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Author Topic:   Engine Choices for Outrage 25' w/standard transom
hooter posted 08-03-2004 01:06 PM ET (US)   Profile for hooter  
In a related thread, sev'ral posters have voiced their decisions to repower this hull with a 250 h.p. motor. Ah'm curious if anyone has considered and rejected Yamaha's 300 h.p. HPDI 2-cycle motor when lookin' to repow'r an Outrage 25' with the standard notched transom. What reasons lead them to reject the big Yamaha, when it would appear to offer greater fuel economy, longer engine life and greater top speed when required?
Sal DiMercurio posted 08-03-2004 02:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Hoot, I would think the cost of 1 single engine at 300 hp would be equal to a pair of 150s.
The 150s would work less & the fuel savings could be substantial.
Plus I know the Merc engines [ not certain on Yamahas ] in that hp [ 300 hp ] require 92 octane fuel & here in Calif the 92 octane Chevron runs $2.45 per gallon at the gas station & I doubt it's available in any marina.
The 300 hp engines will only produce approx. 260 hp on lower octane [ I just read that in the recent Bass & Walleye magazine ].
LHG posted 08-03-2004 03:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
The other thing that I have suspected is that an engine like the 300 Yamaha is really stretched out of a 250 HPDI. Using that famous 10% HP rule, I'd bet it's not putting out a true 300, and we're dealing with marketing strategy against the new Verados. From everything I've read, it just about runs with a Merc 275 Verado, which also tends to confirm this hunch. I agree with Sal that a good pair of 150's would walk away from it.
macfam posted 08-03-2004 04:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for macfam  Send Email to macfam     
I think you've raised a valid question.
I would consider it, although, for my purposes a 250 is fine.
Currently have a 1999 Yamaha 250hp OX66.
Where I use my 25 is usually very choppy, and 4000 rpm, 26-28 mph is all the old body can take!!
I would like to see the stats on speed, cost and economy (mpg) of operation with the single 300 HPDI, vs two 150 HPDI's.
One slight draw back to the 250/300 series.
They don't always run on all six cylinders (by design), so you can experience some slight roughness at around 1000-1200 rpm. If you do a lot of trolling or extended idle speed "harbor exploration", you might consider a 4-stroke (Verado)(Yammie 250 4-stroke) or other choice.
Today, there are fantastic choices from almost every manufacturer.
All ya need is $$$$$$$
Plotman posted 08-03-2004 05:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
Look at the performance data on the whaler website for hw Outrage 240 - comparing the fuel economy of a large single (225 Optimax) against a pair of 150s. The twins gave a substantial benefit in mileage.


raydent99 posted 08-03-2004 09:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for raydent99  Send Email to raydent99     
I searched high and low on the web for any bad reports on either the high hp Yamaha HPDI's and the Suzuki 250. I found ZERO negative reports about the Suzuki. ZERO! I found dozens and dozens of negative reports about the HPDI's (fouling plugs, excess oil burn, blown powerheads, etc). Supposedly, the HPDI's have needed 4 or 5 computer updates just to keep them from fouling plugs or self-destructing. I also followed a thread pretty closely about a local very-well-known charter captain that had nothing but trouble with his Yamaha 225 HPDI Vmax. Apparently, Yamaha was giving him trouble with the warranty claims as well. It wasn't until he went public with the story that Yamaha made good on the engine. However, the thread disappeared soon after the settlement. I don't know if that was part of the deal they worked out with the captain...or if the fishing forum that he posted the report to caved to the demands of one of its main advertisers (Yamaha). Either way, that made me even more leary.

Nevertheless, that was all I needed to convince me that I would *NOT* look at the HPDI's. You have to wonder if the direct injection idea itself is bad...or if the designs were rushed to market. Merc had loads of problems early on with its Optimax's...which are apparently fixed. Evinrude went out of business because of problems with its Fichts. That's supposedly fixed now too. And Yamaha has had to issue 4 or 5 technical service updates just to keep the big HPDI's running. That's a pretty poor but consistent track record across a line of three different manufacturers.

I went with a Suzuki 250 4-stroke on the heavier Outrage 25' Cuddy. I don't have it dialed in properly yet with the correct prop or engine height, but the motor has been wonderful. You can see my performance numbers at the thread entitled "Performance numbers for Outrage 25' Cuddy with Suzuki 250" under the Performance section. Keep in mind, that the motor should run to 6100 RPM, and I'm only seeing about 5700 with the motor trimmed pretty far out. Also keep in mind that the standard outrage 25 is lighter, better balanced fore/aft, and has less wind resistance. I'd suspect that you'd see 45 mph at WOT. I can't tell you what the specific fuel economy is yet, but if I go off of the gauge, I've used 1/4 tank (about 35-40 gallons) and have gone about 120+ miles. I doubt you're going to do much better with twin 150's or a single 300.

SSCH posted 08-03-2004 09:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for SSCH  Send Email to SSCH     

For what its worth, several guides down here in West Bay (Galveston, Texas) are running a single 250 on 25 Outrages. If they thought they needed more power they would surely have it. They are using either Mercs or Yamaha depending on who gives them the best deal.

I have a pair of Yamaha 200 HPDIs on my boat and have had no significant problems since installation in late 2000.

(Knock on wood)

Royce posted 08-03-2004 10:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Royce  Send Email to Royce     
Hooter- I have a 1985 Outrage Cuddy 25 with twin 1999 Merc. 150 EFI's on a standard transom with 7" setback jackplates. The boat handles great at all speeds and I think the twins strongly contribute to the boats fantastic stability in "washing machine" conditions like we encounter in the area around the Golden Gate bridge. Sunday I was coming back through 6-8 ft. mixed lumps(very erratic) and the boat stayed very level with no bow steer with a following sea. My experience with large single engines is that they don't give you the side to side stability of twins. The EFI's are not as efficient as the new Optimax--but they are bullet proof as far as quick starts and reliability. The 150's also don't have the rough spot(between 1200-1800 RPM) that you experience with the 225's and higher HP. I installed a new Yamaha 200 hpdi on a 1996 Outrage 20 and had very good luck with its performance-I still prefer the twins when in the ocean. Good luck!

hooter posted 08-04-2004 11:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Thanks, Gen'amen. I'd pretty much figured the twin 150s was the way to go, but wondered why those that go for a single engine didn't go to the max 300 h.p. f'which the hull was designed and rated. Sounds like the bigger 2-cycles (over 250 h.p.) have been a disaperntment f' many. As most o' ya'll do on occasion, we been contemplatin' another addition to the fam'bly, here:-!

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