posted 12-12-2004 12:40 PM ET (US)        

VERADO™ Outboard
Pedestal Mount

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/verado/veradoMount.html

posted 12-12-2004 02:40 PM ET (US)            

Very well done.

posted 12-13-2004 12:19 PM ET (US)            

In the Verado system, I believe that the speed to be used is determined by looking up the preferences stored in memory that were set by the user, then comparing the current position of the engine as indicated by the digital trim sensor, and then generating the proper voltage/current a relay which in turn controls an electric motor. When you hit the trim switch you are probably signaling an interrupt to the processor which then detects the state of the trim switch, and passes the trim switch information on to another process to actuate the motor control relays. The processor also signals the SmartCraft gauge display to jump to the display page for the engine trim indication. The processor probably polls the trim switch line until it notices that it is back to the neutral position, then terminates the process to the relays, which then interrupt the current to the electric motor. Or something like that...I don't really know!

It also might sense how much current the motor was drawing, which would be an indication of the load on the hydraulic rams, and adjust the speed to high if the load was light. A light load would be indicative of the position of the engine, that is, when underway and at high throttle the load would be high so move slowyly.

Or it could even be simpler: if the engine is not running, use high speed. If the engine is running use low speed. You could also build in a protection to prevent the engine being tilted up beyond a certain point if it was running. This would stop you from tilting the engine out of the water while it was running. Those Verado engines are quiet, so that might be a realistic problem to solve!

posted 12-13-2004 11:48 PM ET (US)            

The Yamaha F50 does not have three rams, it has one single large hydraulic cylinder that handles the entire job of tilt and trim. The motor definitely has two rpm settings and is in some manner controlled so that it runs the single cylinder slower in the various down positions for more precise control, then when a certain angle is reached the motor rpm is increased for faster tilt. I've not dissected how Yamaha is doing it, but it does have a sensor for trim. I have a meter reading on the console for that. And the two motor speeds are directly related to the current motor angle.

Yamaha has been using the single cylinder system since at least 1984 on the 40 hp, I was trying to identify a older version recently and went through all the parts manuals I had. The same, or a similar one was also on the 50 hp. Some of those models over the years list as tilt, and some list as tilt and trim. Larger Yamaha's do have the sort of three cylinder system you describe.

I've not measured current draw on the motor. It would not be at all hard for a small two speed solid state speed controller to be incorporated into the relay system.

Unless the Verado has a goto setting for trim what you describe would be a whole lot of overkill.

I sure would find the hydraulic override and what sort of tool it takes. I can think of situations it might be critical to be able to do that. Of course manually tilting up such a heavy motor might be a interesting workout. I have the necessary large blade screwdriver for mine onboard all the time on my Montauk. Without that release you can't budge that motor. It's also something I exercise regularily so it won't corrode tight.

posted 12-18-2004 08:13 AM ET (US)            

It seems to me that if you have a pair of VERADO engines on the transom, you could not run one engine tilted down and one tilted up at the same time. You might want to do this if you had an engine failure. Typically one would raise the dead engine from the water to reduce drag. With a pair of VERADO engines it would seem that the lower unit of the raised engine would begin to arc around when steered and might hit the cowling of the other engine.

Curiously, in the patent the inventors cite the new arrangement as an advantage when one engine is tilted because of the way the tie bar will remain stationary (as the steering axis does not change when the engine is tilted). Perhaps the range of steering is limited so that the engines cannot bang into each other when one is elevated and the other is not.

Also, how will this affect use of the VERADO engine with a conventionally mounted auxiliary. It seems likely that most 6- to 9-HP auxiliary engines will have transom mounts that are conventional, i.e., their steering axis will pivot with the tilt axis. I realize that in most fishing applications the main engine remains in the down position, but if you were trying to "get home" on the auxiliary engine only, you might prefer to tilt the main engine out of the water to reduce drag. I wonder how this will work?

posted 12-18-2004 05:22 PM ET (US)         

Like with Mercury's current 75-250 transom bracket, for twin engine installations, a steering tongue is bolted on, which holds the conventional, rotating, tie bar. The Verado works the same way. I actually saw one engine full tilted, and the other one down. The tiebar accomodates this.

posted 12-18-2004 05:30 PM ET (US)            

It would be interesting to check this out next time aboard a twin Verado powered boat.

The use of a single hydraulic actuator is show in Cetacea Page 77

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage77.html#77-06

posted 12-18-2004 06:02 PM ET (US)            

The closer the motors are spaced together, which is touted as a performance advantage for the slim L6 configuration, it would seem that the greater the range of steering motion could be limited in an emergency operation where one motor is disabled.

In reading the passage in the patent about the prior tie bar being angled relative to horizontal when one motor is tilted up I did not really understand what the problem was and the patent seemed to fall a bit short on describing it. I have a tie bar arranged exactly as shown in the figure of the prior configuration in the patent as do most if not all twin engine configurations. The connections at the end of the tie bar are pivotable and so there is no problem steering the operational motor with the inoperable motor tilted that I can detect.

What happens if the disabled motor is the one connected to the steering assist pump? Does the steering assist pump operate if that motor is switched off? Do you have to leave the ignition on?

posted 12-19-2004 12:07 AM ET (US)            

That is an interesting point on the electric-hydraulic boost pump. I think that system connects directly to the battery for power. It should be workable without the engine running. However, if the electric motor draws considerable current, you would lose the power boost if the battery voltage began to go down.

The Verado steering has already been shown to be adaptable to dual-helm installations and to third-party autopilots.

See:

http://www.nautamatic.com/Manuals/VeradoManVerD.pdf

posted 12-19-2004 12:03 PM ET (US)            

I'll bet that if Mercury is reading this group, that they are not pleased with your outburst.

Mercury would have no business getting angry over questions about the functioning of the equipment they are offering. In fact, if I was contemplating buying this equipment and got such anger back I'd turn and walk out, end of sale for anything from them. I'm the person with the money and have every right to ask about and get straight answers about any question I might have.

I would also say Mercury should not hide behind a alias. I belong to other groups that discuss technical subjects and we always welcome anyone from the manufacturer who can shed light on our questions. As long as they don't get into sales or advertizing.

The stern of outboard boats is designed and equipped around the standard type of steering and tilt arrangement. The geometry of this mount has implications concerning this. We have only brought up some of them.

For instance, on pontoon boats the outboard is mounted on a narrow pod. I think the pod would have to be modifed considerably to clear the motor if it was tilted up while the steering was to one side. And, at least some pontoon boats are using engines of the size of the current Verado. I've seen a number such where I boat. Pontoon boats are a larger market down here than things like large Whalers.

Or, on a Whaler, mount a swim platform. It's a real question if a standard platform would be cleared by a tilted Verado.

Finding out how much of this sort of thing Mercury considered when they designed the motor will tell a lot about the future of that motor. My own experience with all kinds of products is that they are designed primarily with a single use focus. Questions bring out the areas not considered and those that were.

posted 12-21-2004 10:32 AM ET (US)            

I'll repeat what I've said dozens of times at this site--I have absolutely NO brand loyalty when it comes to outboard motors (though I've purchased two new Yamaha four strokes in swift succession for my two Whalers and have been very pleased with both). I ended up with Yamahas because my local dealer, who sells three other brands, suggested them for my classic Whalers, and the fit has been perfect. Maybe he sold them to me because he made more money off the deal...I really don't care. Both motors came with long warranties; I have them 'tuned' every 150 hours or so at the same dealer (which many of you will say is totally unnecessary, and you're probably right); and I change the oil myself every 70 hours. If that same dealer had suggested Mercury motors, I would have gone that route and undoubtedly been very happy as well.

What I really DON'T understand, Larry and a few others, is your almost frantic, often unreasonable, defense of all things related to Mercury outboard motors. I've owned certain items that have evoked in me, because of their incredibly high quality of manufacture, a certain level of brand loyalty--Leica cameras, Browning (made in Belgium) firearms--but unless I were a major shareholder or corporate executive of these companies I couldn't possibly relate to getting all emotional if I heard that someone thought Nikons or Smith & Wessons were better. And Larry, your patriotic plea to buy Mercury because by doing so you're buying American is flawed; in fact, I learned from YOU that Mercury has used Japanese Yamaha powerheads for decades!

Finally, I'm sick and tired of reading accusations that anyone who dares to criticize Mercury outboards is a troll.
This kind of stuff truly borders on the paranoid. Many longtime CW members have good faith reasons to prefer motors other than those manufactured by Mercury, and when they discuss this matter it is totally counterproductive, not to mention ill-mannered, to accuse them of purposefully disrupting this website.

It gives me no great pleasure to post these comments, Larry. I still consider myself a relative novice about Boston Whalers, trailer boating, and outboard motors (even though I've put almost 600 hours on my two Whalers over the past two and one half years), and I've learned a great deal about these subjects from you since I became an active CW member. I have a great deal of respect for your motorboating knowledge and experience, but your radical, sometimes irrational statements whenever outboard motors are the topic of conversation make me wonder about your expertise in other areas. In the interest of full disclosure, do you have some particular ownership interest in the Mercury company that we all should know about?

posted 12-21-2004 10:42 AM ET (US)            

I won't be buying a Verado or an E-Tec any time soon for exactly the reasons stated by Tony above. It may well be they will be great, innovative motors and I hope that's the case, but we'll see.

But for the record, Suzuki has been making four stroke outboards for years. Yamaha has been making HPDI outboards for years. Honda has been making four stroke outboards for decades.

Tony,

posted 12-21-2004 06:34 PM ET (US)            

Merry Christmas, dude. It's the strange ones like you and me that keep us all interested, you know...