Forum: WHALER
  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  E-TEC™ Loses Speed After ECM Upgrade

Post New Topic  Post Reply
search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   E-TEC™ Loses Speed After ECM Upgrade
ratherwhalering posted 07-22-2004 01:13 PM ET (US)   Profile for ratherwhalering   Send Email to ratherwhalering  
My E-TEC 90 DSLSR has a 13.25 x 17-inch stainless steel Stiletto propeller. My initial performance showed 42.5 MPH at 5500 RPM. I recently had the engine software upgraded, pursuant to a request by the manufacturer. The upgrade was stated to increase fuel efficiency and XD100 oil consumption. Since the upgrade, RPM have dropped to 5100 with a top speed of 41.0 mph. The difference in fuel efficiency and oil consumption is wonderful, but I'm now running at a mid-range RPM at WOT (manufacturer calls for 4500-5500 RPM at WOT.) I'm considering dropping down to a 13.25 x 15-inch stainless steel Stiletto propeller, or having my current propeller "tweaked" at a local prop shop. Any sugguestions?
Bigshot posted 07-22-2004 03:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I would consult the dealer and/or Bombardier.
ratherwhalering posted 07-22-2004 03:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Bombardier recommends a 13-7/8 x 17-inch Stainless Viper, part No.176623. What would that larger hub give me?
Bigshot posted 07-22-2004 03:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Nothing. What do they have to say about the drop in RPM's vs before they messed with it? Is this normal? If so did they tell you that you are gonna drop 400rpm's. If you dropped 400rpm's in my book that means you lost about 15-20hp hence why your efficiency increased.
ratherwhalering posted 07-22-2004 06:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
That's what I thought also. There may very well have been a decrease in horsepower. I will call and try to find out some more specifics. Same 17-inch propeller, and the decrease in speed and RPM sugguests that the reprogramming may have effected the power output. In the meantime, I'm going to try the 15-inch propeller and see what happens.
Bigshot posted 07-23-2004 10:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Why? You know what will happen, your engine speed will increase and your boat speed will decrease--no magic there. I would raise holy stink or have it "changed back", you want your 90-HP. If they claim it still puts out the same HP, call them on it and make them Dyno the engine, while you watch.
ratherwhalering posted 07-23-2004 01:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
I was thinking of a 15-inch prop because I would like to run the engine at maximum RPm, to prevent undue lugging at low/mid range.

I spoke with a Bombardier technical representive this morning. He told me that the software upgrade reconfigured fuel mapping, timing, and fuel stratification, whatever that is. He said it was possible that there was a resulting loss of horsepower, but it would likely manifest itself in a drop of 50 RPM, not 400 RPM. He also informed me that the engine's horsepower rating, and therefore peak horsepower output, was at 5000 RPM. He didn't think (agreed) that switching propellers was not the ultimate solution, and promised to contact the engineering department, and get back to me. About five minutes later, he called and let me know he had forwarded my serial number and performance specs, before and after the upgrade, the the engineers, and would follow through with an answer to my question. It sounds like a good start, at least.

Bigshot posted 07-23-2004 01:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
You had 5500 before they started messing around with it. 5100 won't lug and is fine but I am interested in the 400 RPM and 2-MPH drop, which is too much for a "tuneup". Keep me posted.

I know my engine in Florida runs better in the winter than in 94-degree 98% humidity. I lose about 150 RPM in the summer vs winter. The EFI compensates for stuff like that and I accept it. A loss of 400-RPM would be another story.

ratherwhalering posted 07-23-2004 02:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Will do.
Peter posted 07-23-2004 02:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I'm wondering whether you should take it back to the dealer and let them do the reprogramming again. Perhaps something didn't go right with the reprogramming?

Your engine, like all Bombardier DFI engines, runs in two charge modes, stratified and homogenius. At low RPM it runs in the stratified mode and at higher RPM it runs in a homogenious mode. The stratified mode is used for "lean" burning to improve emissions. The reprogramming probably changed the RPM setpoint where the transition from stratified to homogenious and the reverse takes place.

ratherwhalering posted 07-23-2004 02:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Hmmm. Interesting point, Peter. Here's a thought. When I went to have it reprogrammed, the upgrade for the 90HP was not available. My dealer called Bombardier, and eventually got the upgrade information. I wonder if the dealer re-programmed it, but did so for a 75hp upgrade? That coincides with Nick's estimate of a 15-20 HP decline. I'll call my dealer and request the upgrade information, then ask Bombardier if this was the correct upgrade. I doubt this, as the mechanic is very competent, and a good guy to boot, but hey, could be a mistake.
Bigshot posted 07-23-2004 02:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
That's what it sounds like. Stinks that they charge more for a 90 when it is just a 75 with a different program. I wonder if you could buy the 75 and reprogram it to be a 90 or 115hp and save a grand or so....hummm. The only difference between my 70 and the 60 is the ECM or basically the program inside it.
ratherwhalering posted 07-23-2004 02:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Looks like it, bore and stroke are identical for both models:

3.600 x 2.588 (91 x 66) 79 (1295)

ratherwhalering posted 07-23-2004 02:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Cost difference was $500.00. Wouldn't that be a kick, buy a 75hp and have the dealer kick it up to 90hp.
ratherwhalering posted 07-23-2004 03:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Just got off the phone with the rep. Engineering department said there should be no change in RPM, and they are puzzled why there was a drop in max RPM. They asked me to take it to the dealer to get the program number (PGM) from the EMM to verify that the correct upgrade was installed. On a side note, the rep reluctantly agreed that the 75 and 90 are the same engine block, but alluded to something about exhaust housing and throttle body differences.
jimh posted 07-24-2004 10:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
On many modern engines there is no mechanical difference between models with different horsepower ratings. The software loaded into the engine control module (ECM) makes all the difference. In the case of the Honda V-TEC engine, they make two models which are mechanically identical. Each has the complex variable valve timing, but on the lower horsepower model they don't enable it! Imagine lugging around all the weight an complexity of an extra set of valves and cam lobes which is never used! All it takes is a slightly different software load into the ECM and they raise the price by hundred, perhaps thousands, of dollars.
dyeomans posted 07-25-2004 12:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for dyeomans  Send Email to dyeomans     
I have a 2005 90-HP E-TEC™ on my 1990 Montauk 17. The 17-inch prop will deliver 5100 RPM. I do not know my speed. I have the same jackplate as ratherwhaling.
jimh posted 07-26-2004 05:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Changed TOPIC; was "E-TEC™ 90-HP Propeller"]
Budysr posted 07-26-2004 02:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Budysr  Send Email to Budysr     
I have a 90 Etec too and I am wondering about this update. I'm scared to do it now if its gonna cause a performance loss. You shouldn't have to change to a 15pitch prop to get peak rpms. My rig has a 19pitch and if I have a light load, I can trim to 5500 but with a moderate load I can only trim to 51, maybe 5200. My engine is on a 17ft KW though so not sure about the weight diff. between that and the whaler. Hope you guys don't mind me posting on this forum as I enjoy the insightful postings here.
Budysr posted 07-26-2004 02:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Budysr  Send Email to Budysr     
I have a 90 Etec too and I am wondering about this update. I'm scared to do it now if its gonna cause a performance loss. You shouldn't have to change to a 15pitch prop to get peak rpms. My rig has a 19pitch and if I have a light load, I can trim to 5500 but with a moderate load I can only trim to 51, maybe 5200. My engine is on a 17ft KW though so not sure about the weight diff. between that and the whaler. Hope you guys don't mind me posting on this forum as I enjoy the insightful postings here.
ratherwhalering posted 08-02-2004 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Just an update, I forwarded my PGM numbers from the ECM and am waiting for a response from Bombardier. In the meantime, I ran a 3.25 x 15-inch stainless propeller this weekend, and noticed several things. First, the vibration that occurs around 900-1100 RPM was 'less', and was only in the 900-1000 range. Second, I saw 42.5 MPH at 5500 RPM (WAY trimmed up and the boat was pretty unstable.) Better hole shot, but the bow rise, when going to plane, was a little higher than with the 17-inch propeller. Overall, I liked the performance of the 15-inch propeller better, but some of this may be psychological because I was a little disappointed with the lower RPM I was experiencing with the 17-inch.
Peter posted 08-02-2004 12:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I think Jimh is going to have to reedit the title back to the original title here because now the E-TEC hasn't lost speed and it is about the propeller the 90 E-TEC is twisting after the remap.

What doesn't make any sense to me, however, is that you are achieving the same top speed with the same WOT RPM with a different pitch propeller, at least nominally so. Calculated slip is -9 percent.

ratherwhalering posted 08-02-2004 02:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
I do not understand it either, however I had a light fuel load, and no passengers. I'll bet the maximum RPM and MPH are less when I do another performance test, with a load similar to the one I had when I got the engine.
Peter posted 08-02-2004 03:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Are you checking speed with a GPS? If so, are you checking the speed in two opposite directions so as to take into account any currents?
ratherwhalering posted 08-02-2004 04:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for ratherwhalering  Send Email to ratherwhalering     
Yes, I have been using a Garmin 168(i), using both directions, and averaging. (ie. 43MPH and 42MPH) Flat water, behind Angel Island. The only other variable I can think of is my tachometer, which was originally giving me some sporatic readings, so I replaced a few months ago with an OMC System Matched one, before I noticed a drop in RPM readings. I checked the new tach after I installed it, and was hitting appropriate RPM, though. The only other tweak was the remapping, so I'm assuming it was that procedure. It did take a few weeks after reprogramming for me to hit wide open throttle.
dyeomans posted 08-15-2004 04:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for dyeomans  Send Email to dyeomans     
I have the gps installed now. Germin 72. Auto and gps speed are the same. I have the same engine as ratherwhaling. Engine was run today to establish propeller needs. I have a 1990 Montauk, Cooks jake plate. Anti C Plate is 1.2 inches above the transom st the keel. This is my third time in the water with the new engine. The engine as indeed awsome. The boat handles great as it always did.
Load today was self, 280, 15 gallons of gas, one 24 group battery in back starbord of boat. The engine is smooth thur strottle range. 15 in new SST prop. Proformance:

1200 rpm smooth
2100 rpm plowing and rough running
3400 rpm 24.5 mph
3800 rpm 26 mph
4075 rpm 30 mph
4200 rpm 32 mph

dyeomans posted 08-15-2004 04:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for dyeomans  Send Email to dyeomans     
sorry hit the wrong key!
5050 rpm 36 mph ---- this all I can go.
A 17 SST Prop will only turn 4950. I think is is the tach, but I am not seeing the speed that ratherwhaling is. I have no problem with a crusing speed of 31 mph, 4150 rpms.
Dealer has a call in for Evinrude Rep. If the prop was changed I don't think any thing less than a 15" is appropriate. Any ideas? The height of the engine feels good.

Budysr posted 08-17-2004 09:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Budysr  Send Email to Budysr     
Dyeomans, sounds to me like your tach is off. You should have more Rpms than that. How heavy is your boat? I think you guys could get more out of your 90's with a 19pitch viper 13x7/8 dia. This is what I have on my 17 KW. Different brand of props can make a big diff. As I understand it, the Etecs gear ratio allows to turn the larger diameter prop which is gonna "push" more water as we all know. You should at least be able to top 40mph with that engine. Good Luck

Post New Topic  Post Reply
Hop to:


Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.