SF Area in a Montauk; Local Knowledge Required

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Author Topic:   SF Area in a Montauk; Local Knowledge Required

Salmon Tub posted 05-24-2004 04:12 PM ET (US)
I have a Montauk with a 90-HP Nissan. I have recently propped down to a 13.75 X 15-inch propeller. This gives me perfect range for trolling, motor runs great, and cruising speed ranges from 19-MPH at 3000-RPM to 25-MPH at 3800=RPM. This is the background informatiom to my question, which I address to the locals, because you guys know our water conditions well.
The problem: Most of the time, I run out the Gate, turn the corner, and head north. Though the Goldn Gate is often mixed chop, the corner is hairy, but manageable at slow speeds with some gooseing mixed in, and most of the time the shot north is fine. I also pick the better weather days.
Last friday, I took the boat to Half Moon Bay [on the Pacifc Side of the SF Peninsula]. I set a heading of 280-degrees, and then bam, bam, bam, bam, the whole way. I had my dad with me, since the forcast said [a swell of 4 feet with an interval of 14 seconds, which means the wave readings at a weather bouy indicate 4 feet every 14 seconds. Some say this is mean wave height, others say they are greatest wave height for a given period. Generally 4x14 would normally not even be noticeable], but when I stopped short and measured it to be more like a wave pattern of 4-foot waves with an interval of 5 seconds] to [a wave patern of 6-foot waves with an interval of 5 seconds]. There were a few white caps but still completely doable for a Montauk. I would venture that the bouy reports showed swell, but that the waves were residual wind waves from past the shelf.
At drift or troll, the boat was great, regardless of direction. But to get to a spot 15 miles out, you can not go at troll or drift speed. You guys probably have all seen what I am talking about, not a dangerous lump, but an annoying one, especially when going a long distance straight into it. I could reduce 40% by trimming all the way in, but that meant burning a lot more fuel and bogging down the engine. Any speed faster than 12-MPH made the boat slam a bit too hard for my dad and I just couldn't seem to bring the bow down enough where she would roll over the waves. She kept wanting to climb until about the RPS, then the bow dropped down and bam, the boat was not on plane either. My boat as set up now, starts to come up around 16 MPH, and fully up at about 20 MPH. Those speeds would have been a bit much for that direction that day. It was the Perfect Washboard!
In any case, what I want to know is, I dug up a Stingray Hydrofoil that I had in our garage from years ago. Will this help?
Do you use one?
I want to be able to reduce that bam as much as possible in those kinds of conditions. We get those often here, I am sure all of you local guys have seen them and been in them, and I know the boat can take them, I just don't feel like needing a chiropractor yet, and I am a bit sick of waiting for those milk pond days, they don't seem to come around often enough.
Will that Stingray help me get on full plane at around 12-16 mph in a Mountauk?
Will it help or hurt around Pt. Bonita?
My goal is to bring her up as full as possible at the lowest speed regardless of top end loss. If there are other hydrofoils that are quicker, please let me know. Thanks!
Chuck Tribolet posted 05-25-2004 05:14 PM ET (US)
The 9:00 a.m. Friday Pigeon Pt. to Pt. Piedras Blancas out
20 nm forecast:
TODAY ...NW WINDS 10 TO 20 KT...LOCALLY STRONGER SOUTH OF POINT SUR
WIND WAVES 2 TO 4 FT. S SWELL 2 TO 4 FT AT 17 SECONDS.
This is a bit south of where you are (I only capture the
Monterey stuff) but if IIRC, the SF forecast was about the
same (we were watching it hoping for a Farallones run).
Methinks you found the 4' windchop, which can be ugly.
I usually run trimmed all the way in, gas is cheaper than
doctor bills.

Chuck
Salmon Tub posted 05-25-2004 07:11 PM ET (US)
Ya, in reading my post, I was a bit long winded, so I shall post the question more directly;

For our local weather conditions, am I better off mounting a Stingray Hydrofoil on my outboard to help keep the bow down, or, should I buy a Doel-fin, or am I going to just put a superfulous accessory on my boat that will not alleviate the situation. I would rather find out second hand first, before I drill any holes in my cavitation plate. Thanks again.
Chuck Tribolet posted 05-25-2004 08:31 PM ET (US)
Some people seem to love the fins, but I figure that if it
really worked, it's cheap, and Merc, Bombardier, etc, would
factory install it.

Chuck
radiokid posted 05-25-2004 08:40 PM ET (US)
I am a local and have spent more than a few days battling the chop to get from here to there mostly Bodega area. Your question hints at all aspects of hull design to provide a smooth comfortable ride in a smaller rig. I have a 15 dauntless that I put an SC 300 on primarily to get the bow down when I don't have passenger forward and for this it works well. Typically out of Bodega I have a buddy forward so The tail effect is not noticed as much. I will go out in as much as 5-6x 10 any more is too hard to control the boat direction and if lucky, landing a large fish. THis is why I think a speed control based on engine rpm's is really desireable to have because it will give you access to all those speeds between plowing and planing. Gettin a little windy there!!
Al
prm1177 posted 05-25-2004 10:22 PM ET (US)
I'll chime in with Chuck, here. I think a Whaler with the right prop, enough power, and an engine mouted at the right height doesn't much need a fin mounted on the anti-ventilation plate.
However, I could see their value on a boat which is under powered, at the wrong engine height, or which is used heavily loaded. These are the boats likely to plane slower and need a higher speed to keep the bow down. I considered one on my OR17 (SF Bay) last year, but all my performance and ride issues were fixed by raising the engine.
Salmon Tub posted 05-26-2004 01:15 PM ET (US)
I agree with proper set-up since I used to have a light (160lbs) 40 hp on my Montauk. My passenger will normally ride on the RPS facing to stearn, and I have nothing up front to keep it down other than an anchor and cooler which is only full on the way in ;). By myself, she planes at about 17-18 mph, with a passenger, she will plane at about a mile or two more. In the conditions I described, when cruiseing at less than planeing speed, say 15 mph, the bow will climb far up the incoming wave, before she rolls on the crest, allowing the bow to fall that much farther down. If I speed her up so she planes, in those conditions, then she is like a stone skipping accross the water, which in my opinion, becomes unsafe. I would love to be able to reduce the fully planed speed down to about the 13-16 mph range.
Sal DiMercurio posted 05-26-2004 11:28 PM ET (US)
You need to trim "IN" not out to keep your bow down.
A fin will force the boat down at the bow, but certainly will not make it ride smoother.
I've fished these waters for over 40 years & in your case [ last friday ] you should have run out in the trough, then ran an easier tach to where you wanted to go.
There's just no way your going to smooth that water out in a 17' boat because your going up & down, not straight through.
I'm not a big fan of fins or whale tails because in some cases, you want your bow to ride light & the tail wont allow you to run at that crucial point just before she breaks loose.
I don't understand why your running trimmed way back????
By trimming way out your going to be looking at the sky on every wave.
Heading straight into anything 3' or better is going to break your back in a 17' boat,....try quartering the waves & you will have a far better ride.
As far as Pt Bonita, that piece of water at the first opf the incoming & a south or south west breeze is the 2nd most dangeous stretch of water on the west coast, so take it for what it's worth & idle through it .
You better respect Pt Bonita big time because it will eat you alive before you even know it.
You can't always run at the speed you would like to & nothing can help that unless you get a 50' off shore racer.
Sal
Salmon Tub posted 05-27-2004 12:14 PM ET (US)
Thanks Sal, I was hoping to hear from you, but, I was trimmed all the way in/down that day, that is why I was thinking of adding the fin, since even that was not enough to keep the bow down. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have been running the Sausalito to Duxbery lap for 4 years now, and am relatively familiar with Pt. Bonita and her fickle summertime ways. You need not worry, I have no intention of neither tempting nor challenging her in any way. The Waves at Pt. Bonita are often compressed and as you said, you need to be off plain in order for the boat to have the right attitude to plow through them. That was the next question, with a fin, will I still be able to trim the motor out/up enough so as to get that attitude? I would hate to add the fin to be happy out on the open ocean, only to find that I can no longer safely negotiate Pt. Bonita.
J
prm1177 posted 05-27-2004 02:05 PM ET (US)
I believe 4 x 14 would indicate a swell condition (not a wave).
radiokid posted 05-27-2004 06:40 PM ET (US)
One point I would like to make about the fin on the cavitation plate is that it only enhances the effect of the motor trim angle on the hull attitude. At level trim it has no effect at all except to maybe scrub off a little speed.
When the motor is trimmed all the way in a fin will add a little more leverage to keep the hull down. The effect of the fin is not startling by any means but it is noticeable especially if your boat is stern heavy to begin with.
I haven't regretted putting the fin on for 6-7 years now because the more of the "V" I can put into that chop the less change in altitude I will experience which for me means going faster before losing any fillings.
Al
Sal DiMercurio posted 05-27-2004 09:30 PM ET (US)
Tub, a fin will allow you to stay on plane at a lower speed & you will pop right up when coming out of the hole.
You really wont notice much of a difference in the the way the boat handles [ provided your engine is mounted high enough ].
If the engine isn't mounted high enough, the fin will still be under water when on plane & if you try & trim out, the front of the fin will create a drag.
It's very important to be sure the fin is free from the water while on plane or the water just flowing "UNDER " the plate, not over it.
It will push your bow down right now when you give her throttle.
By the way, I've been litterally slaughtering the salmon out of Half Moon Bay, 3 limits in less than an hour last sunday.
Went to the islands with Bob Franco last tuesday & 8 fish to 28 lbs, but 27 miles will wear you out a bit.
I'm going this Sat, Sun, & Mon.
I'm on ch 19 on the vhf, it's the coast side fishing club channel.
Sal
Salmon Tub posted 05-27-2004 11:13 PM ET (US)
Ya, ya, ya, I know, I've been reading your reports on CS. I can only sit at the office and read the reports. I haven't had a decent salmon year, numbers wise, since I finished school. Luckily, I was on the eight year plan ;). Giving myself the handle of Salmon Tub here was the last straw me thinks, just bad karma. You know how it is, all the good stuff happens Tue. through Thurs. We used to hammer them out of HMB all the time. Have a 14' Klammath I used to go out in and fish within 1/2 hour run from shore all the time. Drifted the bouys or off Martins beach all day long and eventually scratched a limit or two. Her name is the Looney Tune. Still have to name the Whaler. But, enough of the woes me...
I am curious about your post, according to the Stingray site, they say you want water above and below. When you say push the bow right now, do you mean if the motor is mounted too low, motored is trimmed way in with the fin, or in general? I raised the motor last year, and am borderline chronic blowout in stacked slop so I would hesitate to raise it even more.
radiokid posted 05-28-2004 02:28 AM ET (US)
I think in essence the theory behind the anti cavitation plate is to act like a shroud above the prop to hold water around the prop so it does not "blow out" or cavitate while manuevering. Hole shots and tight turns all have the effect of reducing that necessary area of good water that the prop needs to perform. Adding a whale tail greatly increases the area of good water available to the prop and allows a larger window of control than without. I suspect though that your hull is the major player here. I was under the impression that the Montauk hull design was tailored towards a stable fishing platform (read flatter) as opposed to an Outrage hull that performs well slicing and dicing. If so there may be a practical limit to how fast you can ever expect to go regardless of add-ons.
Al
jimh posted 05-28-2004 09:47 AM ET (US)
[Thanks to Chuck and Tony for interpretation of some unusual nomenclature, now incorporated in the text.--jimh.]

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Author	Topic: SF Area in a Montauk; Local Knowledge Required
Salmon Tub	posted 05-24-2004 04:12 PM ET (US) I have a Montauk with a 90-HP Nissan. I have recently propped down to a 13.75 X 15-inch propeller. This gives me perfect range for trolling, motor runs great, and cruising speed ranges from 19-MPH at 3000-RPM to 25-MPH at 3800=RPM. This is the background informatiom to my question, which I address to the locals, because you guys know our water conditions well. The problem: Most of the time, I run out the Gate, turn the corner, and head north. Though the Goldn Gate is often mixed chop, the corner is hairy, but manageable at slow speeds with some gooseing mixed in, and most of the time the shot north is fine. I also pick the better weather days. Last friday, I took the boat to Half Moon Bay [on the Pacifc Side of the SF Peninsula]. I set a heading of 280-degrees, and then bam, bam, bam, bam, the whole way. I had my dad with me, since the forcast said [a swell of 4 feet with an interval of 14 seconds, which means the wave readings at a weather bouy indicate 4 feet every 14 seconds. Some say this is mean wave height, others say they are greatest wave height for a given period. Generally 4x14 would normally not even be noticeable], but when I stopped short and measured it to be more like a wave pattern of 4-foot waves with an interval of 5 seconds] to [a wave patern of 6-foot waves with an interval of 5 seconds]. There were a few white caps but still completely doable for a Montauk. I would venture that the bouy reports showed swell, but that the waves were residual wind waves from past the shelf. At drift or troll, the boat was great, regardless of direction. But to get to a spot 15 miles out, you can not go at troll or drift speed. You guys probably have all seen what I am talking about, not a dangerous lump, but an annoying one, especially when going a long distance straight into it. I could reduce 40% by trimming all the way in, but that meant burning a lot more fuel and bogging down the engine. Any speed faster than 12-MPH made the boat slam a bit too hard for my dad and I just couldn't seem to bring the bow down enough where she would roll over the waves. She kept wanting to climb until about the RPS, then the bow dropped down and bam, the boat was not on plane either. My boat as set up now, starts to come up around 16 MPH, and fully up at about 20 MPH. Those speeds would have been a bit much for that direction that day. It was the Perfect Washboard! In any case, what I want to know is, I dug up a Stingray Hydrofoil that I had in our garage from years ago. Will this help? Do you use one? I want to be able to reduce that bam as much as possible in those kinds of conditions. We get those often here, I am sure all of you local guys have seen them and been in them, and I know the boat can take them, I just don't feel like needing a chiropractor yet, and I am a bit sick of waiting for those milk pond days, they don't seem to come around often enough. Will that Stingray help me get on full plane at around 12-16 mph in a Mountauk? Will it help or hurt around Pt. Bonita? My goal is to bring her up as full as possible at the lowest speed regardless of top end loss. If there are other hydrofoils that are quicker, please let me know. Thanks!
Chuck Tribolet	posted 05-25-2004 05:14 PM ET (US) The 9:00 a.m. Friday Pigeon Pt. to Pt. Piedras Blancas out 20 nm forecast: TODAY ...NW WINDS 10 TO 20 KT...LOCALLY STRONGER SOUTH OF POINT SUR WIND WAVES 2 TO 4 FT. S SWELL 2 TO 4 FT AT 17 SECONDS. This is a bit south of where you are (I only capture the Monterey stuff) but if IIRC, the SF forecast was about the same (we were watching it hoping for a Farallones run). Methinks you found the 4' windchop, which can be ugly. I usually run trimmed all the way in, gas is cheaper than doctor bills. Chuck
Salmon Tub	posted 05-25-2004 07:11 PM ET (US) Ya, in reading my post, I was a bit long winded, so I shall post the question more directly; For our local weather conditions, am I better off mounting a Stingray Hydrofoil on my outboard to help keep the bow down, or, should I buy a Doel-fin, or am I going to just put a superfulous accessory on my boat that will not alleviate the situation. I would rather find out second hand first, before I drill any holes in my cavitation plate. Thanks again.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 05-25-2004 08:31 PM ET (US) Some people seem to love the fins, but I figure that if it really worked, it's cheap, and Merc, Bombardier, etc, would factory install it. Chuck
radiokid	posted 05-25-2004 08:40 PM ET (US) I am a local and have spent more than a few days battling the chop to get from here to there mostly Bodega area. Your question hints at all aspects of hull design to provide a smooth comfortable ride in a smaller rig. I have a 15 dauntless that I put an SC 300 on primarily to get the bow down when I don't have passenger forward and for this it works well. Typically out of Bodega I have a buddy forward so The tail effect is not noticed as much. I will go out in as much as 5-6x 10 any more is too hard to control the boat direction and if lucky, landing a large fish. THis is why I think a speed control based on engine rpm's is really desireable to have because it will give you access to all those speeds between plowing and planing. Gettin a little windy there!! Al
prm1177	posted 05-25-2004 10:22 PM ET (US) I'll chime in with Chuck, here. I think a Whaler with the right prop, enough power, and an engine mouted at the right height doesn't much need a fin mounted on the anti-ventilation plate. However, I could see their value on a boat which is under powered, at the wrong engine height, or which is used heavily loaded. These are the boats likely to plane slower and need a higher speed to keep the bow down. I considered one on my OR17 (SF Bay) last year, but all my performance and ride issues were fixed by raising the engine.
Salmon Tub	posted 05-26-2004 01:15 PM ET (US) I agree with proper set-up since I used to have a light (160lbs) 40 hp on my Montauk. My passenger will normally ride on the RPS facing to stearn, and I have nothing up front to keep it down other than an anchor and cooler which is only full on the way in ;). By myself, she planes at about 17-18 mph, with a passenger, she will plane at about a mile or two more. In the conditions I described, when cruiseing at less than planeing speed, say 15 mph, the bow will climb far up the incoming wave, before she rolls on the crest, allowing the bow to fall that much farther down. If I speed her up so she planes, in those conditions, then she is like a stone skipping accross the water, which in my opinion, becomes unsafe. I would love to be able to reduce the fully planed speed down to about the 13-16 mph range.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 05-26-2004 11:28 PM ET (US) You need to trim "IN" not out to keep your bow down. A fin will force the boat down at the bow, but certainly will not make it ride smoother. I've fished these waters for over 40 years & in your case [ last friday ] you should have run out in the trough, then ran an easier tach to where you wanted to go. There's just no way your going to smooth that water out in a 17' boat because your going up & down, not straight through. I'm not a big fan of fins or whale tails because in some cases, you want your bow to ride light & the tail wont allow you to run at that crucial point just before she breaks loose. I don't understand why your running trimmed way back???? By trimming way out your going to be looking at the sky on every wave. Heading straight into anything 3' or better is going to break your back in a 17' boat,....try quartering the waves & you will have a far better ride. As far as Pt Bonita, that piece of water at the first opf the incoming & a south or south west breeze is the 2nd most dangeous stretch of water on the west coast, so take it for what it's worth & idle through it . You better respect Pt Bonita big time because it will eat you alive before you even know it. You can't always run at the speed you would like to & nothing can help that unless you get a 50' off shore racer. Sal
Salmon Tub	posted 05-27-2004 12:14 PM ET (US) Thanks Sal, I was hoping to hear from you, but, I was trimmed all the way in/down that day, that is why I was thinking of adding the fin, since even that was not enough to keep the bow down. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have been running the Sausalito to Duxbery lap for 4 years now, and am relatively familiar with Pt. Bonita and her fickle summertime ways. You need not worry, I have no intention of neither tempting nor challenging her in any way. The Waves at Pt. Bonita are often compressed and as you said, you need to be off plain in order for the boat to have the right attitude to plow through them. That was the next question, with a fin, will I still be able to trim the motor out/up enough so as to get that attitude? I would hate to add the fin to be happy out on the open ocean, only to find that I can no longer safely negotiate Pt. Bonita. J
prm1177	posted 05-27-2004 02:05 PM ET (US) I believe 4 x 14 would indicate a swell condition (not a wave).
radiokid	posted 05-27-2004 06:40 PM ET (US) One point I would like to make about the fin on the cavitation plate is that it only enhances the effect of the motor trim angle on the hull attitude. At level trim it has no effect at all except to maybe scrub off a little speed. When the motor is trimmed all the way in a fin will add a little more leverage to keep the hull down. The effect of the fin is not startling by any means but it is noticeable especially if your boat is stern heavy to begin with. I haven't regretted putting the fin on for 6-7 years now because the more of the "V" I can put into that chop the less change in altitude I will experience which for me means going faster before losing any fillings. Al
Sal DiMercurio	posted 05-27-2004 09:30 PM ET (US) Tub, a fin will allow you to stay on plane at a lower speed & you will pop right up when coming out of the hole. You really wont notice much of a difference in the the way the boat handles [ provided your engine is mounted high enough ]. If the engine isn't mounted high enough, the fin will still be under water when on plane & if you try & trim out, the front of the fin will create a drag. It's very important to be sure the fin is free from the water while on plane or the water just flowing "UNDER " the plate, not over it. It will push your bow down right now when you give her throttle. By the way, I've been litterally slaughtering the salmon out of Half Moon Bay, 3 limits in less than an hour last sunday. Went to the islands with Bob Franco last tuesday & 8 fish to 28 lbs, but 27 miles will wear you out a bit. I'm going this Sat, Sun, & Mon. I'm on ch 19 on the vhf, it's the coast side fishing club channel. Sal
Salmon Tub	posted 05-27-2004 11:13 PM ET (US) Ya, ya, ya, I know, I've been reading your reports on CS. I can only sit at the office and read the reports. I haven't had a decent salmon year, numbers wise, since I finished school. Luckily, I was on the eight year plan ;). Giving myself the handle of Salmon Tub here was the last straw me thinks, just bad karma. You know how it is, all the good stuff happens Tue. through Thurs. We used to hammer them out of HMB all the time. Have a 14' Klammath I used to go out in and fish within 1/2 hour run from shore all the time. Drifted the bouys or off Martins beach all day long and eventually scratched a limit or two. Her name is the Looney Tune. Still have to name the Whaler. But, enough of the woes me... I am curious about your post, according to the Stingray site, they say you want water above and below. When you say push the bow right now, do you mean if the motor is mounted too low, motored is trimmed way in with the fin, or in general? I raised the motor last year, and am borderline chronic blowout in stacked slop so I would hesitate to raise it even more.
radiokid	posted 05-28-2004 02:28 AM ET (US) I think in essence the theory behind the anti cavitation plate is to act like a shroud above the prop to hold water around the prop so it does not "blow out" or cavitate while manuevering. Hole shots and tight turns all have the effect of reducing that necessary area of good water that the prop needs to perform. Adding a whale tail greatly increases the area of good water available to the prop and allows a larger window of control than without. I suspect though that your hull is the major player here. I was under the impression that the Montauk hull design was tailored towards a stable fishing platform (read flatter) as opposed to an Outrage hull that performs well slicing and dicing. If so there may be a practical limit to how fast you can ever expect to go regardless of add-ons. Al
jimh	posted 05-28-2004 09:47 AM ET (US) [Thanks to Chuck and Tony for interpretation of some unusual nomenclature, now incorporated in the text.--jimh.]