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Author Topic:   Re-powering 1987 GUARDIAN 18
alohacam posted 03-20-2004 06:42 PM ET (US)   Profile for alohacam   Send Email to alohacam  
Aloha all. I have a 1987 18 Guardian with a 155-HP commercial-rated Johnson-- a great moter, a real work horse. The problem is that it is also a real PIG. I want to repower but not sure what would best suit my needs. I troll(60%) at speeds of 10-14 mph (all day) 2-3 guys, full tank, gear and ice. I dive (15%). All dive spots are in a 10 mile range, 3 people 6 tanks and gear. I cruise (15%) at about 30 mph (the boat likes this speed). I waterski (5%).

With that said, I am looking for advice and opinions.
Much Mahalo (thanks) and Aloha
Alohacam

Ed Stone posted 03-20-2004 08:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Stone  Send Email to Ed Stone     
Alohacam,
I would guess you would have to change out
the controls and cables.In that case I would go
with a 150 Optimax.If your trolling speed was
slower I would suggest the 150 4-stroke Yamaha.

Also having a good dealer or outboard mechanic
near would weigh in on the decision,

There are some extended warranty offers out there
that make some brands the better choice.
Good Luck,
Ed Stone

Perry posted 03-20-2004 10:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Since you already have the Johnson controls, I would consider a 140 Johnson (Suzuki) 4 stroke. Talk to Joe Adams at Wimdward Boats. They are a Johnson dealer and will be able to do the install also. I bought my Whaler from them and it is convienent having them right here in downtown Kailua.
Perry posted 03-20-2004 10:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
Oops, I meant to write Windward Boats. Not Wimward Boats.
alohacam posted 03-21-2004 12:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Thanks guys. I am looking for more of the perfomance aspect for this boat. Info on how it would ride with a 135 optimax or what I would be giving up with a Honda 130 or I am better off with a v6 that type of advice.
I am not to worried about new controls, as the johnson is a 89' and I believe I would have to change them anyway.
I very greatful for everyones advice.
Once again, Mahalo and Aloha
Alohacam
george nagy posted 03-22-2004 12:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
I repowered my 1987 18' outrage a while back with a newer 150 Johnson ocean pro carb 60 degree v6. I replaced the old 1987 150 evinrude much like the one you have. The new motor is much more powerful and a lot faster but overall the fuel consumption isn't that much better although it is better on oil consumption, much better. The ficht Evinrudes are very efficient motors but thier reliability record has been quite questionable.

I would favor the Optimax 135-150 hp range as they have a similar 60 degree design as the newer Johnson/Evinrudes but are seemingly more efficient according to the publications. The prices I have seen recently have been very affordable compared to some of the other companies.

If I were to do the repower all over again today I would be caught between the Merc Opti 135-150 or the Yamaha 150 hpdi or 150 4-stroke. My concerns today would be the same as they were a couple years ago about price and performance but I would have the added issue of efficiency.

Good luck

jimh posted 03-22-2004 01:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Most Boston Whaler boat hulls really do not like the 10-14 MPH speed range. It is way too fast for their displacement mode, and way too slow for planing. Really, any 19-foot planing hull is probably very inefficient at 10-14 MPH speeds.

How can you "troll" at 10-14 MPH with a 19-foot Boston Whaler hull? You must be is a mode that is creating a very large wake and is rather inefficient in terms of propeller SLIP and fuel economy.

alohacam posted 03-22-2004 03:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Yes. I relize the speed is not ideal and it might be a little fast. But when fishing in the middle of the Pacific Ocean this is the speed required in order to keep up with the fish. It does make a big wake. The wake gives the lures good action. It's CC is set farther foward as the boat was originally used as a dive rescue vessel. This helps keep it flatter. The "19'" is the best all around boat I could afford, if not period. The waters here are normally "steep and deep", therefore I have always owned a Whaler, (1 13', 2 Montauks and 1 Guardian). Nor would I have it any other way.
I am use to the horrific gas milage. I would love to be able to get say, 2-5 mpg as apposed to 1 mpg at best.
When fishing, I run at about 2400 to 2700 rpms. I plain out at 3000rpm's then can back down to 2800rpm's and stay on a plain. My WOT is at 4900 rpm's trimmed out this pushes the boat between 35mph and 38mph.
Thanks again for all and any advise and oppinions.
Alohacam
Perry posted 03-22-2004 06:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
alohacam, are you saying that the 155 HP Johnson only pushes the boat to 35 mph at 4900 rpm? Sounds a little slow. Maybe repowering is not a bad idea. What is the WOT rpm range for that motor? Is 4900 rpm within the range?
jimh posted 03-22-2004 07:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
You are putting your motor to the test to maintain the boat at those intermediate speeds of 10-14 MPH. That is tough duty for any motor. I know a few people who make it a point to never run their motors under that type of loading, as it seems like just a very awkward point on the boatspeed-vs-horsepower curve.

I guess if you want to catch pelagic ocean fish, you have to do it.

Sal DiMercurio posted 03-22-2004 10:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Aloha, sounds like your running a 19 pitch prop which is 600 rpms to low.
By dropping back 2 inches on the pitch of your pro, will allow you better fuel economy & stay on plane at a slower speed.
Your best bet is, drop down 2 inches of pitch & put a set of plates on her to force the bow down & she might just hang almost on plane with less rpms, thus better fuel economy.
By only allowing that 155 hp to only twist 4900 rpms, your running over loaded as soon as you put it in gear at idle, & all the way through the rpm range.
Sal
alohacam posted 03-23-2004 01:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Aloha,
Perry.
The rating according to the book is 4500 to 5500. The power is rated at 5000 rpm's.
Jimh.
My normal trolling speed is from 8 to 10 running up sea up wind, down sea down wind is 12 to 14. These are the speeds that the moter has a good hum to her. I caught a 467 lb. Marlin while chasing down a school of Aku (striped tuna) at 17 mph off the back of my Montauk.
Sal.
I have a 17" aluminum prop. that I have not even tried. I beleive what I have on there now is a 19". It is stainless. Do you think Doel fins would work?
alohacam posted 03-23-2004 01:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
I'm sorry.
Thank you ALL very much.
Alohacam
jimh posted 03-23-2004 09:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Another question that came to mind--is that current 155-HP commercial motor really a bigger motor that has been de-rated? If that is the case you might want to go for a similar type motor when re-powering. Get a motor that has plenty of cubic-inch displacement, one that is also in 175 or 200-HP variants. The Mercury 2.5-liter engine is like that.

A big block motor might be better than a smaller block that has to be stretched to make 150-HP, like a motor that is in a series of, say, 115/135/150 horsepower variants.

From what I hear of the price of fresh-caught tuna, one big one might buy a new motor! Good fishing to you.

Perry posted 03-23-2004 01:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Perry  Send Email to Perry     
alohacam, As I recall, you purchased the Guardian from the Sherrif's Dept in So Cal. What condition was it in when you got it off the barge? Did you have to do a lot of work fixing it up? I'd like to take a look at your boat if you don't mind because I'm in the market for an Outrage 18 and might look for a West Coast boat too.

Can you email me off line?

alohacam posted 03-23-2004 03:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Aloha.
Jimh. In the repair book, all of the replacement parts and specs are in the 150 range. So I believe that it is the same as a 150. Great quetion though and I will look further into it and get back to you.
Yah, a Yellowfin tuna or Ahi as we call them, can bring in anywhere from $5 to $10 per lb.. Not bad when the fish could weigh in at 250+. Hey by the way, Mahalo (thanks) for this very imformative and wonderful web site.
Perry.
When I got the baot from the Pirates, oops, I mean Matson, took it strait to KYC and drop it in, fired it up, did a short sea trail and brought it home. The only thing that accured in shipping, is it got a little dirty. Sea trail fixed that. The only thing that I have done to the boat sence I got her here is, ad fluid to the hydrolic steering, ad a back rest/rocket launcher on the leaning post and replace the starter. I will however be needing to also replace the shifting cable.
The boat is in the water right now at the mouth of the Aikahi cannel. I would be more than happy to show it to you. call me at 780-4076 my name is Dave.
Thanks again.
Alohacam
alohacam posted 03-23-2004 08:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Aloha.
Jimh.
The sevice manual for this engine says the power head dispacement is149.4 cu. in. for the 150 and 155 it is 160.3 for the 175. I think this is what you were refering to. Other than the power rating the only other differance is in the gear ratio. The 150 and 175 are 14:26 where as the 155 is at 15:28 it also takes 23 fl. oz. more gear case lubricant.
Sal.
I checked out the prop. that is on there now and it is a SS 15x16 single cup. Is this the wrong prop? Do you think this is the reason for the low rpms high fuel intake.I think I will still try the other one.
Much Mahalos
Alohacam
alohacam posted 03-24-2004 09:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
I just put the 17 inch prop on and gave it a turn. I was able to trim it out and twist it to 5000 rpms. Did not have my gps so I don't know how fast I was flying. The prop had slipped a lot out of the hole, even on a slow take off it slipped a lot. Can anyone help?
Mahalo. (thanks)
Alohacam
jimh posted 03-25-2004 09:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It sounds like the difference between the 155<-->150 engine is the lower unit. Probably on the "commercial" engine they are using larger gears and a larger gear case (hence more lubricant volume).

The gear ratio is very similar:

14:26 --> 1.857
15:28 --> 1.866

LHG posted 03-25-2004 01:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Considering the uses, hull weight and loading described here, I would put a V-6 2-stroke 200 EFI on it, if single engines are your interest, specifically either the Merc 200 EFI or Yamaha OX 66. In the Mercury line, the 200 is same engine as the 150, so why not go for the 200's computer chip? Same with the Yamaha line.

If better fuel economy is a big issue, and initial cost is not, the 175 Optimax or same Ficht/HPDI model could be the answer. Have you considered a pair of Merc 90 2-strokes
at 305# each? No external oil tank rigging is a plus.

I would think a 130-140 4-stroke would be a disaster for loads and use you are describing. The 10-14 MPH range is where they really lack torque and acceleration.

Tom2697 posted 03-28-2004 02:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom2697  Send Email to Tom2697     
alohacam,
Sounds like we found another offshore fisherman using a great boat to chase the big fish. Welcome aboard!!

I run an '89 Outrage 18 that I repowered about a year ago with the Suzuki 140 4-stroke. This past weekend, I trolled for tuna (6-8 knots) and wahoo (10-12 knots). We missed the wahoo strike but boated 2 blackfin, 1 dorado, and a double header of yellowfin (and pulled the hook away from a third while fighting the double header!) Anyway, our total trip was about 160 nm in 4-6 foot seas. We returned to the dock with just under 1/2 tank of fuel (about 28-30 gallons left).

Good luck in your search!
Tom

alohacam posted 03-28-2004 03:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Wow on all accounts. Good day, great milage.
Well I was thinking of keeping the same pig until it died. Today after finally getting the right prop for the boat. (ended up being the 15x15 ran about 40 and wot was 5300)The VRO gave out with no warning and fried the engine (boohoo). I was close to home so it wasen't a long wait till a friend arrived. (Theres no vessel assist in Hawaii) Any way now is the time to repower! Hows the poformance on that 140. Hows the hole shot and top end. I am not a speed racer (anymore) and don't need to skid across the water, but I do need the juice to be able to get out of trouble quikly.
Mahalo and Aloha.
Alohacam
Tom2697 posted 03-29-2004 10:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom2697  Send Email to Tom2697     
Bummer about your motor...My old engine seized so I too had no choice but to repower.

I've clocked the top end (on my GPS) between 35 and 39 knots depending upon load, waves, wind, etc. The hole shot is still powerful enough to pull a slalom skier (me at 185 lbs) up without a problem even while loaded with 6 friends (and beverages!!!) in the boat. She'll cruise at 23-25 knots around 4000 rpm and just sips the fuel...I could not be happier with the motor!

I just hit the 200 hour mark and am ready to take her in for a service checkup. The only glitches I have is a creaking noise when raising the power trim after a long period of inactivity (probably just needs grease) and my trim gauge works intermittently (not really the motor's fault though).

Tom

alohacam posted 05-18-2004 02:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Aloha All.
Well I have just finished installing my "new to me" motor. I have bought a Honda bf130. I realize that these are big-really big motors. I also realize that from the posts on this forum they are not real popular. BUT, I got a great deal on it so it was worth the risk (6 more years on power head warranty). Range, Cost, Reliability.
Hear are my performance results. Please keep in mind that the CC is set 2 feet forward, the batteries are in the leaning post, the boat has 3/4 tank or 50 gallons of gas, and 2 people on board.
The prop. is a 13 3/4x15x3 ss Honda. The motor is wearing Doel-fins.
0-plainnig took 5 seconds. Plaining speed was 19 mph @ 3300 rpm's. WOT was 42 mph @ 5600 rpm's. Trolling speed was 10 mph @ 2700 rpm's. Cruising speed was 29 mph @ 4200 rpm's.
I am sorry, I have no mpg to report as of yet. I will post these results as soon as they become possible.
The 505lb on the transom does not seem to a problem for the boat. But when my friend 245lbs, myself 280lbs, and the bilge plug out it gets a little to close to the transom top. I will more than likely plug it and use the bilge pump when the "BIG DOGS" are on board.
Anyway I am very happy with the performance of the boat and look forward to the LOOOOOOOONGGGG voyages ahead.
Aloha.
dg
alohacam posted 06-07-2004 10:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for alohacam  Send Email to alohacam     
Went deep for about 10 hrs last week. Trolling speed was about 10 mph. Full tank, 525 lbs of testosterone, 85 lbs of ice, 170 lbs of fishing gear. We traveled 70 miles in 4-6 foot seas. I only burned 22 gallons. AWSOME!!!
p.s. Only 1 55lb Mahi Mahi.

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