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Author Topic:   outboard selection
JeepRob posted 04-14-2004 02:19 AM ET (US)   Profile for JeepRob  
pros/cons of 60hp Mercury, 2 cycle or 4 cycle?
I spoke to the dealer about the issue and am still debating if the extra $1,400 is worth spending.
I have ordered the 2 stroke thinking that it will be a great motor. This is for my 150 Sport that is on order, dealer says that I can still change my motor choice.
What do you think?
Moe posted 04-14-2004 08:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
We went with the 4-stroke for several reasons. One, it's part of my retirement prep so we'll probably keep it a LONG time, and I foresee more environmentally sensitive areas eventually banning carbed two-strokes like Lake Tahoe.

Two, if by fortune we do get the urge and opportunity for a larger boat, it's already to the point where many in the used market are looking for four-strokes. A boat with a carbed two-stroke is getting harder to sell, except to those shopping primarily on price, and they aren't looking at Whalers.

Three, it's easy for my wife to use. No choke, no manual fast idle, just turn the key like in the truck, and away you go, with no stumbling or stalling.

Four, it can cruise at idle or off-idle all day without loading up. I've never had a four-stroke foul plugs except the time I went two heat ranges colder on an engine jetted too rich.

Five, it gets better mileage. We get 35-40 miles per tank, where the two-strokes run about 28.

--
Moe

DaveH posted 04-14-2004 09:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveH  Send Email to DaveH     
JeepRob:

You may wish to perform a search on "Pmucciolo". Paul bought a new 15' from Boston Whaler's CPD group last year some time. He powered it with a Yamaha F60 (60Hp 4-stroke). He had many comments about the set up which I think you will find very interesting and it may sway your decision to a 2 stroke for this classic.

If you have any difficulties, email Paul. He is very helpful and knowledgeable.

greyg8r posted 04-14-2004 09:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for greyg8r    
I think you can summarize 2-strokes vs. 4-strokes this way:

2-Stroke cons:
Less expensive
Lighter weight

4-Stroke cons:
No oil emissions
Quieter
Smoother
Better fuel economy

I disagree with Moe that it is becoming harder to sell a 2-stroke carbed engine. There are still a gazillion 2-stroke carbed engines out there on Whalers. I don't think resale of a Whaler because it has a 2-stroke carbed engine will hurt for a long time.

Just my 2 cents

Florida15 posted 04-14-2004 09:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for Florida15    
Just the opposite in my opinion........I think a 4 stroke on a classic Whaler would be harder to sell because of price. I've seen classic 15s with 4 strokes on them and the owners are trying to get $8-$10K for them. Not many people want to put out that kind of money for a 20 year old 15' boat.
I think a 4 stroke would be great on a new boat but I wouldn't put one on an old boat unless I was planning to keep it a long time. Then it would be a non-issue.
JohnJ80 posted 04-15-2004 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
I'd opt for the 4 stroke. The fuel injection is great - no more chokes no more balking when cold - it just runs better. The resale is better if you look at blue book values regardless of regional preferences. The gas mileage is far better. They are usually much quieter. They usually idle much better at low speed without the spitting and quitting that often happens with two strokes.

While I'm no tree hugger, I do understand the need to keep oil out of the water and to the extent that I can help with that, 4 stroke is also a good idea.

I also agree that it is on the horizon for 2S to be banned on some bodies of water. When that happens, the resale value of a boat with a 2S will plummet.

I understand the conservative view for 2 strokes and there are many great engines out there. But its a fact that the future is a four stroke world. I'd opt for the extra $1400.

The down side is that they weigh more. If your boat can handle it (and there alot of ways to make that better too) then go for the 4 stroke. They also don't develop torque as quickly (usually) as a 2S but most of these little boats we have pretty much leap out of the water anyhow and most of the 4S motors are pretty good in comparison now anyhow. Top end is pretty much the same.

J

Moe posted 04-15-2004 01:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
JeepRob,
As you can see, the 150 Sport is designed for the extra weight of the four-stroke:

http://www.engr.udayton.edu/staff/lriggins/Whaler/port.jpg

In this picture, the drain plug is out and the deck is bone-dry, despite a full 50 quart cooler in the stern.

--
Moe

4whaler posted 04-15-2004 05:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for 4whaler  Send Email to 4whaler     
I now own Pauls 15 ft. Classic with the 60hp Yami 4 stroke. Its a great engine but HEAVYYYYY. The stern squats lower and the general hull too. Maybe the extra weight of the CPD hull layup? Here are stren pics of my old 15 classic GLS I and Pauls (my new)GLS II configured CPD Alert hull side by side.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/2%20stern%20view%20lrez.jpg

GLSII with 4 stroke note differnce in gunnle height above water line from next.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/gls2%20port%20view%20lrez.jpg

GLS I sits higher with 2 stroke 50 hp.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/gls1%20stbd%20view%20%20lrez.jpg

JohnJ80 posted 04-15-2004 05:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
I went through this with my dauntless 15 and putting an Evinrude FICHT 75 on it.

It is a little bit of a science project, but I got it done and it is now far better than when I started and with the old engine. Check out:

[url]http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000664.html[/url}

and

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005308.html

and

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001024.html

The issues will be the height of your motor, whether you need a foil or not for hole shot, and trim range vs porpoising.

the solutions are:

adjust the height of the engine:
Guaranteed that the dealer will screw this up and mount it too low. Changing this can make it seem like you have a whole new boat. Amazing difference but the only way to find out is to experiment because it is dependent on how you load the boat, how you drive it and the typical conditions you boat in (seaway, wind etc...). Plan for this anyhow. You need to get this right if you are serious about your boat's performance. It won't cost you anything other than time if you already own a floor jack, a 2x4 and 2 3/4" wrenches and have a trailer for your boat.

change to a stainless steel prop:
for its added rack/cupping to keep the stern up and compensate for heavier engine.

adding a fin to the motor (dependent on properly adjusted height):
Aids in hole shot and trim range /porpoising

adding trim tabs (pro or con)
I like them big time. they can really make your 15' ride like a 22' or so by adjusting attitude of the hull to the seaway. You will be able to drop your planing speed significantly, you will be able to smooth our your ride in chop quite a bit. They are the ultimate trim adjustment on your boat coupled with trim and tilt on the motor.

I'd be surprised if you can't handle the added weight on the transom. There is at least one or more of the solutons above that will solve any probems you may encounter. Most people successfully do it with just the height adjustment and maybe adding a fin.


J

rbruce posted 04-15-2004 07:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
This $1,500 difference more for a motor is quite a bit. It will definitively offset your savings in fuel and oil alone, even at $5 per galon that they are advertising to scare us.

Two stroke motors are not Exxon Valdezes any more, they never were, most have oil recirculation systems that will burn excess oil acumulated in the primary compression chambers. Ask for instance what happens if some of the 4 stroke oil spills by accident when doing the oil change? Forget about the "environmentaly frendliness".

My 1969 Chrysler 20 HP does not smoke. This is a points and condenser motor, yours will definitively be a CD controlled motor with far more accuracy for delivering spark to ignite the fuel.

If weight is no issue in your Sport 15, remember that the less the motor weight the less weight it has to pull and spend on gasoline and oil and finally you could enjoy more payload in your boat for this reason alone.

I am not retrograde, but like they say in the insurance business fear sells and the fear of buying something less than state of the art should be offset with the logic of more money in your pocket, less maintenance and more payload in your boat.

rbruce posted 04-15-2004 08:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
Another thing, where I live a less than perfect democracy, law cannot be retroactive. That is that if you buy a two stroke motor they could not force you to comply with three or four star emissions down the road and could not ban you from using Lake Tahoe, for instance.

They did not ban outboards from Lake Constance in Germany eventhough it was used as a case scenario of water contaminated by motor propelled boats and craft by the EPA.

There could be some restrictions to curtail oil in the water like they do in Mexico City (for the tons of emissions spewed by vehicles there), with the number of plate in your car they will tell you when to drive it, and then people bought two cars to excersice their right of freedom of movement. The one they had to park and anotherusally a clunker without pollution controls to use it the other day, with the extra $1,500 plus interest you could buy another motor to use it in the "restricted" days.

Moe posted 04-15-2004 08:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
The nice thing about getting a boat designed for four-stroke use, as JeepRob is, is that it works well with the weight four-stroke :D

Whaler saw fit to install our 60HP BigFoot EFI four-stroke with the AV plate right at the bottom of the transom. I, and another here who tried it, have not been able to make the 150 Sport porpoise. And in my case this past year, we only had a 32qt cooler in the bow area, with a 50qt cooler loaded with ice and beer, a Porta-Potti with 3 gallons of water, and a 3 gallon bait bucket in the stern area.

At any speed, I could trim the motor up past optimum, where rpm starts dropping again, right before the prop blows out, and never experience a hint of porpoising. With full down trim, the bow stays down and the boat comes right onto plane at 3200 rpm. In 2' or higher chop, we do have to maintain about 3400 rpm to keep it from dropping off plane, and I'm sure we could improve that by balancing the load a little better.

I've never felt the need for a motor hydrofoil or trim tabs on the 150 Sport, but would agree they'd help a 15' Classic deal with the weight of a four-stroke at times.

--
Moe

JohnJ80 posted 04-16-2004 03:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
so, looks like to me based on first hand reports, it works fine.

j

kglinz posted 04-16-2004 03:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for kglinz  Send Email to kglinz     
Here's the deal on banning some 2 strokes in California waters. Follow the link for a list of lakes. http://www.dbw.ca.gov/mtbexp.htm
JohnJ80 posted 04-17-2004 03:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
So it isn't illegal to own a two stroke motor anywhere in California but it is illegal to us it on 11 lakes.

Grandfather clauses don't apply. If a governmental agency with regulatory authority deems that you can't use a motor on a given body of water, you can't unless you are willing to get the ordinance or regulation or law overturned in court.

So, while there isn't any prohibition of 2 stroke motors, it is certainly fair to say that in certain parts of the country, there are restrictions being entertained or in place on a case by case basis. I would think it is also fair to say that there is a probability that those prohibitions will increase (but the pace is uncertain) and that it is unlikely they will decrease (when have you ever seen regulations decrease?).

In the medium term, I would guess that this could and probably would affect resale values on a local basis. Areas with more regulations would have a negative impact on 2 stroke used prices. Areas with less would be more or less unaffected by it. If this becomes more widespread (my bet is that it would), then this will eventually affect the prices of used motors nation wide.

So, its a bet - will this continue and increase - and will it affect you if you buy a 2 stroke today and expect to resell it at some point in the future. Will it matter on the waters on which you boat? As always, we pay our money and take our chances.

My bet is to go for the 4 stroke - it is the safer route.

j


CHRISWEIGHT posted 04-17-2004 04:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for CHRISWEIGHT  Send Email to CHRISWEIGHT     
I have to wonder whether anybody has done a study as to the extra oil required to produce all the extra parts required for a four stroke and the extra spare parts which will probably be required to keep them working?

the only long term four stoke boat engines have been inboard with large capacities for low power output 3Litre 135 BHP for example it will be interesting to see how outboards producing 100+ brakehorse per litre fair.

just my 2 pennce worth.

regards chris.

Joe Kriz posted 04-17-2004 04:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
JohnJ80,

Don't leave the CLEAN 2 strokes out of the big picture...

Even Lake Tahoe allows the Clean 2 stroke motors as long as they are 2006 EPA compliant...

From what I understand, the 4 Strokes are going to have a difficult time metting EPA requirements down the road.. Many people are thinking that the 4 strokes are going to have to incorporate a Catalytic Converter...

Where do you put a Catalytic Converter on an Outboard?

Just some other thoughts........

Joe Kriz posted 04-17-2004 04:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
rbruce,

Old 2 Strokes that are not 2006 EPA compliant "ARE BANNED FROM LAKE TAHOE".... PERIOD.....

No grandfather clause etc.... They are Not Allowed....

There are other Lakes in California also.... The only other Outboards that are allowed are the 2 Strokes that meet the EPA requirements....

So your theory for California does not work..... Unfortunately...

A couple of years ago in California, it was against the law to Sell a NEW 2 Stroke Outboard motor... Period... You could not buy one... I went to Oregon to see if I could buy one and they told me they could not even sell a 2 Stroke Outboard to a person residing in California... The law has changed back for awhile, but California definitely wants the engines to be 2006 EPA compliant...

California is always coming up with something and always changing their mind back and forth...

Moe posted 04-17-2004 04:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Joe, at this point, the US EPA "down the road" IS 2006, and that is to meet the same standards outboards had to meet in California in 2001. A non-event.

The CA 2006 standard is MUCH stricter than the US EPA 2006 standard, and four-strokes have been meeting the 2006 CA standards with just carburetors for the last few years.

There are no stricter standards proposed at this time. These rumors of needing converters on four-stroke outboards were probably started by two-stroke DFI proponents.

--
Moe

Joe Kriz posted 04-17-2004 04:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
If anyone thinks California is going to stop at 2006 EPA regulations,
Think Again......

JohnJ80 posted 04-17-2004 09:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
Clean two strokes noted. I should say that it seems like there are communities drawing the line at certain emission standards. From my understanding of the situation, carbed conventional two strokes do not meet those standards.

Correct?

J

Joe Kriz posted 04-17-2004 11:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
John,

I think you are correct as I do not know of any conventional Carbed 2 Stroke that meets 2006 EPA requirements for California..

I can only speak of California as this is where I live. I have lived here all my life and have seen many strange things from the EPA.

In the 1970's, we were forced to put on the NO-Knox system on some of our vehicles... This was at the expense of the owner... About $50 to $100 (don't remember exactly). That was a hunk of change for me back then.. Well, a couple of years later California said that this system didn't work and we could take it off of our vehicles...
Were we reimbursed??.... No Way.....

Getting back on topic here for JeepRob, I think a Clean 2 Stroke would be my choice as I am still not sold on the 4 Strokes... The 2 strokes are lighter, meet 2006 EPA requirements, most are just as quiet and effcient, way less moving parts, less expensive, cheaper to maintain, and much faster out of the hole (if you want or need that sort of thing)...

I owned a small 4 Stroke for a couple of months... It rattled my Montauk so bad, I Sold the 4 Stroke and bought a 2 Stroke..... I do not plan to buy aother 4 Stroke for the reasons given above.

My Opinion and I'm sticking to it...

Moe posted 04-17-2004 11:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Getting back to reality for JeepRob, a clean 2-stroke is not a choice on the 150 Sport because Mercury doesn't make one in that horsepower range and Whaler's are now only available with Mercury motors.

--
Moe

Backfire posted 04-18-2004 12:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for Backfire  Send Email to Backfire     
Just to note that the patrol boats on Lake Tahoe replaced the Hondas with Evinrudes because they are the cleanest.
There is no preferance of 2 stroke or 4 stroke in the 2006 EPA/CARB rule has to be met by all engines.
"Cleaner technology direct-injection two-stroke marine engines, manufactured since 1999, can be used on all waterways in California, except for some waterways that have generic prohibitions, such as banning all motorboats or all personal watercraft."
"Already designed to be California Air Resources Board (CARB) 3-star compliant, the complete line of Evinrude outboard engines will be equipped with the E-TEC technology by 2005, including the big V-6 engines.
E-TEC engines optimize oil and gas consumption and create 80% less carbon monoxide than a 4-stroke engine creates at idle. Evinrude E-TEC engines use approximately 50% less oil than traditional direct injection systems and 75% less than traditional 2-strokes."
I believe there are several 4 stroke carbed models that do not comply yet. So we will have a choice of power well into the future.
Backfire
Joe Kriz posted 04-18-2004 01:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
There are always choices in life... That is Reality...

Just as I purchased the 4 Stroke and then sold it, there have been other members here that have purchased new Whalers with the Mandatory Mercury Engine(s), only to sell the Mercury engine(s) and buy something else of their choice.

Tabasco (Ray) is one I am thinking of and he already had the Clean 90 4 Stroke.. He sold it and opted for the 115 HP 4 Stroke EFI...
There are others that opted for other brands... There are always other choices.

That is Reality...

Moe posted 04-18-2004 02:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
The reality is that JeepRob doesn't have the same choice as Tabasco, et al, to install a motor with 28% more horsepower and no additional weight, from the same manufacturer, meaning they didn't have to swap out controls.

I guess there's reality and what's realistic.

--
Moe

Joe Kriz posted 04-18-2004 02:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
I agree with you there Moe...

I would definitely prefer NOT to repower immediately after purchasing a new Whaler.. But, that is an option...

The next step up in Mercury for JeepRob would be a 75 HP Optimax and the weight of this engine jumps up to 375 lbs compared to the 248 lbs of the 60 EFI 4 Stroke... The 75 Optimax is a clean 2 Stroke but too heavy and the boat would be overpowered.

Repowering with another brand right from the start would be more expensive to change out all the controls and gauges..

Moe,
Even Mercury mentions 2008 EPA regs on one of their Web Pages..
Here is a quote:
"Every OptiMax engine already exceeds the EPA’s emission standards for the year 2006. And the OptiMax 135 meets California’s stringent “Three-Star” rating . . . which means it’s compliant with 2008’s 91 percent reduction in emissions".

For What It's Worth as California will always come up with something else.

Moe posted 04-18-2004 04:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Joe, I could be wrong, but as I recall 3-star goes into effect for lower hp motors in 2006 and for higher hp ones in 2008. I seem to remember 150 hp being the break point.

--
Moe

JohnJ80 posted 04-18-2004 05:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
I have to say that I agree with the sentiment that the clean 2 Strokes are the way to go - EFI, FICHT, E-TEC and others. For all the reasons listed. I voted with my wallet when I repowered last year (75HP FICHT) and couldn't be happier.

That all being said, if you are buying a new whaler and you don't like the powering choices, seems to me you could do a deal either with the dealer or a swap and trade over move with another dealer. This would cost you something, but I think it would be manageable.

If you don't have the optimum motor on your boat (in your own personal view) it just is an irritant for a long time. If you are buying a new boat (something I have never done - I always buy used) you are going to put down a fair piece of coin anyhow. You could trade up/over and get what you want. My bet is that the price difference as a percentage of the total cost of the package is not much of a big deal at all. Probably several hundred dollars on $15K to $30K (depending on boat).

A 70HP motor is in the range of $5-6K. All dealer margins have been squeezed so it can't be a whole lot. If it was 20% (and I would think that is pretty high dealer margin) then it would be around $1K. I think that probably represents the high end (worst case).

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to trivialize the $1K but in the grand scheme of buying a new boat it is a pretty small percentage get the engine you want.

Incidentally, good thread everyone. Great dialog and interesting.

J

Joe Kriz posted 04-18-2004 05:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
Good Point John,

Some Whaler dealers may not want to do what you suggest but I'm sure some dealers would. Especially Whaler dealers that also had Honda, Yamaha, etc., outboard dealerships..

A person could buy a Brand new Whaler 150 as a package deal, then have the dealer remove the packaged engine as a "New Trade In" (so to speak) and then put on an engine of the new owners choice... The dealer would be making a profit on the Sale of the Whaler, the Trade In engine, and on the Sale of a different brand of engine. He would also be making money in his rigging department for switching out the engines and possibly the controls..

Definitely worth looking into if a person wanted a different brand of engine. Especially if he wanted a Clean 2 Stroke instead of the Merc 60 HP Classic 2 Stroke in this series in lieu of any Merc 4 stroke choices.

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