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JohnM posted 11-26-2004 12:24 AM ET (US)
I have 1983 Revenge Cuddy set up for fishing the Great lakes. I upgraded from the 1983 175 hp Evinrude to a 200 OX66 Saltwater Yamaha this spring with great results. I also had a used 1997 Yamaha 9.9 high thrust kicker that I ran for 2 years with no problems but last trip out this year died and will be replacing it(very disappointed and never found out what caused it with 400 hours). I met with the dealer yesterday and have narrowed my choices down to another 9.9 (10 amp charging system) which supposedly is new this year. The dealer did not know what was new about it other than controls and maybe a stronger fuel pump (old one required smaller fuel line) The other option was a 8 hp with power tilt. Smaller alternator (6 amp), a bit lighter, which is good with notched transom, and is cheaper, which is good. I looked at the 8 hp installation on the 22 Outrage on the site which looks great.
When fishing I primarily use my kicker, which runs all day long, saves lots of fuel and hours on big motor. From the 8 hp installation I picked up that he was very happy with the output of the 8 hp but I don't know if he uses it day in/day out or for just a backup. Any other members have any input?
John
JohnM posted 11-26-2004 12:30 AM ET (US)
Also the member mentioned he used a 20 inch shaft. I had a 25 inch shaft on the 9.9 I ran. Was It too long?
banff22 posted 11-26-2004 08:39 AM ET (US)
John
In other recent threads here I've been researching electrical and charging ideas for my 1984 22' Outrage and it seems to me that if you are running most of the day with the kicker you would want whichever motor puts out the most amps. The 10 amps. Some here, have even mentioned adding larger alternators to existing kickers to achieve this.
It's more cost, how much, I don't know but it could save running down other electrical systems while fishing with the right setup.
Regards,
Peter
JohnM posted 11-26-2004 11:53 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the reply. Before the 9.9 I had a older 15 hp Johnson with not much of a charging system. Basically it had max output at WOT. In fact the 175 Evinrude I believe had a 9 amp output at WOT. My electrical requirements are VHF, depthfinder/gps, running lights, 2 electric downriggers, and occasionally bilge pump if needed. I have a 2 battery setup and never had a problem after repowering. I believe the 200 has a 35 amp charging system. The 9.9 always kept everything charged while trolling which is sometimes all day. I am a little skeptical about the 9.9 and the problem I had with it this summer. It should have run for several years. Oil was changed every 50 hrs and looked like new. It appears to have been an isolated case as none of the dealers have never had one come back with those symptoms. I thought about replacing it with another used 9.9 which would be real simple but the warranty (3 years) is something to be considered. The dealer has several in stock, mostly rentals that look well used. The 9.9 didn't have any changes to it since the mid 90's. I do have the old motor and am looking for another powerhead to replace it with. I may just tear it down this winter and try to determine what caused the failure.
John
wwknapp posted 11-26-2004 09:47 PM ET (US)
JohnM:
I'm in the process of fixing up a used T9.9 to be a aux on my Montauk. Dealing with corrosion in the tilt and some in cowel components. Also had a bad regulator and the carb is pretty dirty. Otherwise a nice T9.9. It started life as a tiller model electric start, someone did a kind of conversion to remote, I'm making it fully the remote model.
I've not had the main motor apart and don't intend to, these are supposed to last a very long time, and this one has the compression of a new motor even though it's been well used. I don't know how many hours.
I've both the shop manual and parts manual. It does not look at all complex to tear down the motor. I'd sure do that before giving up on it. A complete new powerhead seems to be about $1500 from the source I've been using for parts if it came to that. What symptoms did it give you?
One thing of note if you do it, under the camshaft there is a anode in the head to be replaced. Annoying place they put it and it's not really pointed out. I'll probably replace it on mine, particularily if I can figure a way to do it with a valve adjust. It may require pulling the head.
If you decide to toss the motor, I might be interested in it for a parts donor. I'd also like to know what went wrong, they are supposed to be long lived motors.
When I was deciding on a aux for my Montauk, the high thrust 8 and 9.9 Yamaha pretty much seemed like the best choice. You can get a 10 amp charge out of the Honda 9.9, but it's not got that slower running prop that's so good for displacement running.
The T8 remote with tilt weighs 7 lbs more than the T9.9 remote. Probably a difference caused by the tilt. Weight is a issue with the Montauk, but probably not in your case. You can, of course put on a tilt bracket with the T9.9, such as the CMC PT-35 to get the only thing the T8 has over it. And the T8 does not have the 10 amp charge.
Walt
JohnM posted 11-28-2004 09:11 PM ET (US)
I don't really what caused it to go down. I regularly service the motor, usually after extended fishing trips. Our trips require 500 miles one way travel so my boat spends a lot of time on the road although I do leave it at the destination for July/Aug. On returning from the trip we stopped for fuel and did a once around and noticed engine oil leaking out of the water drain holes just above the gearcase. When we got home I checked it and sure enough it was down about half way on the dipstick. I changed oil, everything was tight, ran it for a while on the muffs and it appeared ok. Next trip over we were trolling for about 6 hours and it started squealing so we shut it down. That night we pulled the boat and there was about 1/2" left on the dipstick. There were no leaks under the hood or the drain plug. Filled up the oil, went fishing next morning and it wouldn't start so we used the big motor. Came in and tried it at the dock and it started up and sounded ok but under load it would die. Checked the oil and it was black with little nasty metallic looking particles floating in it!! Took it up to my dealer. He said it didn't have much compression although it would still start and run. There is no evidence under the hood of any leakage and I don't have a book for it. I think the leakage occurred while the motor was running. The oil I observed coming out the drain holes was residual. I wish I had pulled a compression test when I first noticed the problem. A fellow on another site is going through the halfway down thing right now and I clued him in on it. We do have a pretty good outboard junkyard up here which deals with insurance claim motors. He had a brand new 9.9 that was in a fire but it was locked up. He seems to get them in regularly. Usually lower unit damage. Insurance companies total them most of the time. Both the 9.9 and the Johnson would bolt right along side the main power on the notched transom.
John
wwknapp posted 11-28-2004 11:41 PM ET (US)
Do you suppose the thing that starts it is the oil pan corroding through? That's what struck me. The oil pan is down inside the mid section, and is a separate piece. A oil leak from it would go out where you say. New it's $114 at the place I get parts:
http://www.boats.net/index.html
BTW, they have a parts locator system that shows the Yamaha parts pages, if you want to look at how it all goes together that's one way that won't cost anything. I got the CD of the parts manuals and another CD of the service manuals off ebay. You'd need both of those to rebuild it.
It does sound like it's probably going to be a lot more now. Probably messed up the cylinder walls and pistons running without enough lube. They usually go before the bearings. Did the oil light go out at all? Actually if the light goes out the outboard should shut down, same switch does both. So it's probably no help. Or that switch is stuck on yours.
Wish I had that outboard junkyard to pick through. Lots of the parts I'm getting new could come from a used motor that had not had corrosion problems. You can probably get a good used powerhead that way. Just make sure and check the oil pan. I think I may pull the lower unit and see if I can see up in mine to see how the pan is. There was a fair amount of oil all over the place with it when it arrived, it had been drained, but shipping probably had it in all kinds of abnormal positions. There was a small amount of debris on the oil filter, I put in a new filter which is still clean.
Walt
JohnM posted 11-29-2004 07:56 PM ET (US)
The oil light stayed on. The oil light will actually be on when turning the motor over, just pulsing at a slower pace. I think if the light went out the motor would have seized up!! I've got my kids car motor ripped apart right now and will probably tear into the 9.9 when the other project is over. It's starting to get kind of cold here at night now and I have to heat up the garage to work on anything.
Is the parts locator you mentioned on boats.net? I'll have to check it out.
Thanks for the info,
John
wwknapp posted 11-29-2004 10:47 PM ET (US)
Yes, Boats Net is the place. It's actually a Florida Yamaha dealer if you order anything. Take the link I gave and the Yamaha choice on parts, then the find a part system. I've had no problems ordering from them except they generally only ship when they have everything on the list you give.
I got a kerosene heater for my workshop today. Tired of the cold in the winter.
Walt
gss036 posted 11-30-2004 12:58 AM ET (US)
I fished all day today w/ friend on a 24 Bayliner, running an 03 9.9 Yamaha w/electric start. We ran 2 Scotty electric downrigggers, radio,GPS and depth sounder w/no problems. I asked him if he had ever had problems with the engine making oil (gas going by the rings)and he said yes, until he put in a hotter thermonstat and hotter spark plug, since then no problems. The 9.9 handled the boat well in the 15-20 mph winds we had today. Good for the fishing also, we had 3 salmon.
JohnM posted 11-30-2004 11:11 PM ET (US)
gss, I just read that reply on another board! The 9.9 moved my Whaler very nicely. Charging system no problems. A friend of mine has a 25' Wellcraft with a large cuddy and it pushes it fine also. Could you get some numbers of the plugs and thermostats? Mine never really made oil...it lost oil!
gss036 posted 12-01-2004 07:47 PM ET (US)
Sounds like the guy already committed to another Yamaha. I think they are an excellent motor and several friends who use them. I have a 15 Honda that is about 6-7 years old and had to put in a hotter thermostat. I'll e-mail my buddy and see if he has the numbers off hand.
LHG posted 12-01-2004 08:10 PM ET (US)
It might be worth looking into the Mercury brand new 8 and 9.9HP 4-strokes. They say the 9.9HP Pro Kicker is specifically designed and configured for fishermen, with a Big Foot gearcase, special low vibration 4 blade prop, and power trim option. It weighs 107# with PT. The 8 horse model is only 84#. Both have electric start options, with 6 amp charging.
gss036 posted 12-02-2004 12:20 AM ET (US)
JohnM, I got an answer back real quick from my buddy, but not help. Said he went to the local Yamaha dealer and explaineed the problem and they gave him the plugs and thermostat. He doesn't know what the part numbers are. I suppose he could have pulled the plugs, but boat was not handy. Sorry I could not be more help.
JohnM posted 12-02-2004 08:45 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the reply. I got about 4 months to make a decision so it's no rush. Got a kids car motor tore down and taking up my garage now. When that project is finshed, I will be tearing down the 9.9 for a peek.

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Author	Topic: Kicker motor selection
JohnM	posted 11-26-2004 12:24 AM ET (US) I have 1983 Revenge Cuddy set up for fishing the Great lakes. I upgraded from the 1983 175 hp Evinrude to a 200 OX66 Saltwater Yamaha this spring with great results. I also had a used 1997 Yamaha 9.9 high thrust kicker that I ran for 2 years with no problems but last trip out this year died and will be replacing it(very disappointed and never found out what caused it with 400 hours). I met with the dealer yesterday and have narrowed my choices down to another 9.9 (10 amp charging system) which supposedly is new this year. The dealer did not know what was new about it other than controls and maybe a stronger fuel pump (old one required smaller fuel line) The other option was a 8 hp with power tilt. Smaller alternator (6 amp), a bit lighter, which is good with notched transom, and is cheaper, which is good. I looked at the 8 hp installation on the 22 Outrage on the site which looks great. When fishing I primarily use my kicker, which runs all day long, saves lots of fuel and hours on big motor. From the 8 hp installation I picked up that he was very happy with the output of the 8 hp but I don't know if he uses it day in/day out or for just a backup. Any other members have any input? John
JohnM	posted 11-26-2004 12:30 AM ET (US) Also the member mentioned he used a 20 inch shaft. I had a 25 inch shaft on the 9.9 I ran. Was It too long?
banff22	posted 11-26-2004 08:39 AM ET (US) John In other recent threads here I've been researching electrical and charging ideas for my 1984 22' Outrage and it seems to me that if you are running most of the day with the kicker you would want whichever motor puts out the most amps. The 10 amps. Some here, have even mentioned adding larger alternators to existing kickers to achieve this. It's more cost, how much, I don't know but it could save running down other electrical systems while fishing with the right setup. Regards, Peter
JohnM	posted 11-26-2004 11:53 AM ET (US) Thanks for the reply. Before the 9.9 I had a older 15 hp Johnson with not much of a charging system. Basically it had max output at WOT. In fact the 175 Evinrude I believe had a 9 amp output at WOT. My electrical requirements are VHF, depthfinder/gps, running lights, 2 electric downriggers, and occasionally bilge pump if needed. I have a 2 battery setup and never had a problem after repowering. I believe the 200 has a 35 amp charging system. The 9.9 always kept everything charged while trolling which is sometimes all day. I am a little skeptical about the 9.9 and the problem I had with it this summer. It should have run for several years. Oil was changed every 50 hrs and looked like new. It appears to have been an isolated case as none of the dealers have never had one come back with those symptoms. I thought about replacing it with another used 9.9 which would be real simple but the warranty (3 years) is something to be considered. The dealer has several in stock, mostly rentals that look well used. The 9.9 didn't have any changes to it since the mid 90's. I do have the old motor and am looking for another powerhead to replace it with. I may just tear it down this winter and try to determine what caused the failure. John
wwknapp	posted 11-26-2004 09:47 PM ET (US) JohnM: I'm in the process of fixing up a used T9.9 to be a aux on my Montauk. Dealing with corrosion in the tilt and some in cowel components. Also had a bad regulator and the carb is pretty dirty. Otherwise a nice T9.9. It started life as a tiller model electric start, someone did a kind of conversion to remote, I'm making it fully the remote model. I've not had the main motor apart and don't intend to, these are supposed to last a very long time, and this one has the compression of a new motor even though it's been well used. I don't know how many hours. I've both the shop manual and parts manual. It does not look at all complex to tear down the motor. I'd sure do that before giving up on it. A complete new powerhead seems to be about $1500 from the source I've been using for parts if it came to that. What symptoms did it give you? One thing of note if you do it, under the camshaft there is a anode in the head to be replaced. Annoying place they put it and it's not really pointed out. I'll probably replace it on mine, particularily if I can figure a way to do it with a valve adjust. It may require pulling the head. If you decide to toss the motor, I might be interested in it for a parts donor. I'd also like to know what went wrong, they are supposed to be long lived motors. When I was deciding on a aux for my Montauk, the high thrust 8 and 9.9 Yamaha pretty much seemed like the best choice. You can get a 10 amp charge out of the Honda 9.9, but it's not got that slower running prop that's so good for displacement running. The T8 remote with tilt weighs 7 lbs more than the T9.9 remote. Probably a difference caused by the tilt. Weight is a issue with the Montauk, but probably not in your case. You can, of course put on a tilt bracket with the T9.9, such as the CMC PT-35 to get the only thing the T8 has over it. And the T8 does not have the 10 amp charge. Walt
JohnM	posted 11-28-2004 09:11 PM ET (US) I don't really what caused it to go down. I regularly service the motor, usually after extended fishing trips. Our trips require 500 miles one way travel so my boat spends a lot of time on the road although I do leave it at the destination for July/Aug. On returning from the trip we stopped for fuel and did a once around and noticed engine oil leaking out of the water drain holes just above the gearcase. When we got home I checked it and sure enough it was down about half way on the dipstick. I changed oil, everything was tight, ran it for a while on the muffs and it appeared ok. Next trip over we were trolling for about 6 hours and it started squealing so we shut it down. That night we pulled the boat and there was about 1/2" left on the dipstick. There were no leaks under the hood or the drain plug. Filled up the oil, went fishing next morning and it wouldn't start so we used the big motor. Came in and tried it at the dock and it started up and sounded ok but under load it would die. Checked the oil and it was black with little nasty metallic looking particles floating in it!! Took it up to my dealer. He said it didn't have much compression although it would still start and run. There is no evidence under the hood of any leakage and I don't have a book for it. I think the leakage occurred while the motor was running. The oil I observed coming out the drain holes was residual. I wish I had pulled a compression test when I first noticed the problem. A fellow on another site is going through the halfway down thing right now and I clued him in on it. We do have a pretty good outboard junkyard up here which deals with insurance claim motors. He had a brand new 9.9 that was in a fire but it was locked up. He seems to get them in regularly. Usually lower unit damage. Insurance companies total them most of the time. Both the 9.9 and the Johnson would bolt right along side the main power on the notched transom. John
wwknapp	posted 11-28-2004 11:41 PM ET (US) Do you suppose the thing that starts it is the oil pan corroding through? That's what struck me. The oil pan is down inside the mid section, and is a separate piece. A oil leak from it would go out where you say. New it's $114 at the place I get parts: http://www.boats.net/index.html BTW, they have a parts locator system that shows the Yamaha parts pages, if you want to look at how it all goes together that's one way that won't cost anything. I got the CD of the parts manuals and another CD of the service manuals off ebay. You'd need both of those to rebuild it. It does sound like it's probably going to be a lot more now. Probably messed up the cylinder walls and pistons running without enough lube. They usually go before the bearings. Did the oil light go out at all? Actually if the light goes out the outboard should shut down, same switch does both. So it's probably no help. Or that switch is stuck on yours. Wish I had that outboard junkyard to pick through. Lots of the parts I'm getting new could come from a used motor that had not had corrosion problems. You can probably get a good used powerhead that way. Just make sure and check the oil pan. I think I may pull the lower unit and see if I can see up in mine to see how the pan is. There was a fair amount of oil all over the place with it when it arrived, it had been drained, but shipping probably had it in all kinds of abnormal positions. There was a small amount of debris on the oil filter, I put in a new filter which is still clean. Walt
JohnM	posted 11-29-2004 07:56 PM ET (US) The oil light stayed on. The oil light will actually be on when turning the motor over, just pulsing at a slower pace. I think if the light went out the motor would have seized up!! I've got my kids car motor ripped apart right now and will probably tear into the 9.9 when the other project is over. It's starting to get kind of cold here at night now and I have to heat up the garage to work on anything. Is the parts locator you mentioned on boats.net? I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the info, John
wwknapp	posted 11-29-2004 10:47 PM ET (US) Yes, Boats Net is the place. It's actually a Florida Yamaha dealer if you order anything. Take the link I gave and the Yamaha choice on parts, then the find a part system. I've had no problems ordering from them except they generally only ship when they have everything on the list you give. I got a kerosene heater for my workshop today. Tired of the cold in the winter. Walt
gss036	posted 11-30-2004 12:58 AM ET (US) I fished all day today w/ friend on a 24 Bayliner, running an 03 9.9 Yamaha w/electric start. We ran 2 Scotty electric downrigggers, radio,GPS and depth sounder w/no problems. I asked him if he had ever had problems with the engine making oil (gas going by the rings)and he said yes, until he put in a hotter thermonstat and hotter spark plug, since then no problems. The 9.9 handled the boat well in the 15-20 mph winds we had today. Good for the fishing also, we had 3 salmon.
JohnM	posted 11-30-2004 11:11 PM ET (US) gss, I just read that reply on another board! The 9.9 moved my Whaler very nicely. Charging system no problems. A friend of mine has a 25' Wellcraft with a large cuddy and it pushes it fine also. Could you get some numbers of the plugs and thermostats? Mine never really made oil...it lost oil!
gss036	posted 12-01-2004 07:47 PM ET (US) Sounds like the guy already committed to another Yamaha. I think they are an excellent motor and several friends who use them. I have a 15 Honda that is about 6-7 years old and had to put in a hotter thermostat. I'll e-mail my buddy and see if he has the numbers off hand.
LHG	posted 12-01-2004 08:10 PM ET (US) It might be worth looking into the Mercury brand new 8 and 9.9HP 4-strokes. They say the 9.9HP Pro Kicker is specifically designed and configured for fishermen, with a Big Foot gearcase, special low vibration 4 blade prop, and power trim option. It weighs 107# with PT. The 8 horse model is only 84#. Both have electric start options, with 6 amp charging.
gss036	posted 12-02-2004 12:20 AM ET (US) JohnM, I got an answer back real quick from my buddy, but not help. Said he went to the local Yamaha dealer and explaineed the problem and they gave him the plugs and thermostat. He doesn't know what the part numbers are. I suppose he could have pulled the plugs, but boat was not handy. Sorry I could not be more help.
JohnM	posted 12-02-2004 08:45 PM ET (US) Thanks for the reply. I got about 4 months to make a decision so it's no rush. Got a kids car motor tore down and taking up my garage now. When that project is finshed, I will be tearing down the 9.9 for a peek.