listen to the voice of the customer, which I think was one who just wanted to get back their 2-stroke performance and weight with the 4-stroke quietness and economy. They missed the mark. All of the "fly-by-wire" stuff is of no real benefit to the consumer. It only benefits Mercury because it reduces rigging labor cost at the Mercury factory.
They invested how much to develop these? They better hope and pray that the ITC rules in their favor.
posted 02-12-2004 06:44 PM ET (US)
I'm thinking that the 4 Cylinder will weigh between 520 lbs and 550 lbs wet in a 25" shaft. A 225 Opti weighs 531 lbs dry in a 25" shaft.
posted 02-12-2004 09:21 PM ET (US)
Obviously the weight is a disappointment, although it looks to me that the motor was designed with 250-275hp in mind, as opposed to 200hp. I'm sure this has been posted in previous threads, but this has to be the UGLIEST outboard ever produced by anyone. Hopefully the 4 cylinder motors aren't so funny looking.
posted 02-12-2004 09:48 PM ET (US)
WOW! I've been hearing that Honda's were heavy and expensive for a long time. Now I guess we have a new leader in both categories. It doesn't really matter how fast it will accelerate when it is too heavy for your transom.
All the talk about how this new motor will change the outboard industry was getting old. Now it is time to find out how this ugly black shrimp will perform. It's saving grace may be that it goes forever on a quart of fuel and two of the 250's can push a 320 Outrage to 70 mph.
posted 02-12-2004 11:13 PM ET (US)
I am continually amazed at the gall of American Marketeers in their claims to "revolutionary new technology".
If those engines have anything new, they are keeping it secret. Everything else they trumpet about has been around from 20 to 80 years.
Applying some of it to the heaviest outboards ever offered in that HP range is something new.
Red sky at night. . .
posted 02-13-2004 08:39 AM ET (US)
Where's LHG? He is continually harping on how heavy and oversized four-strokes are and now his beloved Project X Merc redefines heavy and oversized (650 lbs. for 200 lousy horsepower!!!!???)
As I recall, he also had some harsh words for the cowling on the Suzuki 140. It looks elegant compared to the Mercury Jumbo Shrimp.
What a disappointment! At least now, the hype should end.
posted 02-13-2004 08:49 AM ET (US)
I'm not going to cheer for Mercury, but I think there are some important features:
* Sound Attenuation: This is huge. They tout 14 dB lower sound levels. For anyone familiar with sound, 75dB versus 90dB is like moderate conversation level versus what you normally hear on plane behind you with an outboard. This is also a big benefit to Boston Whaler sales. As you all know, the foam in the hull provides great sound proofing compared to conventional hull construction. Imagine the sales impact of driving a potential customer in a solid, quite Whaler versus a Grady White or Scout. The outboard engine sound previously masked all the noises (squeaks, rattles, water slamming the hull, etc) emanating from the hull- but not anymore. All conventional hulls manufacturers will need to improve their NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) response to compete. I bet all future Boston Whaler customers will be invited to take two boat rides: one in a Verado equipped hull, and one in anyone other boat.
* Vibration: In addition to the explantion above, there is the vibration component of NVH. You all know vibration in a car. Take the difference of your average stiff SUV versus a Lexus sedan on a brick lined road and you get the feel for different approaches in vibration isolation. The Verado has a subframe which contains isolation bushings for engine mounts. Have you ever been in a large diesel cruiser with and without new engine mounts? It is night and day.
* Weight: Yes, they are indeed heavier than expected. The increase can be attributed to the supercharger-which I'm guessing could be 50 lbs or more, and the steering mechanisim. The steering set up appears to be plug and play with an internal electonic assist pump versus the external hydraulic rack. I won't know for sure until people report who have seen it up close. The steering rack weight would be included in the total reported engine weight that is missing from other engine specs.
These are just a few very new ideas applied to outboards for the first time. I think they are evolutionary, not revolutionary.
posted 02-13-2004 09:00 AM ET (US)
Maybe there was TOO MUCH hype and everyone was expecting something magic.
I hope it works out for Mercury's sake.......and Larry's.
Keep in mind, when most companys proclaim "NEW and IMPROVED".....it usually means higher price.
posted 02-13-2004 10:47 AM ET (US)
Yikes is right! The 200 HP weighs 155# more than my 200 Yamaha 2-stroke...maybe if I move both batteries to the anchor locker...
posted 02-13-2004 11:37 AM ET (US)
Aha! I thought he was running for cover. I am just teasing him because he is such a Mercury fan. Obviously, the power-to-weight ratio is more meaningful when one looks at the 275 hp motor. I was surprised by the weight and suspect he will be disappointed - he was guessing at a weight in the low 500s, as I recall.
It seems to me that the market for these motors will be very limited - who would buy such a heavy 200-225? Maybe the 250-275 will sell, but what boats can handle such weight? Maybe a 9' beam bass boat - I don't need to be running in the 70 kt. range, that's for sure!
posted 02-13-2004 11:57 AM ET (US)
Has anyone else noticed that the Yamaha-based 225HP EFI four-stroke is gone from the Mercury website?
Under Four Stroke, the subcategories are Verado, BigFoot, Mid-Range (30-115hp), Small (9.9 and 15hp), and Portable (4-6hp)
What is Whaler gonna do about the 220 Dauntless, and the 210 Outrage and Ventura? These are max motor weighted at 610 lbs, and the 25" 225HP Verado is 649 lbs without the 8.5 quarts of oil and a prop. Will the 497+ lb (20" spec) 225HP Opti be the only option?
posted 02-13-2004 01:00 PM ET (US)
They must have changed the website last night. As a Merc/Yamaha 225 owner I don't care that Merc has dropped them. The warranty should be honored OK and after that Yamaha dealers can support them. Parts are generally cheaper from Yamaha anyway. The only real Merc part is a wire harness jumper, that allows the Mercury harness to work. Current Whalers are certainly not the target customers for the Verados. Comparing a 305 Conquest to a 295 Conquest, Whaler has made some changes that could help with the extra weight. The batterys have been moved forward. The A/C is clear forward in the cabin under the seats. The keel runs clear to the transom.(no notch) Transom is for 30" dual engines. It's possible that owners of current Whalers powered by 200/225 engines might drop back to a 4 cylinder 175 HP Verado.
posted 02-13-2004 01:08 PM ET (US)
It could well be that Mercury will continue to supply the Yamaha 225HP to Whaler for a short while. I think if I was considering one of these 3 Whalers, and wanted a 225HP four-stroke, I'd be calling around until I found one to buy now. Like you said, I don't believe parts will be an issue.
posted 02-13-2004 03:08 PM ET (US)
These things look trick, and will probably be hot performers but were clearly not built for the repower market. A 200 hp Verado is 243 pounds heavier than the carbed Mercury 200 that is currently hanging on the transom of my Outrage 22. At 649 lbs. (dry, no prop or steering) a single Verado 200 is right at the magic weight limit for the classic Outrage 22 hull. I'm going to stick with smoke, noise and dry feet for a while longer...
posted 02-13-2004 03:27 PM ET (US)
Yes, I am sure Larry will also be very disappointed by the weight of these behemoths.
You're right, the weight of the 250 and 275's don't seem too bad compared to the 200. I think the classic 27 hull with the 10' beam could easily handle a pair of 275's.
BTW, I see Yamaha has a new 300 HP in their HPDI lineup!
posted 02-13-2004 08:12 PM ET (US)
One thing I am curious about. My 225 4 stroke is propped to turn 5900 RPM. If I could prop it to turn 6400, like the top end of a Verado RPM range, would I have what Mercury calls "jaw-dropping performance" How much would it decrease my time to plane which is the perceived downfall of the Yamaha built 4 stroke.
posted 02-13-2004 08:32 PM ET (US)
Having just bought a Yamaha F200 two days ago I was a bit nervous about what Merc would be presenting on the 12th. While I like the advancements that they (Merc) are bringing forward I am quite pleased with my Yamaha decision.
For me the weight and the added complexity of a super-charger are deal killers.
Just my $.02
posted 02-13-2004 11:26 PM ET (US)
How does Mercury squeeze an additional 75 HP from the 200 HP motor? Increase the boost pressure?
posted 02-13-2004 11:45 PM ET (US)
Take a look at the gear ratios. At 6400 rpm, those rigs will be screaming fast on top end. But i think they will really shine with the torque on the bottom end from the supercharger. In auto applications, a supercharge typically boosts your torque just off idle anywhere from 25-60%. That will directly translate into an improved hole shot and gives that niche solidly to Merc in the 4 stroke arena.
I wonder how long before an IO version hits the streets. That is where Merc will really start paying off their development costs, when they can share common power platform components between IOs and outboards. Here in central TX lakes, IOs outnumber the outboard by about 4 to 1, and 80% of those are Mercs now.
posted 02-14-2004 07:23 PM ET (US)
I know this only from having hunted this thing down last year when I was buying a dauntless with the (585 lb) Mercury 225 four-stroke. This Yahmaha Merc is still on their website, buried in the same spot under the Saltwater (then Saltwater FourStroke) menus. It has been in that hard to find spot since I can remember. And it still has a questionable reference to being SmartCraft compatible.
I can fondly remember being 12 years old and buying a brand new Mercury 50 HP four cylinder for my 16 foot clam boat. Manual start, long-shaft with the tiller handle. That motor ran great for me for 10 years, started on the first pull every time. I sold it for about 70% of what it cost me new. So I am rooting for the boys at Mercury to hit one out of the park with the Verado. I like the DTS, I like the supercharger, but I agree that the high weight will likely hurt the 200 and 225 variants. It will be interesting to see if Whaler adjusts the horsepower / weight limits on some of the boats like the 220 Dauntless, where it is currently an exclusionary 225 HP / 610 lbs.
As an aside the clamming on LI sound was great back then, and amazingly the price of clams wasn't much different from what it is today. I am glad I dug them back then (for the money), but I wouldn't want to be doing it today (because the money is now marginal). Farm grown is hard to compete with...
posted 02-14-2004 07:45 PM ET (US)
I have detected lots of grumblings regarding the weight and also the size. The 30+ center console guys are suggesting this behemoth is gonna make fishing off the transom virtually impossible. If in fact Merc has kaboshed the 225 4 stroke with yam and after the compliants re: dumping my feeling is these new pups had better work or they'll be back to 2 strokes only. We'll wait and see.
posted 02-14-2004 09:59 PM ET (US)
When big outboard fishboats first started hitting the water in the late 90s, the captains guffawed and stated the same arguement about fishing over the motors on the transom. Now in the under 35' class, the outboards outnumber the inboards. Other than trolling a spread, most people don't fish over the transom anyway. Once hooked up, a good captain spins the boat and keeps the fish off of either the rear or forward quarters. When is the last time you saw a diesel inboard, or outboard boat gaff a fish over the transom? The width of the new motors lets them be mounted on the same centers, so you're not going to end up with a narrower tuna door, or swim platforms at the corners. I just don't think it is going to make any difference one way or the other considering the way people fish both inboard and outboard boats now. BillS
posted 02-14-2004 11:36 PM ET (US)
Just saw the new verado at the show in Miami. Great ideas in it but it is heavy and big. Was impressed by the e-tec as it was rated 3 star by epa on emissions. They are working on larger horse power in the future and I think it is worth waiting for. They had some units on a display stand (bet they were dummys) that were future motors. One of the reps on the floor explained the oil is injected below the piston instead of in the combustion chamber and thus less oil and emissions. Just seems like a better idea and the fact of more power from a lighter unit is much better on a small boat. Hope my old engine holds up as I will wait and see! Lou
posted 02-15-2004 12:28 AM ET (US)
Hi Guys--Just flew back from Miami Boat Show. I'll post more tomorrow.
We saw the engines and went for a test drive with them on a Whaler 320 Outrage with a pair of 250-HP VERADO motors.
posted 02-15-2004 01:59 PM ET (US)
for some first-hand impressions and a test ride report.
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