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ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
Re-power: New or Used Motor?
|Author||Topic: Re-power: New or Used Motor?|
posted 02-16-2004 12:39 PM ET (US)
I have a 1982 Montauk in good but not great cond. I am replacing the original Yamaha 70-HP. A new fully rigged 90-HP Yamaha is going for about $7200. Is it worth the investment or should I look for a used motor on a boat of this vintage?
posted 02-16-2004 01:35 PM ET (US)
What are your intentions with the boat? Do you plan to keep it forever? What condition is it in now?
I ask these things because you're going to get a lot of responses that will be on both sides of the fence - based on the poster's personal boat, background, etc..
If your boat is in great condition, and you plan to keep it indefinitely, I'd go for a new powerplant if you can afford it.
If you're planning to sell the boat in a few years - or don't think it will last that much longer (i.e. - it is in poor condition) - then a repower with a used motor may be the way to go - the reasoning here is that if you sell, you'll never recoup the initial investment of a new motor in the selling price...but if you keep the boat, then the value of a new motor may be offset by the reliability and years of service it provides to you.
I just went through a similar question - rebuild the motor, buy another used motor, or sell the rig - I eventually decided to rebuild my current motor - along with that decision was the determination to keep the boat long-term to offset the cost associated with the rebuild.
If that is another option for you (rebuild current engine) - I'd go for that over a used motor - at least you know how the motor had been treated before the rebuild, etc.
Anyway..just my $.02
posted 02-16-2004 02:07 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the reply. that's just the kind of stuff I want to hear. The boat is solid. I refinished all of the wood a year ago, no botom paint on the hull but not super clean. I can see myself keeping the boat around 5 yrs. I use it for fishing & family fun in inlets, ICWW, and near shore in S.C. I think that the old motor is gone and 20 yrs old to boot.
posted 02-16-2004 02:45 PM ET (US)
Well - the value of a used Montauk of that vintage is right around the cost of a new replacement motor (Yamaha 90).
I'd think of it this way...would you pay $7,200 for a well-used Monauk with new power right now - knowing that you'll sell the rig for about $5-6K five years from now? If you're keeping the boat mantained well, I think that new power is the way to go...it will cost you (maintenance aside) about 2-3K over the 5 years...then you can likely sell the rig for between 4-6K (conservatively - I don't know what the new MT170 is going to do to the market for used classic Montauks).
I guess that is the biggest unknown - with the introduction of the Montauk 170, what will happen to the resale value of the classic Montauk? I'm betting that demand will still remain high, but the price point will drop from the $7-10K current range to the $4-6K range, with the newer used 170 boats settling into the $9-12K range - but it is pure speculation on my part.
Either way, I think repower with new will be the way to go (plus, plans change - you may end up using the repowered Montauk longer than you currently anticipate).
posted 02-16-2004 02:46 PM ET (US)
the 2-3K cost mentioned in paragraph 2 was attributed to depreciation in total rig value.
posted 02-16-2004 11:36 PM ET (US)
Unless you can consistently buy low and sell high, boats are not great investments, although classic Boston Whaler hulls are not typically huge losses--they depreciate very slowly if well maintained.
Outboard motors are another story. Once you plunk down $7,000 for a new 90-HP outboard motor you will immediately experience significant depreciation. Two years later you will be down about $2,000, perhaps more.
One thing to consider is that two years from now you will not be able to buy a new 90-HP lightweight 2-stroke outboard for you Montauk--they'll will have been legislated and regulated out of existance. This artificial market scarcity of decent 2-stroke engines might affect your depreciation curve--and not necessarily in your favor! Who knows exactly what will become of legacy high-emission 2-stroke engines.
However, if maintained well, that 2-stroke should be able to run for 25-years if you don't beat it to death.
Re-powering these older Boston Whaler boats is getting to be a tricky proposition because a new motor practically doubles one's investment in the boat. When trying to sell an older boat with a new motor, my sense is that it will be hard to get the full value for the motor.
Sometimes cash flow helps you make up your mind which way to go.
posted 02-17-2004 04:01 PM ET (US)
First off....$7200 is high. I can buy them all day long for under $5k. Being you do NOT need new controls, etc, mounting should be almost free. Yamaha was not in the US until 1984 so your engine is newer than the hull. I had a 90 Yamaha on a montauk and for the same money you can buy a 70hp Suzuki/Johnson 4 stroke if you shop(or ask me for a number) and you will have an awesome package that is emissions compliant, quiet, burns 50% less fuel and costs the same. Trade-off is she will only do 38-39mph instead of 41-42. There is a guy selling a barely used 70hp 4 stroke for I believe $3800 used here with controls, etc i believe.
posted 02-17-2004 04:46 PM ET (US)
The price included new cables,controls,install,taxes & prop. I have to replace the controls no matter what so I plan to replace everything. I have seen lower prices on the internet but when you start to add up the other stuff they all seem to work out to about $7000. I looked at a johnson 90 too. Again $7200 for everything. I had not thought of a 70 4 stroke until I wandered onto this forum the other day.I see there are lot's of opinions out there on the 2 vs 4 debate. thanks for your thoughts
posted 02-17-2004 11:35 PM ET (US)
mark11--Are you talking about a 4-stroke or a 2-stroke 90-HP?
posted 02-18-2004 10:28 AM ET (US)
Why do you need to change controls? They still use the same 704 binnacle control.
posted 02-18-2004 10:36 AM ET (US)
I have a 1980 Montauk that came with a 1987 70 hp Johnson. When I got the boat, the 70 hp Johnson ran fine, then something was wrong. I never had it fully checked it out and just bought a used 1994 85hp Yamaha. In retrospect, I wish I would have either had the 70 hp Johnson fixed and kept it or purchased a new motor, probably a 90 hp 2-stroke Yamaha. I don't feel like I gained much by going to a newer but still used motor. For the cost of installing and servicing the used motor, I could have put the 70 hp Johnson into pretty good shape probably. So in my opinion, fix and keep the 70 or buy a new motor. I wish I had.
posted 02-18-2004 11:00 AM ET (US)
Also, I have grown to be of the opinion that these decisions are more about getting enjoyment out of your boat, and less about getting your money back out of your boat. Kelly
posted 02-18-2004 02:17 PM ET (US)
I'm thinking 90 2 stroke. I like the power to weight of the yamaha and no external oil tank. Also, I was told by the dealer that the new control box is indeed different from my early-mid 80's Yamaha. I think he said that the controls pull vs push the cables? (maybe the other way around) but not compatable anyway.
posted 02-19-2004 02:58 PM ET (US)
Mark- you're really thinking an 82HP 2-stroke. Don't forget the famous + or - 10% rule on HP ratings. Check out engine cubes. Also compare alternator outputs, which are important these days with electronics, etc. You're right about oil tanks. Merc or Yamaha are the way to go, rigging wise. Might look at E-tec, however. It's a pretty slick package, but rated HP + or - is still an unknown.
posted 02-19-2004 10:45 PM ET (US)
I was in your place this time last year (1977 Montauk in good not great shape but I love it; dead motor). I went with a 2S Johnson 90 and have been very happy with it. I have 100+ trouble-free hours on it so far. I changed everything out (new controls, binnacle, Bombardier/OMC tachometer system) for at least $1,000 less than you are talking about. I kept the same propeller I had on my old (1991 Johnson 88SPL) motor. I haven't priced new motors since, but at the time, a new 2S Johnson 90 was $4,500 (new tach and external oil tank sent the price to about $5,100 plus sales tax), as opposed to $6,000 for a 2S Yamaha 90 (don't know about price/requirement of tach but I gather oil tank is not an added expense). I also added a 9" setback bracket, which was well worth it, even though the static trim is a tad worse than I'd hoped. Anyway, I don't understand why the Johnson would be as expensive as a Yamaha.
I do follow the argument about whether to get a 2 stroke at all, but me and my kids water ski, and I have yet to find a 4 stroke engine of less than 100hp that can drag my 190+ pound body out of the water on a slalom ski quick enough for my taste. For me, a 4S would not do...but if all I used my boat for was cruising and fishing, a 4S 70 Evin-zuki might be the very thing...
If your budget permits, go new. To get a decent used motor, you'll spend more than half what you'd spend on a new one, but you won't get the confidence or warranty you'd have with a new one. (This from a person who has resolved never to buy another new car.)
posted 02-20-2004 10:36 AM ET (US)
I call BS on the controls. If they push instead of pull I believe you just change a fitting.
John is right...the 90 Yamaha is more like 80hp. I have owned them all and the 70 Suzuki is close performance wise to the 90 Yamaha like I stated above and outperforms most 70's including the one you have now. If you want grunt....go Johnson/Evinrude 90/100hp 4cyl but fuel consumption is much higher as well.
posted 02-20-2004 06:45 PM ET (US)
I can't agree with your analysis that the 170 will appreciably force classic Montauk prices down. The boats are very, very different, though they share the same name, and every Whaler enthusiast knows it. "Real" Montauks (and now watch the sh*t fly!) fill and have filled for just about thirty years a niche market which I believe will not be challenged in the least when used 170s start to appear. Don't get me wrong (and I apologize here to my classical purist friends), I LIKE the 170 a lot...haven't sea-trialed one, but I'm sure they're fine boats somewhat in the Whaler tradition...they're just very different from the classic. If anything, in my opinion, the value of a real clean classic Montauk can only increase as a function of supply and demand, much like the substantial increase in value over the years of an M.G., Porsche Spyder or Speedster, etc.
posted 02-20-2004 11:02 PM ET (US)
man this is cool
opinions are flying. I'm taking all of this in and looking at some alternitives that I had not considered before this post. I'll let you know how it works out in a few days.
posted 02-21-2004 07:27 AM ET (US)
I paid $8,500 for my '85 Montauk five years ago. You say they've appreciated? Tell you what. I'll take a modest profit of $100 and sell you mine for $8,600 right now ;).
posted 02-23-2004 12:42 PM ET (US)
You will get $8600 if you tried and it is mint.
I have NEVER lost money on a Whaler except for one. It was a 1979 15' sport that I repowered and after 4 or 5 seasons I lost about $600.
posted 02-23-2004 12:52 PM ET (US)
Here's the verdict.
I took the advise of Bigshot and contacted David Jenkins (a forum member)in Durham NC to look at his 2000 70hp 4s Evinrude. David drove 4 hrs down to Myrtle Beach and we put his boat in the Waccamaw river at Conway. You could tell from the way David keeps his boat that the motor was going to run great. After an hour on the river I was sold on the 4 stroke. David offered a 90 day warrenty on the motor which will help me with my wife. We woked out some deatils and I purchased his trailer too. David kindly left his whole rig with me to have the motor lifted and were going to meet in another two weeks to get his hull back to him.
David turned out to be a great guy, he had his 7 yr old daughter with him. My 7 yr old little girl was too sick to go boating but I hope we can get the families together this summer.
Because of all of your help and this forum both David and I come away as winners. I've got a great motor for my Montauk and saved $1,000's over what I would have had to pay for the new Yamaha. David was able to sell his motor and trailer in less than 2 weeks from his post.
Thanks for all of your help
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