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Author Topic:   Pounding in rough water
Lopaka posted 06-21-2004 07:57 AM ET (US)   Profile for Lopaka   Send Email to Lopaka  
Anyone have any suggestions as to how I could reduce the pounding when the surface is rough? I have a 22' Law enforcement Outrage. Trimming does not seem to help as she pounds hard in almost anything above flat calm. Thanks in advance.
jimh posted 06-21-2004 08:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Reduce speed.
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-21-2004 09:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Besides slowing down, trimming & changing the entry of the angle your taking the waves is about the only way I know of.
Sal
Peter posted 06-21-2004 09:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Trim tabs to change port/starboard trim to get the boat to stop banging on the chines when in anything other than head seas.
Plotman posted 06-21-2004 09:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
Check your engine mounting height - sounds like you may be mounted too low...
Buckda posted 06-21-2004 01:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Agree with Sal and JimH.

I was out in Northern Lake Huron on Saturday with 4 people aboard my 1986 18' Outrage. Steady true 4 footers (boy, my perspective on waves has changed since the 15' Sport!).

We spent about an hour running through the waves as I tried to dial it in as best I could, and was getting to know the boat (it's new to me). Taking the waves at an angle is the best way to smooth out the pounding...she'll still leap through the waves, but he jarring landings will be minimized...I had to "tack" through the seas like this to get back, burning lots of fuel and oil, and working the throttle, but maintaining plane.

Dave

LHG posted 06-21-2004 02:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Setting the engine(s) back 10-12" on brackets, and using a good bow lifting prop like a Merc Laser II, 4 bladed Offshore or OMC Raker will GREATLY increase ride into a head sea.

Twin engines, which translates to more stern weight, also improves ride.

I use all three of these features on my 18 Outrage, and it rides almost as well as my 25 Outrage, and better than any other 18 Outrage I have been in.

divefan posted 06-21-2004 03:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for divefan  Send Email to divefan     
Yes, I would suggest buying a 54 Bertram or a 45 Hatteras. Either boat will reduce the pounding considerably. Weight and entry reduce pounding.

Hey, it's a small boat. Pounding is just one of the things we have to deal with. I can say that the foam filled hull on a Whaler pounds considerably less than any other boat in it's class I have ever been on. Even my 31' Contender sounded hollow when hitting head seas. My 2004 17' Montauk sounds solid as a rock when hitting head seas straight on.

macfam posted 06-22-2004 08:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for macfam  Send Email to macfam     
Lopaka,
With my 25' Revenge Walk-thru, with a single 250, and trim tabs, I find that when in 2-3 ft steep chop, or even up to 4 ft, I need to run 25 knots or under.
While heading into waves, I trim bow down(using tabs)to take advantage of the sharp bow entry to slice through them.
While in a following sea, I trim a bit more bow up(using engine trim), to help lift over waves and prevent any bow steer tendency.

When you mention "trim", do you have trim tabs, or are you trimming the engine only?
On my Revenge, the trim tabs make a HUGE difference.

Barry posted 06-22-2004 10:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
Lopaka, what kind of engines, how are they mounted, what size fuel tank do you have, how fast are you running, and how is your boat trimmed?

I have a 22' Outrage with Whaler Drive, twin 150s, and the 129 gallon fuel tank. About the only time my boat pounds is when I'm headed directly into the waves. Due to all the weight in the stern the boat rides with somewhat of a bow- high attitude. Once I hit around 30 mph the boat really levels out and the bow drops. Below that speed it is difficult to get the bow down. That is in spite of the Whaler Drive, adding "fins" to both lower units, and keeping the engines trimmed in. Shifting weight (usually people) forward helps.

Hoosier posted 06-22-2004 01:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
Buckda: Were on Northern Lake Huron? I was UP this weekend and there were gale warnings up the whole time. Even Raber Bay had impressive whitecaps.
Buckda posted 06-22-2004 02:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
I was camping with 4 high school buddies on Government Island in the Les Cheneaux Islands. There were small whitecaps even in the channels and on all bays. The boat was anchored near the Yacht Entrance in Scammon's Harbor (utilizing a "haul out" trick learned here on the site - worked great!).

I encountered the waves on a short run from Port Dolomite to the Surveyor's Reef lighthouse.

After speaking to LHG last night about it, I can say that I should upgrade the wave height by about 3 feet. I'm 5'8", and when in the trough of a wave, I had to look up at the top of an oncoming wave...truth be told, they were probably more like 6 to 8 footers.

We shipped water twice over the bow (4 guys aboard, me at the helm, two behind the leaning post and one on the cooler seat in front of the console). And the prop ventilated often.

The seas were rolling right out of the straights, and it was seriously "rock and roll" time once you cleared the Les Cheneaux chain.

I must say that I was VERY impressed with the handling of the 18' Outrage in these seas. While my 15' Sport was fun and "ready" for pretty much anything, I was much more comfortable in the Outrage.

It was quite a day and the wind was hauling.

We saw a pair of big Whalers on both Saturday and Sunday, traveling together, put in at Hessel late morning on Saturday and ran out around Marquette Island (we at first thought they were islanders), and then on Sunday were spotted beached along one of the inner campsites on Government Island, and hauling out after we did at Cedarville. Michigan registrations on both boats, but one of the trucks had Illinois plates.


JayR posted 06-22-2004 05:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for JayR  Send Email to JayR     
I have said it before and will say it again....

A Doel-fin will keep the bow from slamming the next wave at slow speeds. It keeps the aft section from pulling through the top of the wave as you crest it and keeps the bow in a higher position.

It will not teeter-totter over the wave and allow the bow to slap into the next one.

Buckda posted 06-22-2004 06:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Depends on the waves.

6 to 8 footers with a 7 second interval mean that pretty much any Whaler is going to have some prop ventilation issues.

I'm still convinced that it's just a different technique with the Boston Whaler hull - JimH details this phenomenon in one of his narratives about how the architecture of the smirk requires you to take the waves at a sharper angle than if you were in a traditional "vee" hull.

The hull design will always be a bit rougher riding in sloppy chop, but you're in for a treat when you've got following seas going back into port and you track right in while others have lots of bow steer and risk broaching.

Dave

Lopaka posted 06-24-2004 04:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Lopaka  Send Email to Lopaka     
Thanks for all the information. I run a single 225 Johnson Ocean Runner and I have no trim tabs so the only trim comes from the engine or the shifting of weight within the boat. I'll keep trying out the different suggestions and advise later as to what worked best for me.....the suggestion that I buy a different hull....no can do!! Thanks much everyone.
Outrage22Cuddy posted 06-25-2004 12:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Outrage22Cuddy    
I have Sting-Ray fins on both outboards & it still pounds sometimes. The angle of hitting the waves seems to make the most difference. I just figure it's a trade-off for the dry ride. I warn new passengers & tell them to keep their knees bent & hang on. My boat has a leaning post. I think it is necessary.
JohnJ80 posted 06-27-2004 09:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
Call Lenco and Bennett and talk to their tech guys. With trim tabs you can adjust the attitude of the hull to the waves which is especially important in rough conditions. If you can use the fine entry of the bow to split waves instead of taking them on the flat portion of the hull, you will noticeably improve the ride and remove a lot of the harshness.

I have did just this and had quite a stark difference in the handling of my boat in rough conditions. It sort of feels like I got a 3-5' longer boat.

Other suggestions about raising the motor and prop selections will also help. What this means is that it is important to adjust your motor properly on the transom. This can have a big effect on the ride on the boat.

Who set your boat up for you? Was the motor mounted all the way down on the transom?

This will be a game of inches, but I would think there is considerable room for improvement - but it will take some experimentation.

J

high sierra posted 06-27-2004 10:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for high sierra  Send Email to high sierra     
Buckda, would you have taken those waves in your fifteen? high sierra
Buckda posted 06-28-2004 10:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Not by choice, but I would have pulled the plug, put my buddy on bailing duty to assist drainage and gritted my teeth if I were stuck out there in the 15. I am confident the boat could have handled it, just not as confident in my butt.

Since the 15 is more familiar to me, and I know the motor better, I would have actually felt better in the 15, because it would have taken the worry of the motor out of the equation. A recently-rebuilt 1995 motor versus an 1986 motor that spent it's life until a month ago in a salt/brackish water environment...well, you get the idea.

Biggest concerns in the 15:
- Blow over in the stiff wind after launching off a wave
- Swamping the motor and losing power after landing hard stern first
- Swamping the boat when slowing down while trying to put the anchor locker lid back on (I need to install hinges)
- Losing electrical power through a swamped/shorted battery (again, from a hard stern landing swamping the rear portion of the boat)

I am sure the 15 could do it, but we'd have been very wet (as it was, we got a tad wet in the 18...mostly feet wet, but a few times, caught spray too), and it would not have been "fun".

But hey, I'm not the crazy one...there are loonies on this site who strap 90 HP to the 15' hull, hit 50 MPH and try to figure out how to make it go faster. The 70 HP is fast enough for me, thank you!

: )


high sierra posted 06-28-2004 07:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for high sierra  Send Email to high sierra     
Buckda, Thanks for the experienced input. I,m always learning. High Sierra
timbaho posted 07-02-2004 04:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for timbaho  Send Email to timbaho     
jimh put it best "reduce speed" and if that doesn't work you turn back to the hill and wait it out.
Buckda posted 07-02-2004 04:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
I believe there is also a section of Chapman's "Piloting" that covers this topic and is worth the read.

I've been going through my copy for the last several weeks and there is a lot of invaluable information in there!

Dave

Lopaka posted 07-06-2004 03:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for Lopaka  Send Email to Lopaka     
Just in case anyone is still checking on this subject....acting on the many suggestions, I mounted a Doel-Fin and seriously began the practice of shifting scuba tank weight forward along with selecting a bow on angle that was not a straight shot into the swell. Results are an improvement....thanks to all who jumped into this question. Interestingly, while I'm a devoted BW addict, I still marvel at those Deep-V boats that fly past me seemingly to be above the chop, laughing and smiling at 25 kts when I'm struggling to do 15 but pounding like mad. I guess the big equalizer happens when each style goes dead in the Molokai Channel and what was once a boat becomes a life raft.
Plotman posted 07-06-2004 04:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
What hole are you mounted in? I mentioned this above, but if your engine is too low, you won't believe what a difference this makes until you see it for yourself.
Lopaka posted 07-08-2004 06:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Lopaka  Send Email to Lopaka     
I believe the engine is mounted as high as it could be on the transom as in looking at it there is only maybe 2 inches left.
mustang7nh posted 07-08-2004 08:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
I just installed Lenco 12x12E on my 1991 Outrage 22. All I can say is WOW! No more pounding. Granted I still have a certain degree of motion and jarring, but that spine crushing thuds are gone. The tabs really seem to keep the bow down and also stop it from popping up when hitting waves. Buy tabs, its the best 385 bucks you can spend. Don't let the install nuances resist this application.

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