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Author Topic:   18' Outrage Repower Quandry
Buckda posted 08-23-2004 02:27 PM ET (US)   Profile for Buckda   Send Email to Buckda  
Gentlemen –

After much haranguing by fellow Whaler enthusiasts last weekend about my “smokey motor,” and after seeing photos from the Georgian Bay rendezvous where smoke from my motor was ever present, I am not much more seriously considering repowering my 1986 18’ Outrage. I was planning to put this off for a year or two, but there is also nagging doubt in the back of my mind that tells me that I want a propulsion package that I can trust, and have a good idea on the maintenance history and repair background.

First, let me give you some background on how the boat is and will continue to be used-

The majority of my trips (read, most frequently) it will be used on Lake Michigan, not far from shore but venturing 40 to 60 miles each way to neighboring towns and ports, with the occasional trans-lake passage.
Less frequently, but logging the most hours will be trips like the recent Georgian Bay trip – Likely in remote Canadian waters to wilderness/camping type destinations.

I have several questions, each more complex than the last….

In your opinion:

1. What is the trade-in value that I might receive for a 150 HP Mercury Black Max motor that is fully functional (I just logged more than 700 miles in the past three weeks on this motor.)?
2. Using Ed’s Marine Superstore as a reference for pricing, what “premium” should I expect to pay for a similar motor fully rigged with full instrumentation? (I am assuming that the prices listed on Ed’s are only motor, and do not include rigging and instrumentation).

I am giving serious consideration to repowering with twin 90 HP motors on 8 to 10 inch set back brackets. I realize that this adds complexity to the operation and maintenance of the boat, but I do like it for the redundancy and safety margin (I’m unlikely to use a kicker except in an emergency…if I’m going to pay for a second engine, I want to be using it!).

What are your thoughts on:

1. The ramifications of overpowering this hull 180 HP with two motors versus 150 HP with a single motor…I’m thinking the power/weight ratio will cancel out any really dangerous differences, and may even reduce my top speed, however my motors will last longer because they won’t be working as hard…am I crazy here? For those of you who have high-powered boats (aka – overpowered), what have your experiences been with Coasties, local authorities, etc? Keep in mind that I generally mind my manners and am not too much of a hotrod.
2. The difference in motor cost is about $1,500…but how much more expensive would the rigging be? Double the cost of rigging a single, or are cost savings realized?
3. How much can I expect to pay to have the transom patched where the old motor mount was?

That’s it…simple problem, eh?! I’m not in a huge hurry to do this, but may be seriously considering it early next year or maybe late next year; depending…

Thanks for your thoughtful consideration and responses.

Note: Only Mercury power will be considered – 2-stroke or 4-stroke will be determined by pricing and/or weight considerations (twin 4 strokes might be a bit much!).



bkoelbel posted 08-23-2004 02:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for bkoelbel  Send Email to bkoelbel     
Buckda -

Went thru the same 'mental debates' re my 1986 20' Outrage last winter, and I have been DELIGHTED with my 2004 Merc Optimax, replacing a 1987 Johnson 175.

Happy to share details if you'd like........

Plotman posted 08-23-2004 03:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     

What do Larry G's engines weigh on his 18 - that will give you a comparison to the weights of the modern offerings - 303 lbs each for the classic mercs and 261 lbs for the Yamaha 2 stokes. It also makes sense for you to get some sand bags and throw them in the motor well and see how the boat sits with 600 lbs on the transom.

If you go with a single, I would think you would want to lean strongly to a 2-strok merc EFI - I have one from 1996 and it is an absolutely bulletproof engine. It would also be the easiest for you to mount - I would think you could order one from Ed's and just bolt it on.

I got stopped by the coasties last week in my overpowered Outrage 22. They said they stopped me because my boat looked cool, but they also checked my safety gear, etc. They did not look at the capacity plate on the boat. I have also yet to hear of anyone getting a question from any law-enforecment types about the HP capacities on any boat.


Buckda posted 08-23-2004 03:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Well - here's my thinking.

Assuming the new 150 HP Verado will be based on the 200 HP block, I can expect roughly 650 LBS to go with a 4 stroke single.

If I want to stay with 2 stroke (likely), a 150 HP Optimax is roughly 430 lbs and twin 90's (Optimax) will be 750 LBS...I'd probably have to go with the classic 90 Carbed - at 610 lbs for two (Saltwater series V-6 Classic 90 HP).

So my real options (assuming Verado comes out this spring with a 150) are (in order of expense):
1. Verado 150 HP - 650 lbs dry and $????
2. Two Classic 90 HP (20" shaft for twin application)motors from Ed's is about $10,200.
3. 150 HP Optimax - 430 lbs Dry and $9,799.00

I'm wildly guessing to add about 1,000 for rigging, install and guages per motor (exception: Verado, which I suspect will cost more.

Also - will my current hydraulic steering system handle twins, or do I have to have a "twin" system? If so, I'll need to account for that, too.

I'm thinking that the twins option will run me about 14,000, and the single option (Optimax) will run about 12,000 all said and done. Thoughts?

Buckda posted 08-23-2004 04:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Also -

I've been on T/T Whale Lure (18' Outrage with twin 115's), and believe that the boat, when fully loaded with gear, has an acceptable ride, althought I do realize that it will produce a slightly "Bow-high" attitude (this, with about 630 pounds of motor on a setback bracket, and batteries in the splashwell - I believe those classic 115's (1986 edition) weigh about 315 each).

My boat has the batteries in the console, which I hope might account for the differences in weight to provide a very similar ride...

I would think that the twin 90's probably produce about the same ride characteristics with a slightly lower top-end (Somewhere north of 55 MPH for that boat)...but I hope to gain the lower RPM planing speeds, slower idle (on one motor) and increased engine life with this setup; in addition to the comfort that comes from having twin motors running back there, increasing the odds that you will exit the wilderness intact. That's my thinking on the twins...I would guess they would last at least 25 more years on the boat, while the single 150 would probably provide 18 to 20 years of service.

Hmm...I'm thinking "Boat show special" here... January?


hooter posted 08-23-2004 04:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
It ain't rocket science, but hooter's rule still applies: within' the Coast Guard maximum horsepower rating for any Whaler hull, the highest available horsepower per pound of engine weight will correlate to the horsepower per dollar paid as well as to the satisfaction per re-power decision ratio. Get you a new 2-cycle 150, carbed, EFI or DFI; just follow the rule. If smoke bothers your crew, just tell 'em to "never look back". Good luck:-!
newt posted 08-23-2004 04:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for newt  Send Email to newt     

Don't know if it effects your decision, but the Mercury 90 hp classics are only 3 cyl. Great motor, but they do idle like a Harley!

Mumbo Jumbo posted 08-23-2004 07:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mumbo Jumbo  Send Email to Mumbo Jumbo     
Hooter is right on. Perhaps get a Yamaha 150 two stroke. It is, perhaps, one of the best engines around for the 18 Outrage. Not EFI, not DI, but a carbed two stroke. How much gas and how many adjustments will you have to buy to justify a four stroke which weighs a ton? Many of the four stroke engines made today should be used only as boat anchors.
Buckda posted 08-23-2004 07:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
I think we can agree that a four stroke motor is not really in the equation. Price and weight-to-power ratio cause that to be so. Therefore, you can understand my urgency, since the simple two-stroke carbed motors are likely to be more difficult to acquire after next summer.

I think I'm really leaning now to the 150 Optimax with SmartCraft guages - but I still have this nagging thought about getting twin 90's despite the complexity and cost....

bkovak posted 08-23-2004 09:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for bkovak  Send Email to bkovak     
I have a Yamaha 150 2 stroke on my 86 Outrage 18 and love it! Great performance, very dependable and not bad on gas for normal cruising. Hits 47 mph WOT on flat water and loves the waves... Brian
jimh posted 08-23-2004 10:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     

Your 150-HP Mercury 2-liter outboard is probably worth more to you on the transom than as a trade in. It seemed to be running strong last week on our grand trip!

The low-water mark on pricing for a 150-HP 2-stroke looks like the Yamaha 150-HP 2-stroke at about $6,800. Also look around for a past-current but new Suzuki. Dealers with 2-stroke Suzuki engines are selling them at big discounts as they have gone to an all-four-stroke lineup.

kamie posted 08-23-2004 11:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for kamie  Send Email to kamie     

keep that 150 until it drops and then repower. If you really want twins then the classic 90HP is the only way to go given the weight. If you do decide on the twins keep me posted on how it goes. I am facing that decision as well (twin 90's on brackets would be sweet) but think I will stick with my 150 until she drops and then probably go with the 150HP Opti since the weight/price of the Verado's seems a bit high. I must say they are a lot quieter, just purring along.

andygere posted 08-24-2004 02:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Dave, what about a pair of E-Tech 90's? 305 lbs, low emissions and fuel injection. I have no idea about pricing, but hey, it's not my money anyway. For what it's worth, my '89 Black Max 200 has been super reliable, starts and runs great every time and has never let me down. It will be a sad day when I finally have to shop for a new motor or motors.
Peter posted 08-24-2004 08:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I'm with Hooter, JimH and Kamie on this one. Keep the Merc on the transom until it dies. It has far more value to you that way than it does in a trade in. Then when it does die, put a new 150 of whatever brand and technology you like.

Unless you are a frequent offshore traveler (25 to 50 miles from the sight of land) or the Outrage is a tender to a large ocean going motor yacht, I think twin engines on an Outrage 18 is overkill. Thus, I'd leave it as a single.

The Verado 150 won't weigh 650 lbs. If its built on the 1.7 liter block as has been suggested here, my guess is its dry weight will be in the 500 to 550 lb range (375 lb base + 125 to 150 lbs of Verado stuff). In all likelihood, it will still be the heaviest 150 HP outboard ever produced and won't perform any better than a clean 2-stroke 150. If you wait another couple of years before you repower, you will have more clean repower options (Verado, Optimax, E-TEC, Yamaha F and HPDI, Honda, Suzuki/Johnson) but you will have no smokey and cheaper repower options. If you plan on keeping the boat for a good while and use it more than 50 hours per season, spend the extra cash on a clean motor for the 18 Outrage. Besides no smoke, it will extend the range of your current fuel tank.

If you go twins, several possibilities pop up in the smokey category: Classic Merc 75s or 90s (same 1.4 L block) or Yamaha 90 (1.1 L displacement). Larry may find this hard to believe, but I would pick the Classic Mercs over the Yamaha even though I believe the Yamaha 90 is a fine engine. Reason: I'd rather have the extra displacement of the Mercs rather than the lighter weight of the Yamaha 90s in the twin situation. Additional displacement will come in handy if one engine fails. It is likely that the range of your fuel tank will be reduced somewhat by the smokey twins.

In the clean category, it seems that E-TEC 75 or 90 or Tohatsu 70 or 90 are the only engines that will work in this application. All the 4-strokes are too heavy. Fuel tank range with clean twins might be the same as what you have now.

Backlash posted 08-24-2004 08:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for Backlash  Send Email to Backlash     

I'm with the "run that Black Max until it drops group". As evidenced on the Georgian Bay trip it runs very strong and parts are available virtually anywhere! IMO a single 150 is the ideal powerplant for this hull.


kingfish posted 08-24-2004 09:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     

I concur with the respected majority - and with Steve in particular in that I also believe a 150 HP single is the right power for an Outrage 18. Start another jar to throw spare shekels into as you can for the future re-power, and in the meantime chase down the various items and systems that may need attention (fuel lines and connections come to my mind pretty early on). A little smoke never hurt anyone. If the embarassment of firing up the bug bomb early in the morning in the pristine air of a northern Michigan or Canadian marina and leaving a trail as you motor out of the harbor is too much for you, let me tell you about my Yamaha T8 kicker...


Buckda posted 08-24-2004 10:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
It's not so much the embarassment of a smokey motor as it is my concern of being "dead in the water" out there in the middle of nowhere.

I agree...the motor has run like a champ this year and I have no particular complaints, really - other than the nagging concern in the back of my mind of going long distances with a 18 year old motor that until this spring was run in brackish/salt water and I do not have extensive knowledge of maintenance and repair history (since I've only owned the boat for a few months).

I agree that it is probably worth more to me back there than to anyone else; after all, it's an 18 year old motor!

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and insights. I guess I'm still in a quandry as to what to do, but fortunately (for this situation) the season is almost over and I will have about three months to think about what I want to do!

Re: rigging for twins - would my existing hydraulic steering system be able to operate twins, or would I need to re-rig with a new system there as well?

Andy - I did consider the E-Tecs, but briefly, the cost is significantly higher (about $1,700 more) than the 2-stroke, however the weight IS the same/similar.

I have to run...more thoughts later...

Peter posted 08-24-2004 11:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Your existing hydraulic system, if in good shape, could work assuming there is clearance. All you really need to steer the other motor with is a tie bar connected between the steering arms of each motor or a tie bar attached between the steering arm of the other motor and the hydraulic system itself (they seem to prefer to do it that way now).
mfrymier posted 08-24-2004 11:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for mfrymier  Send Email to mfrymier     
I know the cost is a bit more...but talk to someone who has an ETEC before you decide -- initial reports are EXTREMELY positive, with 2 stroke power and throttle response combined with 4 stroke quiet operation and mileage...Sounds like you use your boat a great deal -- that mileage will be helpful over time! (especially w/gas prices climbing ever higher).
striper swiper posted 08-24-2004 11:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for striper swiper    
Buckda,If was me ,I would buy a johnson hp150 w ss/prop.I don"t know if it would be a 4 stroke over a 2 stroke; I did"nt research it. I would buy new and cheap (inexpensive). The most inexpensive way to go.IE:weight vs cost,could be a factor. but remember the boat is old an 04 motor to a new buyer( when you decide to sell) is a plus ,they don"t care if its 2 stroke or 4 stroke,they look at the year..The money you may save buying either the 2 over the 4 whichever is cheaper ,buys gas etc....Unless you married your boat.You best man.striper
rtk posted 08-24-2004 11:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
I found that the best deals were available January through April. All of the manufacturers this year were offering extended warranties and/or rebates at that time.

I found a non-current (leftover) motor in March at a great price and received a two year extended warranty and a $600 rigging credit from Mercury. My dealer also sold my motor for me at close to retail value as opposed to taking it on trade at wholesale. I couldn't pass up the deal.

I told my Mercury dealer which motors I was interested in. Mercury sends their dealers a non-current motor availability list. The deals are sporadic- he never knew what was going to show up on the list. I guess it depends on Mercury inventory. They go fast so if one becomes available you have to act quick.

The dealer called me when he found the motor I wanted and I had to commit to the motor at that time. It is a waiting game- there is a chance the motor you want at the price you want may not become available. I wasn't in a position where I had to buy- the motor that was on the boat ran strong so I was in no rush. If the deal didn't appear I would have kept my exisitng motor and shopped next year.

I would think the other manufacturers have the same deals.

Good luck with your decision, there are alot of great motors out there.


LHG posted 08-24-2004 09:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Well now all of you guys have made me feel bad.
hooter posted 08-25-2004 01:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Larry, we were talkin' street LEGAL, here. As Ah recall, that rocket 18' you drive boasts somethin' like a pair o' Mercury 115's, doesn't it? If he throws out the part o' mah opener that says, "...within' the Coast Guard maximum horsepower rating for any Whaler hull", why, he could do as you and wind up with a racin' yacht, too:-!
Clark Roberts posted 08-25-2004 07:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Buckda, I have had many V6 Mercs and my experience is that they don't break, wear out, yes, after maybe 3000hrs. Neglect and improper maint./service/useage could be the main killer of any outboard I would keep the engine and as to smoke... check out the pressure balancing tubes (maybenot the correct terminology)...which connect the crank cases. If your engine has the tubes with the tiny check valves in-line then clogging of these tiny valves/lines can cause belching smoke on start up and whispy smoke under way. AS A MINIMUM, check and clear or replace these lines and while you're at it, replace the plastic oil line which runs from ready tank to oil pump and any other degradable oil lines and all fuel lines. This will breath (no pun intended) new life into the old girl and prevent an untimely heart attack. All above can be done easily in a days puttering around and for a few bucks. Also check to see if oil metering adjustment (screw adjustment on oil pump actuating rod attachment...the rod from throttle linkage which modulates the oil pump volume...) as most have two settings (check maint. manual), one for break in and one for after break in (may still be on break in setting).. a lot of mechanics are unaware of these settings...why? beats me! Beam me up.. Clark.. Spruce Creek Navy
PS> a "link and sync" procedure from a good mechanic (adjusts all throttle and timing links to factory specs) would be well worth the expense, which is not very much at all and proper throttle/timing could also reduce that smoke thing...
jimh posted 08-25-2004 08:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Moved from another forum.]
Backlash posted 08-25-2004 05:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Backlash  Send Email to Backlash     

I was speaking from a practical standpoint. A single 150 makes more sense for most boaters; good performance, economy, and half the maintenance. Personally, if I were repowering an 18 I'd look very seriously at the Yamaha F150!


kamie posted 08-25-2004 05:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for kamie  Send Email to kamie     
If Dave or I repowered with twins they would not be street legal as they would be over powered. Granted not as over powered as Larry's but over powered none the less. Too keep the 18 legal you would need to repower with twin 75's.
george nagy posted 08-27-2004 05:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
Sometimes I see unbelievable prices on 135 opti's and often think I would repower my 18 with one if I hadn't already done it. Looking at data supplied by whaler on both the 135 and 150 opti's the 135 looks just fine to me and it is 3 star to boot. But I do agree with others in the respect to the "If it aint broke don't fix it" logic.
elaelap posted 08-27-2004 05:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
I know I'm wasting my time, Dave, but I'm sure happy with a Yamaha 115 hp four stroke on my Outrage 18, and CW member SalA is 'looking to sell' an almost new, almost identical Mercury 115 hp four stroke over in the Marketplace forum for a very reasonable amount.

I hit an honest 40 mph at 5800 rpm WOT one hole up, could probably do better with some prop tweaking, and the fuel economy is incredible. My boat gets up onto plane fairly fast and cruises forever in its sweet spot at 24-25 mph/3800-4000 rpm.

Several members of this forum who own or have owned OR 18s with 150 hp two strokes have been amazed at the performance I get out of this combination when they've actually cruised in or next to my boat. But don't take my word for it, Dave...Orbitz has some great deals on roundtrip airfare from the windy city to Oakland or S.F.; c'mon out and we'll kill some salmon in Cetaceous and you can try the combination out for yourself.


dfmcintyre posted 08-27-2004 10:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Dave -

If you want to see what your 18 might look with twins, check the images real close that I sent you.


ewalsh posted 08-28-2004 05:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for ewalsh  Send Email to ewalsh     
I'm with Tony on this.. I think 115hp is an ideal horsepower for the <1992 classic Outrage. My 1990 Outrage 19 is powered by a 1999 Yamaha 115hp 2 Stroke. I see, when running light, 43 (and even 44) mph on the digital gauge (not GPS, but tested to be accurate at that speed) at 5,800 RPM. Cruise is 30mph at 3,900 RPM. When heavy, the boat still leaps out of the water. Climbing up the back of steep waves barely drops the RPMs (~100 to 200 rpm). My engine is mounted to a 4" setback plate, and I did spend some time getting the height "just right". I use my boat in the ocean and can't find any reason to go any faster in this size hull.

I have been on several Outrage 18/19 with 150hp V6 engines and, other than the increased weight and fuel consumption, can't find any appreciable differnce in terms of their performance/handling.

Yamaha's have big block V4 115's when compared to OMC, so your mileage may vary with other manufactures of this horsepower range.


Peter posted 08-28-2004 09:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I'm of the opinion that once you've had a 150 on the transom of an 18 Outrage, its hard to go with anything less. Put 4 people in it with a full tank of fuel as well as their gear and a cooler and you'll be wishing you had the 150. When I had my 18 Outrage, the 150 turned about 2700 RPM at 25 MPH and about 3300 at 30 MPH.

Yamaha's V4 has the same displacement as OMC/BRP's V4. Both displace 105 cubic inches.

hooter posted 08-28-2004 10:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
pale, ewalsh, do y'all use blue, pink or poiple wash in your hair when you do the weekly dye job? Ah really want t' know.

Ain't a friggin thin' RIGHT about 115 li'l bitty ponies on the back of a Whaler 18' 6" hull. Happy, mah arse! That hull is a gottdamn bull that ya'll has toined into a friggin' steer with that trollin' motor y'all screwed onto the transome. Don't be tellin' people that you actually under-powered your rigs so much. Just keep mum, like, so people don't get the idea, ok? The Whaler Outrage 18'/19' hull is designed for one power source, only. Thaz a 150 2-cycle motor weighin' under 400 lbs. Anythin' else is a gottdamn compromize fit for a gottdamn nursin' home denizen. WHY do people do it!? Beats hell out'a me:-!

holiberry posted 08-28-2004 11:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for holiberry  Send Email to holiberry     
thaz pruttyguud hooter! yu shud be own teevee!!
2manyboats posted 08-29-2004 01:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for 2manyboats  Send Email to 2manyboats     
I just bought a used corvette . The 350ci v8 was smoking a little bit and had 75000 miles on it so I replaced it with a little 4 cylinder out of a s10 pick up. With 1/2 a tank of gas and a light load the corvette will still get up to 65mph in most conditoins and cruise all day at 35mph.

That 4 sure is sweet.

2manyboats posted 08-29-2004 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for 2manyboats  Send Email to 2manyboats     
Sorry wrong forum

I told the corvette club If you want a new motor go buy a new 150 anything no quandry just do it

MyOutrage posted 08-29-2004 10:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for MyOutrage  Send Email to MyOutrage     
I'm with Ed... I have an '89 Outrage with an '89 Yamaha 130. This weekend I had 7 on board (4 adults and 3 kids) and they were able to pull me out of the water on a slalom ski with no problem. As for speed.... I'm on the Long Island Sound and 18' can only go so fast on that body of water.
elaelap posted 08-30-2004 01:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
Great post, hoot, and you too, 2manyboats. Very funny and witty. Got a few facts wrong, but ya know, who really cares about that, anyway? What truly amazes and amuses me at this site is the, uh, enthusiasm some folks bring to a discussion of outboard motors. I just can't get into it; maybe it comes of having been a sailor for the 45 years preceding the purchase of my first non-dinghie motorcraft, and still having some sort of residual dislike for 'large' motors on boats. On the other hand, yesterday I went out in Royce's sweet OR 25 powered by two big nasty Merc 150 two strokes and had the time of my life blasting around on the ocean.

Anyway, a couple of facts I considered before repowering my '88 Outrage 18 with a Yamaha 115 four stroke:

1) California is swiftly phasing out traditional two stroke motors, and I decided to wait a while to see how the new technology, CARB 3-Star two strokes work out;

2) I didn't want to put a whole lot of weight on my transom, but I wanted four stroke power. The 410 lbs my motor weighs is just about the limit I want back there for my sort of year-round use in relatively challenging, lumpy seas;

3) I use my boat a lot; I've got almost 200 hours on my 'new' motor since repowering in May of this year; and I'm very conscious of rising gas prices; the Yamaha 115 4/s is incredibly economical;

4) My boat came with an over-the-hill 115 Yamaha two stroke which pushed her along surprisingly well;

5) The classic Outrage 18 is rated by Boston Whaler for motors ranging from 75 to 150 horse power, so the 115 is sorta mid-range according to Dougherty and BW;

6) Finally, hooter and you other guys who seem to always need lots of power on the transom of your boats, think over hooter's metaphor about a bull and a steer...if it makes you feel somehow more macho to blast around all day in the most powerful motorcraft you can buy, more power to ya. I'm pretty much O.K. with my gender identification at this point in my life, and frankly I've never felt that a big powerful car or boat does much one way or other for my personality.


2manyboats posted 08-30-2004 02:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for 2manyboats  Send Email to 2manyboats     
It's like I always say if you can't grow it big you can always buy it big.
2manyboats posted 08-30-2004 02:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for 2manyboats  Send Email to 2manyboats     
Don't know how that happened, but our 13 is underpowered with a 25 four stroke and because of weight (25 four stroke is about the same as 40 two stroke) we went with the 25.

This was at a time when our daughter was still racing her laser all over the country and we never knew when it might be on an inland body of water that had baned 2 strokes.

And as we found out last month the 25 gets 3 times the mpg as the 40 and only 6 or 7 kts less speed.

Now if I could just find a trailer hitch for the vette.

hooter posted 08-30-2004 08:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Speakin' of hammers, you ever seen a 20-oz. hammer in the hand of a really good rough-in carpenter and compared the results with what a pencil neck sports writer or bean counter could accomplish with the same tool? Some hands can handle a big tool, others just bend nails and draw blood. Same thing goes for power on the transome. Fit the tool to the hand, Ah always say. No sense bein' disrespectful when admiration's what's called for.

Buy a 2-cycle 150; you'll grow to fit the tool. Case closed:-!

Buckda posted 08-30-2004 08:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Gentlemen -

Thanks for your thoughts, insights and (I hope) humor.

You've given me some good information and points to ponder over the next few months.

Clark - an extra thanks for pointing out ways to perhaps make my existing powerplant a little better - I'll give some of your suggestions a try and see what happens.

In the meantime, the boat is unusable right now anyway as I'm restoring the wood and refinishing it all with varnish.



Joe Kriz posted 08-30-2004 09:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     

Nothing like photos to show how your boat is looking.... :-)
How about posting a few photos so we all can see?

Restoration can be fun while you are doing it and a great satisfaction when you are done. (are we ever finished?)

I enjoyed refinishing mine and always enjoy sharing the photos.

I have seen a few before shots of your Outrage just before you purchased it.
I am looking forward to seeing the "after" shots when you get around to it.


Buckda posted 08-31-2004 10:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Joe -

Lots of photos on

Progressively from purchase in different digital camera is broken, so I'm back to the "old" way and so photos from now on out might be delayed a bit as the restoration process really gets under way...

Here's what's been added:
Full Mills Canvas
GPS/Sonar combo unit
Fixed VHF and antenna
Forward deck extension (for sleeping/camping aboard)

The rest of the project is moving forward this fall and winter (I had to get some use out of the boat this year!).

Go to
Main Album: Buckda
"18' Outrage" contains photos from before the purchase
"Gov't Island Trip" contains photos from the first real use of the boat (5-guys going camping)
"Georgian Bay 2004" has photos with the full canvas, etc.

You can see where the gunwales need work, etc. I'm in the middle of that process right now...she's going to be a real beauty when I'm done!


Sal A posted 08-31-2004 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal A  Send Email to Sal A     
Hey Joe,

Almost as impressive as your boat is how organized you keep your garage/workshop.


Joe Kriz posted 08-31-2004 11:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     

Nice photos and your Outrage is coming along nicely.
I like the new complete Mills.


I used to be a shop teacher.
Safety First.
Then Organization..
Can't teach something if you can't find it. I guess it carried out through the rest of my daily life. I believe some people would call it Anal? :-)

Buckda posted 08-31-2004 11:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Oh, and I changed the name graphics (but kept the name).

Sal - I agree...amazing! Joe's boat is really great - and looks like he has a great garage too!

Buckda posted 08-31-2004 12:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Updated Photobucket Georgian Bay folder with three additional photos taken by Don McIntyre from Walt Steffens' 25' Revenge at Northernaire Lodge in Bayfield Sound on Manitoulin Island.



MyOutrage posted 08-31-2004 06:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for MyOutrage  Send Email to MyOutrage     
What size and brand cooler do you us under your lean post? I have the same lean post and like the idea of the additional cooler.
ewalsh posted 08-31-2004 07:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for ewalsh  Send Email to ewalsh     

Great post. You clearly have a valued and distinct opinion. I enjoy the rather interesting and delicate manner by which you share your thoughts. It's almost like you're writng to your journal. For example, in this thread about outboard motor choices for the Outrage 18/19 hull, you first write of pink and purple hair dye and then later of phallic hammers. Though I thought we were talking about engine choices for the Outrage 18, I maybe missed something? Lost in translation?

But I must say, you are wrong about one thing; you don't need the force of a 20lb hammer to drive a nail home when you're savvy enough to realize a nail gun does the job allot more efficiently, and effectively....But hey, maybe your Outrage 18 has a 150hp and maybe you bought that motor because the girls at the salon told you that is the only engine to have. Heck, everyone succumbs to peer pressure... Maybe your bayou crowd just likes big hammers in their back rivers.

The Bean Counter

hooter posted 09-03-2004 09:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
This boy may do damage to his self with even a li'l 8 oz. ball ping (like that 115), eh? The truth must hoit a lot.

Yes, a 130 or 135 h.p. motor will push that hull around adequately, if all you aspire to is adequacy. The univoisal rule o' boat pow'r is to stay at or above 80% of the maximum pow'r rated for the hull in question.

As in all matters, Ed, some guys have it, others get it, some compensate and others just make eloquent excuses:-!

Buckda posted 09-03-2004 09:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Hoot -

Just curious re: at or above 80% of max rated power.

Why then, don't you recommend powering beyond the max rating (besides perhaps, local regulations, etc...I'm talking in terms of handling and response).

Thanks for your thoughts everyone...I really am listening to your thoughts and opinions, and continue to give this serious thought.

My Outrage - I sent you an e-mail with info regarding the cooler specs.

Thanks again.


hooter posted 09-03-2004 09:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
And one more highly valuable thought on hammers, Ed: yeah, you can teach a monkey within an hour to slap boards together with a nail gun, but within a day or two that monkey'll put a nail through one o' his or a co-woiker's appendages, or woise. Where's the elegance in that? If you're just the guy countin' the beans spent on the buildin' under construction, why, who gives a damn about skill or elegance, eh? No, a strong, skilled arm swingin' a 20 ounce (not pound, there, Ed. "oz." is an abbreviation for ounce) hammer has a beauty to it that only someone on the job site ever' day, ah guess, can appreciate.

Mah reference was an apparently too subtle allegory 'bout guys with plenty dough whose emotional state leads them to under-pow'r boats; purely psychological was the inference and nothin' biological as you suggest. Some guys have it, others get it, some compensate, and others just make eloquent excuses:-!

hooter posted 09-03-2004 10:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
But Ah digress.

Dave, Ah recommend stickin' to the Coast Guard's max rating for the simple reason that, at least within the range of small ocean-capable boats Ah've experience with, those up to 25 foot in length, that rating will push the boat to about 50 mph, plus or minus a couple mph, and thaz fast enough. Above the rated h.p., at the consequently achievable speeds most hulls start to get "squirrely" in that too much of the hull loses contact with the water in certain circumstances, leaving the captain in a reduced state o' control over they vessel. Yes, with practise, some people do get proficient at anticipating when their hull is going to "lose it", and they learn how to safely handle the resulting drive characteristics. But these skills are unnecessary f' the purposes such boats were designed in the foist place. Too much pow'r usually also means too much weight on the transom, leading to some strange movin' around of batt'ries and fuel cannisters to obtain at least a semblance of appropriate static trim. Insurance is another matter to boaters that like t' buy insurance, as you'll find a limited number of more-costly policy options when you over-pow'r your rig.

Some savvy boaters on this site love big pow'r, and Ah'm sure they can counter ever' pernt Ah've made here, but there's a few reasons to think about:-!

Plotman posted 09-03-2004 10:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
If I were repowering an 18, (assuming I could get someone to insure it without breaking the bank) I would definately put a 200 Merc EFI on it rather than a 150, seeing as how there is only 50lbs of difference weight and $1000 in cost between the two. (move a battery to the console if the weight bothers you). I wouldn't lie to my insurance carrier, but I would put 150 decals on the cowl if I was worried about the local sherrif.

That 200 is going to a) give better gas mileage at any given speed the 150 will push the boat b) last longer because it will be working less hard at any given speed and c) is going to have the exta power/speed there on the rare occasion when you are going to want it - when trying to run home ahead of a storm, when the boat is full of you and 7 of your beefiest friends plus a bunch of camping gear, etc...

HP ratings are creations of lawyers to protect manufacturers from litigous


Plotman posted 09-03-2004 10:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
Whoops - HP ratings are creations of lawyers to protect manufacturers from litigous idiots.

If you need to be protected from yourself, or if you let some 16 year old kid use the boat unsupervised - don't overpower it.

Otherwise, the extra power can be nice to have, and the extra 10% you would pay for the 200 over the 150 is probably going to pay for itself over the life of the engine in greater longevity and better mileage.

hooter posted 09-03-2004 12:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Much of the last 20 years here, Ah did have teenagers unsupervised in all our boats at dif'rent times. But then they were well schooled in the proper use of all kinds o' machinery. They'd also been given a healthy respect for the certain consequences of indiscriminate idiocy, gen'rally, and involvin' mah gear, specifically. So Plotman makes a good pernt. But even with the kids all grown, Ah stick to mah pernt. The max rating on all Classic Whaler hulls is plenty to get the job done, with pow'r to spare.

Given the new Whalers' increased weight per foot o' hull length and the increased influence o' the plaintiff bar that seems to prevail at Brunswick, many here report that the max ratings on some new Whalers appear t' be below what those hulls are designed to carry. Max-rated WOT mph speeds in the low 40's is what suggests that these hulls could handle 25% to 30% more pow'r than the ratings indicate.

Buckda posted 09-06-2004 08:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
My Outrage -

Igloo 94 QT.


MyOutrage posted 09-06-2004 08:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for MyOutrage  Send Email to MyOutrage     
Thanks Dave... good luck with your re-power. I remember it being a difficult decision. As I indicated before, I repowered w/ used 2 smoke 130 Yamaha. I'm going to sit on the side lines till the industry figures out what the new standard will be.
Chesapeake posted 09-06-2004 09:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chesapeake  Send Email to Chesapeake     

Since I finally own a whaler again, I feel compelled to re-engage on the site.

For what it is worth, was out on my brother's 72 Outrage a few weeks ago. He repowered with the Yamaha 150 4-stroke. While I understand that, like LHG, you're a Merc guy, that motor seemed to me to be built with the Outrage 18 in mind. Since the new Merc 150 is not out, it is the way I would go.

Good luck on the decision.


Buckda posted 09-14-2004 06:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Okay, I’m trying to tackle this in a systematic way and one that makes sense from a variety of standpoints.

I’ve been working through calculations based on price, weight and price to weight ratio comparisons.

For the time being, I am assuming power up to 200 HP in a combination of single or twin motors. Once this becomes more of a discussion with a dealer rather than an abstract exercise, I may have to narrow the field based on what they are willing to do and what my insurer is willing to write policies for.

My comparisons are for 12 different motors/combinations, all within the Mercury lineup, from classic carbed two-strokes all the way to estimated costs associated with Verado.

Therefore, what I think to be the most important calculation is power to weight ratio for best performance; however when I work this out, the twin configuration almost always comes out on the bottom. When I calculate the cost/HP ratio – the twin configuration does better, but limits me to the simple carbed combination that will be phased out over the next year.

(Two motors were eliminated for weight greater than 650 lbs; the 75 and 90 HP Optimax motors (twins - 750 lbs combined weight). Verado 200 slipped into the figures at 649 lbs; what I consider an absolute maximum transom weight).

*special note here – since the above question was never answered on this particular topic, I’ve assumed a straight $3,000 fee to rig the boat with the motor(s), controls and smartcraft gauges. However, this number was not used in the price to HP comparisons or the pricing comparisons and is assumed to be a similar, straight fee for such work. This figure is also DEDUCTED from the estimated $16,000 price tag on Verado since it has been rumored to be the “installed” cost of the motor.

The remaining motors / combinations in play are listed below based on HP:
200 Classic
200 EFI
200 Optimax
200 Verado
90 Classic (twin configuration)
175 Optimax
150 Classic
150 EFI
150 Optimax
75 Classic (twin configuration)

The overall “winner” in most categories is the classic Mercury 200 from a power to weight ranking (.492) to the cost per HP rank ($44.99). The initial cost for this motor is ($8,999) at Ed’s (#2 in the overall cost rankings).From there it becomes more cloudy –

From a straight cost perspective, the order is as follows (75 and 90 HP figures are doubled for TWIN configuration):
1. 150 Classic
2. 200 Classic
3. 150 EFI
4. 75 Classic (TWIN)
5. 150 Optimax
6. 200 EFI
7. 90 Classic (TWIN)
8. 175 Optimax
9. 200 Optimax
10. 200 Verado

From a power to weight ranking:
1. 200 Classic
2. 200 EFI
3. 175 Optimax
4. 200 Optimax
5. 150 Classic
6. 150 EFI
7. 150 Optimax
8. 200 Verado
9. 90 Classic (TWIN)
10. 75 Classic (TWIN)

From a cost to horsepower ranking:
1. 200 Classic
2. 150 Classic
3. 200 EFI
4. 200 Optimax
5. 90 Classic (TWIN)
6. 150 EFI
7. 175 Optimax
8. 75 Classic (TWIN)
9. 200 Verado
10. 150 Optimax

My question is this: What calculation (besides cost) do you feel is the most important in determining a motor combination, and what would you consider the minimum power/weight ratio (these run the gamut from .497 for the 200 Optimax to .200 for the twin 75 Classics).

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Plotman posted 09-14-2004 07:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     

There are other factors that are going to weigh very heavily on your satisfaction with your choice that are never going to show up in the comparisons you have listed here - for example, in comparing the classic to the EFI or optimax versions of the same HP, you are clearly going to come out more favorable on all metrics with the classic - the various fuel injection systems are going to add both cost and weight.

However, owning boats with both the classic and EFI versions of a merc V6, I can tell you that there is no way I would ever pick a classic model over an EFI offering of the same HP given the fairly small difference in price. The ease of starting, idling, etc of the EFI brings huge benefits that the ratios won't measure.

IMHO, the "extra" benefits of the opti over the EFI aren't worth it, but then I've never owned an optimax, just run a friends boat for the weekend.

If you can get it past your insurance, I would definately go for the 200 over the 150 - the weights and cost are close enough that to me it would be worth having the extra power available if/when you need it. The higher HP engine WILL last longer and provide better as you will run it at lower RPM at any given speed.

That doesn't really help you with your analysis on twins, or on the verado, but it is a start...


Peter posted 09-14-2004 07:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Dave, I've never been that scientific about the motor selection process and don't think you need to be. It's hard to rationalize the economics of a luxury item.

In my view, its very simple. Repower with a 150, it provides enough reserve HP for the 18 Outrage and its within the capacity rating. All you need to do is decided on the flavor: carb, EFI, DI, 4-stroke or blown 4-stroke. If idle noise bother you, go 4-stroke. If speed, acceleration and good fuel economy at WOT is your thing, go DI. If loud, fast and smokey doesn't bother you, save yourself some money and go EFI or carb. If ease of starting is a concern, spend the extra money and chose EFI over the carb. If you want to do the pure low cost thing, go classic carb as it will take a very long time to recoup the extra bucks spent on the DI or 4-stroke in fuel savings.

While not a calculation, physical size from an aesthetics perspective is also an important factor which would rule out using the Verado 200. I have seen a Verado on the back of a low profile 21 foot bass boat. It looked out of proportion on the bass boat and so I have to say that its size would be well out of proportion on the relatively low profile 18 Outrage. Also, when tilted up to a shallow water angle, some comentary on the Verado hanging on the transom of the bass boat suggested that it looked like Shamu doing something unmentionable here.

jimh posted 09-14-2004 08:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Dave--by limiting your analysis to the Mercury brand you have missed the current value leader: the 150-HP Yamaha carburetor 2-stroke, selling for $6,800 at the moment (at Ed's Superstore).

EFI is nice, but, the truth be told, outboard motors ran fine for 40 years with carburetors. How many times will you be starting your motor in really cold tempertures, say below 50-degrees. Not that often.

LHG posted 09-14-2004 09:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Peter you are wrong about noise on EFI's, at least with Mercs. As the owner of two 200 EFI's, I can tell you they are the quiestest running outboards made in that HP. Quieter than the carbs they replaced, definitely quieter than the Optimax or Yamaha 225 4-strokes. Only the Verado may beat them for running noise at cruise, and even that I'm not sure of.

Dave - what wrong with the Merc 150 you are currently running. Seems to be very fast and perform well. If you remember on the GB trip, nobody could keep up with either one of us and our Merc 150's. My mechanic told me they are really putting out about 170 HP

Peter posted 09-14-2004 10:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Well Larry, I've been around several pair of 3L Merc 250 EFIs in my neighborhood and not one of them struck me as quiet. The were certainly louder to my ears than my old Yamaha 3.1L 225 EFI. Sound level is somewhat subjective but to these ears I would put the Merc 250 EFI at the same level as my old cross flow Johnson 150. Maybe the Merc 150 EFI is quieter than its carb counterpart but it wouldn't be by that much. Does that alone make it worth the extra money?

One other thing to consider in the EFI versus carb debate is whether EFI requires a good working battery. Battery condition should not be a factor for the carbureted version. At least it wasn't for my carbureted Johnson 150.

Everything else (sound, smokiness, fuel economy) being equal, the simplicity of the carbureted version really can't be beat.

Buckda posted 09-15-2004 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
JimH -
I did consider the Yamaha 150 HP 2-stroke in the earliest notes (which also included the Evinrudes and even the Hondas).

As I continued to think about this and what my overall vision for the finished/restored boat is, I don't want anything else on the back. The decision is not about price (although the best bang for the performance, etc. will be part of the final decision).

This is not to say that I'm on an unlimited budget...I just think that when the boat is completely finished with new power (which may not actually happen until next fall), the look I'm going for has a Mercury power plant back there.

Larry - nothing is wrong per se with the motor back there, but it is 19 years old, has spent that time until this spring in salt/brackish water, has significant corrosion in the electronical connections on the powerhead, and has an unknown repair history. Plus I do know that the lower unit gears have been changed, so it has definitely "found bottom" hard at least once (also evidenced by the skegguard on the skeg).

The above combination makes me somewhat uneasy thinking about true reliability and taking the boat far offshore alone, and/or into the Wilderness areas of Canada for camping alone; which makes me think that a repower before a major breakdown is a prudent decision, although maybe not the most economical one. That said, it is entirely possible that I may wait through next summer before going this route for a variety of reasons as I continue to restore and modify the boat.

Also - you're considering repowering your 18, right? Why? Those 115's run great. I have no way of telling how many hours are on my motor, but since she was in Texas, can assume that she got more year-round use than boats do up here in the MidWest - again, adding to my uncertainty on the motor...

Peter -
I've continued to keep the 150 HP motors on my list for the exact reasons that you've stated, however, when fully loaded with the guys and gear, I will argue that the 150 HP begins to struggle...not a lot, but if that can be easily eliminated by strapping 175 or more HP on the back; then I'm all for exploring that as an option.

Still thinking....


Peter posted 09-15-2004 12:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Dave, is yours a 2.0 liter or a 2.5 liter 150? I believe for a while that Merc was making a 2.0 liter 150.
Moe posted 09-15-2004 02:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
I'm gonna vote with Backlash and Chesapeake... the Yamaha F150 is what I'd recommend for you. It's a popular motor that's developed a good reputation.


andygere posted 09-15-2004 02:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Good analysis and an interesting thread. I'm running an '89 Mercury 200 (essentially the Classic 200) on my OUtrage 22 Cuddy, and the boat really flies along. My best GPS speed on flat water is about 43 mph, and that's with a T-top and enclosure! Holeshot with a 19p High Five prop is outstanding, regardless of load. With that motor on your 18, I'm certain you'll take the Fastest Outrage 18 title away from Larry with ease.

Since you are considering this repower primarily on the basis of offshore/wilderness dependability, I'm curious why you are not including a kicker motor in your analysis. The obvious answer is the cost, but since you are considering some pretty exotic options like twin 90's and the Verados, I'll bet you could get a 150 h.p. main and an 8-10 h.p. kicker for around the same budget.

Buckda posted 09-15-2004 02:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Great question Andy...the answer is simple...if I go with a big single for a main, I have a 6 HP Johnson already available that can be used as the kicker, I will simply need to carry a gerry can rigged for the Johnson with fuel and siphon (which I already do) for additional fuel if needed. I can use the oil that I also carry along.

You should actually see the pages of data that I actually have on this - all hand calculated on the CTA every morning!

The power to weight ratios are as follows:
200 Classic = .492
200 EFI = .423
175 Optimax = .406
200 Optimax = .402
150 Classic = .375 <---- This is roughly the equivalent to my current motor
150 EFI = .352
150 Optimax = .348
200 Verado = .308
90 Classic = .295 (TWIN)
75 Classic = .247 (TWIN)

Given these figures, can I expect the performance curve to come out relatively the same? (i.e. poorest performance with twins??!) Or am I oversimplifying things (amazing considering all the calculating it took to get these figures).

I agree that the 200 EFI at WOT would really scream on that boat (I can hit 46 MPH, GPS with my 150).

It's not so much about speed, though I do like the thought of all that reserve's more for how hard the motor has to work on a regular basis to move me along. The theory is that the harder it is working on a regular basis, the shorter the engine life...and consequently the more likely a failure when it is most unwelcome.

Moe, Chesapeake and Steve -
Unless there is a compelling reason for the Yamaha 150 HP over the Merc 150, I'd prefer to stay with the phantom black fleet....

(Not knocking anyones contrary decisions here, but I'm afraid I've bought into the buy American if you have the means argument.)

Peter -
I'd have to check my manual, but I believe it is a 2.5 litre 150 is a big motor!

Moe posted 09-15-2004 03:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Dave, the compelling reasons for me...

The F150 is a four-stroke vs the 150 Opti. As with diesel truck owners, most 4-stroke owners say they'll never go back. And it's only 25 lbs heavier than the 150 Opti.

The F150 is cleaner, three star vs the 150 Opti two-star. These two, and the slightly heavier Honda 150 VTEC, would be my only choices at 150 HP. There's no way I'd spend that much money these days on a dirty, no-star two-stroke motor.

The F150 and 150 VTEC have a 3 year warranty vs the 150 Opti's 2+1.

I believe in buy-American too... when they make what I want.

LHG posted 09-15-2004 04:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Moe - Once you've experienced the Merc Verado 150 4-stroke, you won't want one of those Yamaha F150's! I have yet to hear of anyone who would prefer a Yamaha 225 4-stroke over a Merc Verado 250 either. It's like comparing apples and oranges, including HP output and acceleration.

Dave - Both of our Mercury 150's are the smaller 2.0 liter engines, with a 2:1 gear ratio. For a block this size, they put out a lot of power. Later 150's are 2.5 liter, 1.87:1 gear ratio, as are the 200's.

Peter posted 09-15-2004 04:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Dave, that may be the reason why your motor seems to be lacking grunt when the boat is loaded up. Back in my "youth" I ran my 18 Outrage with a 2.5L 150 Johnson against a friend in a 17 Hydrasport with one of those 2L 150s. His was almost brand new, mine was 5 years old at the time. He couldn't keep up, hole shot or top end. Sorry Larry, but that's the truth.

Larry, what's the story with the 150 Verado, have you run one yet? What do they weigh?

Moe posted 09-15-2004 04:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Larry, like the E-Tec, the Verado is a bit too bleeding-edge for me. There were a lot of guys who jumped on the new, 6.0L, higher horsepower PowerStroke Diesel, but I stuck with the 7.3L with good operational history. In retrospect, I'm sure glad I did.

I also believe even the 4-cylinder Verado is going to be too heavy for good trim on the classic 18 Outrage/19 Guardian. The latter is rated 470 lbs max motor weight.


Joe Kriz posted 09-15-2004 05:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Joe Kriz  Send Email to Joe Kriz     
I am putting my money on the E-Tech 150 when it comes out.
I will however wait until the second year of its' release.

I also purchased the 6.0L Powerstroke diesel the second year after they worked out most all of the bugs. I am glad I did. I have not had any problems and the power is really awesome. I have to be carefull about going uphill towing my Outrage 18 unless I keep an eye on the speedometer. I find myself going way to fast uphill as I was always used to holding the accelerator to the floor on my prior Gas engines. Nothing but power...

Buckda posted 09-15-2004 05:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
If in fact, the Verado pricing includes smartcraft guages and rigging, and the pricing scheme mirrors pricing on their other lines in terms of spacing between HP ratings, then the 150 HP Verado may be a good option as well, though I suspect that the power/weight will come in somewhere around .32X, similar to the power to weight ratio of the Yamaha F150.

But those are big ifs. If the new Verado comes into the picture before I have made a decision, then a four-stroke may be in the future.

I believe LHG has about 630 lbs on 10" brackets along with the batteries in the back of his 18. I would suspect that the transom could handle about 650 lbs max...but obviously the fewer pounds back there the better.

All this has been a lovely discussion about personal preferences for other brands of motors which I have already cut from teh running; this is getting away from some of the key questions I've had throughout this thread:

1. Approximately how much should it cost to rig the boat, assuming new guages and remote throttle?
2. What is an approximate trade in value on a 1986 150 HP motor in "expected" condition for it's age?
3. What aspect of a motor do you feel is most important when selecting a replacement motor? (except Peter, who provided his thoughts very clearly in a helpful paragraph further up this thread - thanks Peter...dumped that information into the mix and am processing!)
4. When analyzing power to weight ratio, is there a minimum acceptable figure where I should "cut candidates", and does this figure change for twin applications?

You have my continued thanks for your input, which I have felt has been very helpful, but I'm also interested in getting some additional responses to the above four questions to help me.



andygere posted 09-15-2004 06:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
One final thought on power to weight ratio analysis. It's pretty well established that the Outrage 18 can carry a rather heavy engine load for its size. This boat also has great reserve bouyancy and therefore can carry a big payload. As long as you are not above the max transom weight for good trim, the total installed motor weight, or the differences between the various motors, is not all that important. Yes, it takes more power to move more weight to the same speed, all else equal, but that weight difference can easily be added or reduced with more or less fuel, gear and persons. My point is that at 150 total h.p. and above, this boat will really perform, and the extra weight of say an Optimax over a Classic probably won't make all that much difference. Price, noise, smoke, dependability, electrical power requirement (and output) etc. are probably more imortant criteria overall.
hooter posted 09-15-2004 06:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    

1. If you're payin' a machanic, $800 to $1,000. Add $800 if substituting hydraulic steering for new cable steering, somthin' Ah recommend.

2. Call it $500, tops. No, your motor dealer won't offer you a trade-in unless he's jacked up the motor price to cover it.

3. If you are focussed on performance, it's horsepower per pound of motor weight with no equivocation; nothin' else matters, unless you're confused about savin' whales or restorin' polar icecaps, stuff like that. Some may advocate a 4-banger, and they are confused.

4. Ah don't know of an algarithm, but it's simply a matter of how much less performance are you willin' to trade by increasin' the power-to-weight ratio in your purchase.

kamie posted 09-15-2004 07:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for kamie  Send Email to kamie     

I'm not sure you will get the poorest performance with twins. Look at the performance figures for the Outrage 240 and compare the twin Opti 135 to the Verado 275. Even with 5hp fewer and 304 more pounds the twins still planed 1.1 seconds faster and went 0-30 1.8 seconds faster. That 304 pounds is a buddy plus extra gear. Top speed for both combinations was in the 47MPH but the twins did that at a lower RPM.

Peter posted 09-15-2004 07:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
1. A good rigger that knows what he/she is doing should be able to get that boat derigged and rigged in about 4 to 5 hours assuming nothing unexpected. Throw in a sea trial to confirm all is right and I would say that 6 hours should do it. Throw in 2 more hours for the unknown and 8 hours is the max you should be paying for. At say $75 per hour, the rigging labor shouldn't run more than $600 in my opinion.

2. Around here, you'd be very lucky to fetch $500 for your trade-in. In your zipcode, maybe a little more? The dealer won't take it in trade but will facilitate a deal with a wholesaler that buys motors for their parts.

3. The most important aspects: reliability, simplicity in operation (less parts, less complication equals lower likelihood of problem, greater chance that I can diagnose it), battery independence (have had what seemed to be a perfectly good battery die while out on the water without warning), weight on the transom. Quietness and smokelessness are nice features to have, but at the end of the day they don't do anything to get you home and in fact may work against that objective.

4. I'll bet no one has previously analyzed this to the level you have.

The secret to good performance and engine longevity with a 18 Outrage based on my 10 seasons with one is to have at least 2.5L of displacement, preferably all in a single powerhead.

I firmly believe that 200HP is overkill and exposes you to liability you need not expose yourself to get a very good performing boat. Another reason to select a 150 instead of a 200 is the propeller. You may be able to reuse your propeller with a new 150. You would probably have to get a propeller with increased pitch for a 200 or repitch your current propeller assuming its a keeper. More money saved by staying with a 150.

In two of your three lists, the carb'd 150 scores very high and in the other it holds its own. If the players are limited to only those within the capacity limit of the 18 Outrage, its on the top of all of the lists. I'd say the carb'd 150 seems to be calling out to you.

LHG posted 09-15-2004 08:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Dave - As you might imagine, I've been through this whole situation, assuming I was going to move my Classic 115's (305# each, incidentally) over to the Classic rib side 21. Actually, your choices are MUCH LESS COMPLICATED than you indicate! And glad to see you're now a Mercury convert from OMC.

First of all, your days to make your decision are numbered, probably no later than May 1, 2005 if you want competitive pricing. The 2006 engines go into production sometime around then, and availability for carb or EFI 2-strokes will be difficult by then as people hunt around to scoop up what's left, probably having to pay more. If you don't act by then, your only choice will be Verado or Optimax 6 cylinder singles, or 60HP 4-stroke twins. Since the twin 60's won't cut it for you, your only real choice, considering cost, will be a 150 or 175 Optimax. Quite simple if you wait past May 1st. I don't think you want a huge 200 Optimax on that boat.

If you can make a decision, and spend the money before May 1st, your choices are still fairly simple:

1. If you want twins, you want 2 stroke Merc 90. The Merc 75 is the same engine, so why not get the full HP the engine can produce. Twin 75's will not be any stronger than what you currently have.

2. If you want a powerful single, go with the 200 EFI. My experience is that this one of the quietest, fastest and most reliable 200 HP outboards ever made, and probably one of the best 2-stroke outboards ever made, period. There is a lot more to a computer controlled EFI, including Smart Craft support, than the simple carburated version, way too much to indicate here. And they are faster, with less maintenance.
Since the Merc 150's are de-tuned versions of the 200's, and only slightly more powerful than what you have, again why bother. Get the performance the engine was designed to deliver. Expect her to run 60, and get better than 3 mpg on an 18. My twin's give me a decent 1.75-2.0 MPG on the 25, which is 3.5 to 4.0 MPG each.

So summarizing, you have 3 choices if you buy relatively soon, and only one (#3) if you wait!

1. twin 90s.
2. single V-6 2 stroke 200.
3. single Optimax 175.

A dark horse, if you really wait, could be Mercury's new, as yet un-announced, 75 or 90 4-strokes, probably based on a 1.3 liter 3 cylinder version of the Verado engine. These should be lighter than the current offerings using the Yamaha 4 cylinder block, and not supercharged. This would be for twins only, and no one really knows what mercury is doing here yet. All we know is what Yamaha has said, that Mercury will no longer be buying the 75-115 powerheads from them after March '05.

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