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ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
Heavier Motor Effect on an '86 20' Outrage?
|Author||Topic: Heavier Motor Effect on an '86 20' Outrage?|
posted 03-14-2004 06:43 AM ET (US)
I've just repowered my '86 20' Outrage with a new 200 Optimax. It should roll off the Mercury line this week and ship next week.
My old '87 Johnson 175 was listed at 396 lbs, and the new Merc is a hefty 497.
Should I expect any real differences in how the boat performs at low speed cruising? Might she sit much lower in the water at the dock?
Appreciate any thoughts you might have..............
posted 03-14-2004 11:53 PM ET (US)
As the weight hanging off the transom increases, the boat has to settle into the water more to increase its displacement. To estimate how much, use this algorithm:
--Compute increase in weight (New-old motor)
--Determine density of water (Look this up...)
--Compute volume of water to be displaced (Density/weight)
--Compute approximate area of stern one-third of the boat
(Here I am just guessing about where the boats center of pitch will be in static trim, but I would think that about one-third of the way forward from the transom should be close to the spot/)
--Compute increase in draft (Volume/Area)
Or, compute the increase in motor weight, and find a small child about that weight. Pay them to sit on cowling of old motor!
I am willing to guess that the new motor will drag the stern down enough to put the engine splash well drains under water, causing the deepest portion of the engine splash well drain to flood.
I have a similar hull (REVENGE 20) and have over 500 lbs. on the transom. My splash well drains are no longer above the waterline.
posted 03-15-2004 08:15 AM ET (US)
From the Whaler website, under specs for their boats, exceeding the recommended maximum engine weight may 1)Put the interior floor scuppers under water, 2)cause the boat to porpoise at mid throttle 3)increase the time to plane.
I don't know what the recommended max motor weight for a '86-20' is, but if it is around the 400#'s that you used to hang on the stern, Whaler warns of the possibility of the above problems.
Anyone know where to find the max motor weight on the web for older Whalers?
Opti 175 is 431#'s...maybe a better fit? Cheaper, lighter and I don't think you would be giving up much in performance.
posted 03-15-2004 08:32 AM ET (US)
Please give the URI for the material you are quoting from WHALER.COM.
posted 03-15-2004 08:50 AM ET (US)
jimh, if you select the "Compare This Boat" blue box when viewing a page on any of the models, the following pdf is displayed http://www.whaler.com/Rec/pdfs/comparespecs.pdf
Northwhaler is quoting footnote 7.
posted 03-15-2004 08:55 AM ET (US)
The maximum engine weight for the 19' Guardian (18' Outrage) is 470 lbs. The 20' Outrage should be higher than that. So I think you'll be OK with the 200 Optimax at 497.
posted 03-15-2004 11:38 AM ET (US)
I had a 1988 20 with 200 1988 Johnson. Weighed a reported 460 pounds. The only thing I can tell you is that from my experience, and its just conjecture on my part, is that the 20 hull is sensitive to aft weight. I do not think it is a safety issue, but my 22 rides so much better. They may not be apples to apples (as the 22 engine is also mounted high up and I've heard from others this has flattened out their ride a bit). But if I were to repower my 20, I would seriously consider the weight issue. I wouldn't lose sleep over it as the 200 Opti will make the boat fly. But you might want to invest in a set of tabs and mount the engine up a bit. My biggest problem was in 3-4ft waves with steep face and short period. The boat just wanted to keep sticking that bow way up in the air. Then the stiff winds would exascerbate the situation. Conversely, my 22 will keep that bow down and punch through it. Like I said, may have nothing to do with engine weight, just my theory for what its worth. Downwind and calmer water and she should be awesome regardless. Best of luck. One more thing, you could relocate oil reservoir and batteries to console (mine were in the back- dual batteries also).
posted 03-16-2004 06:24 AM ET (US)
Weight is an issue according to BW. When I repowered my 1980 V-20, it had a 175hp Yami. The Tongue and most of the engine were shot, so I put on a new Yamaha 150hp 4s. BW had told me that no matter what I put on that hull, within reason, the hull would support the weight.
Now here's the things I kept in mind...
A new 150hp 4s Yami is rated at the prop, so add an extra 10hp in Power Head HP.. that comes to 165hp (150 + 15). The weights are certainly within the original specs that the boat was rated (HP) and tested for as for as speed.
When I spoke to Will Rogers (a BW Engineer) at the Miami Int'l Boat Show, I had noted to him that the V-20 w/ Whaler Drive was rated for 250hp. I asked if I put on an armstrong bracket, could I put on twin 4 Stroke engines. He said to me that the weight would drage the boat, and that I should put nothing on less than twin 115's. Twin 90's would not work... too much drage. By the way, the 1980 V-20 is rated for 180hp max.
BW wouldn't give me a letter summarizing what was said, but I felt comfortable with their recomendation. Remember, that the Armstrong Bracket offers an additional 600 lbs buoyancy to the overall engine capacity weight.
In the end, I ended up buying a 1994 Outrage 24', with twin 1993 Yami 150's. I'm currently repowering with new twin 150 4s Yammi's as my overall cost in the whole boat was less than $43,000 (new engines included).
Bottom line, the 200 should do you fine, but as Sal (I think it was him) previously stated, at WOT you will be flying with less than 2' of hull in the water. At that speed and velocity, turning and navigating is difficult.
My 150 4s Yami, on the V-20 had me at speeds of 45mph at 5200 rpm.
Last 2 cents of advice, you should ask to borrow a prop from the dealer. You may need a 21pitch. If not then a 19 pitch prop should do. Make sure you have the right prop before you break in the engine.
posted 03-16-2004 08:04 AM ET (US)
Wow, what an exceptional amount of feedback!
Funny, I have never waffled on a decision as much as this one. However, the amount of data and opinions certainly support looking at this purchase from many angles.
I have 24 more hours to finalize the decision, so.......
I'm leaning towards the 175 Opti right now, is seems to be the 'risk free' decision.
1. Speed: I am not looking to set land speed records with the boat. 40 - 45 mph is just as valuable to me as 48 - 52, and since I often have kids aboard, I'm rarely up in that range anyway.
2. Reliability: I'm sure both will be equally reliable (better be at this pricetag!), so no real difference.
3. Weight: The 200 pushes the choice to a tough point. At low speeds, my boat rides fairly low already with the old engine at 400 lbs. I have a 3 mile trip each way from the dock, thru the river, out to the bay or ocean, so low speed performance is an issue. I believe the extra weight of the 100 lbs could present problems in following seas as well.
4. Size - as jimh said, with the 3.0 block and larger cowling, the 200 will 'look' quite different on my boat than the old '87 Johnson 175. It could look like the boat has been on steroids, and thusly it's 'classic' look might be compromised.
5: Price - since I expect to keep the boat for 10 years, the $630 difference is negligible.
6: Resale Value - not sure of the impact here, any thoughts?
So, any last comments are greatly appreciated.
Many, many thanks to all, hope I can return the favor someday!
posted 03-16-2004 04:24 PM ET (US)
I also have a 20 Outrage '88 that has a 200 Johnson 1993 on the transom. When cruising the Mediteranian or North sea, I always have a full loaded boat, with always 6 people on board. I like to have the extra power and am happy with the 200 HP. I am sure that the weight is no issue at all, however, my boat has the dual battery in the console. But the family is always sitting on the transom bench, the weight is no problem ever.
I would go for the big block and buy the 225 Optimax and put on a high five 21 pitch. That's what I got on my 210 and that goes 52 mph and has all the grip you need and no cavitation at all, not even in corners.
Hope this helps.
posted 03-17-2004 10:00 AM ET (US)
I can't imagine that 100 pounds would be a concern. Ever have a passenger in the stern when coming up on plane or when riding along? Did it make a noticeable difference?
My buddy rides in the back of my Madetauk all the time. He is pushing 300 pounds. I notice it but it does not make much of a difference. Your boat is quite a bit larger and the weight you are concerned with is just a third of my example.
100 pounds more? I would not give it another thought.
posted 03-17-2004 10:32 PM ET (US)
Yes the extra weight is going to make her sit lower in the water & also make her porpoise at mid throttle if trimmed out a bit.
She will flatten out & ride as smooth as an arrow when you give her full bore, & you can trim her all the way out.
I don't think a 200 hp will twist a 21p prop unless the engine is up on the 3rd set of holes.
There's no reason to use a 4 blade prop as the right 3 blade will break your neck out of the hole.
Mine gets on plane in 2 seconds without even giving her full throttle.
If I only give her 3000 rpms out of the hole, she takes "under" 5 seconds to plane & thats with either the 19 or 21 pitch prop, [ depending on which holes I have her mounted on , 2nd for the ocean & 19p & 3rd for the river & 21p.
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