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Author Topic:   MONTAUK 17: Re-Power with New Outboard

fisher801 posted 02-21-2005 05:52 PM ET (US)
Hello everyone,
I'm new to this site and have a few questions about choosing a proper outboard for a 1977 Classic Montauk 17. I've been doing a good deal of research and have received some good reviews about Evinrude's new E-TEC outboards. Now some may wonder why I am considering a refined two-stroke. Well, here is what I have come up with: the new E-TEC motors are EPA emission compliant and actually have better emissions ratings than some of the comparable four-strokes. They are lighter than most comparable four-strokes. They have no traditional "break-in" periods. It is because of these advantages I've have a good vibe about re-powering with Evinrude's new E-TEC outboards, which brings me to another question that someone else may be able to answer. And that question is what horsepower rating should I choose for the best overall balance and performance on a Montauk 17?
I currently have a malfunctional (not to mention unreliable and old) 1977 Mercury 70-HP Thunderbolt that came with the boat.
Joe Kriz posted 02-21-2005 06:19 PM ET (US)
fisher801,
Welcome to this site.
A neighbor of yours has installed a new 90-HP E-TEC on the transom of his Montauk and says it is perfect. Many other people feel the same way about the new E-TEC's.
Here is a link to ratherwhalering's Montauk.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 02-25-2005 10:52 PM ET (US)
Hmm.. Are you shilling for Evinrude?? LOL. Oh well I guess I would like to ask for the fourth time for some imput on re-powering myself on a Montauk.. About two years ago I posted about getting a new motor. Well it did not happen. Now this year I took a last ride and took my 1988 Evinrude 90-HP apart. Lots of damage at 1800 hours use and two prior VRO seizes before I ran 50-1 in 1993. What is the word on the choices of motors for a 17 Montauk..Pros..Cons..
90/75 Honda (Too Heavy Nice but NIX)
90 Yamaha
90 Mercury Carb Classic
90 Johnson Carb
90 Evinrude
60 Mercury 60 4 stroke
Or any others like the Honda 50 four-stroke/Merc 50 four-stroke
75's that aren't too heavy for a Montauk
I do not trust any oil injection except maybe Yamahas. Nix To OMC oil injection. If I bought a new Johnson Carb model it would be running 50-1 pre-mix.
Warranty is no good any way--One-year One-month. I have had experience with that. "Failure of a seal." I was a sucker for a extended warrenty of $350. Oh well, another story. Now some facts. The V4 OMC is probably the most powerfull motor. No substitute for CUBIC INCHES at 1600 and 1700 CC these are power houses. V4 design and four cylinder.
The Yamaha is 3 cylinder. Very good response on this one just expensive. Less CC then the OMC V4 and I suspect less true horsepower. Take off. What ever. Goes back to the "C I Rules" idea.
The carburetor Mercury is 3 cylinder and about 1500-CC. I am leaning toward a new one as they are cheapest, but I hear they are not good at idling, trolling, and are hard to start. Well, my beloved Evinrude was hard to start at times, stalled running trotlines too. So it is a two-stroke. Yes a four-stroke will do real good there with trolling.
Optimax and Ficht are getting high marks for burning up and trouble. I doubt they will be round in ten years. By then they will have switched to four-strokes.
I am scared of motors I can't work on!
Lets here from you!
LHG posted 02-25-2005 11:06 PM ET (US)
I have been told by a large Mercury dealer that the Mercury Classic 2-stroke 90's are already finished production, not that there aren't plenty around. But don't wait too long. This is almost a 100-HP engine, and you are wrong to assume that Mercury's oil injection is not bulletproof. The tank is also onboard the engine, a great detail that OMC had missed for years until the E-TEC. I understand the rough idle situation just requires a proper low speed jet adjustment.
We can't help you on the technolgy you want, or how much you have to spend. The E-TEC seems like the "clean" winner, but it won't run with the two-stroke Mercury or Johnson performance wise. It should hold its own with the other clean engines, however.
Strongly suggest you go to Whaler.com and check out the performance graphs on the engine options for the 170 Montauk. Very revealing.
frontier posted 02-26-2005 02:04 AM ET (US)
I think the 90 HP Yamaha 2-Stroke is perfect for a classic 17. Proven quality, light weight, lots of power and good fuel economy. Just talked to a Yamaha and Evinrude dealer. He said he recommends the E-TEC mainly because the Yamahas are in short supply and he's got to sell something to stay in business!
1Chavez posted 02-26-2005 04:39 AM ET (US)
From what I've heard, the Mercs are HP rated at the prop and a high percentage are producing more power than the rating (of course a Merc dealer). I have a 1993 70 Yamaha on a 1989 15-foot and love it. It is not the fastest 15-foot Whaler on the bay (there is a Johnrude that slowly walks away from me), but it is by far the most refined two-stroke motor. If you are looking for all out speed/power, I would go Mercury, but for reliability it is definately Yamaha. Personally I stay away from Johnson/Evinrude due to a bad experience with the original 70-HP on the Whaler. Prior to the 15, I had a 13 with a 40 Yamaha, also a great engine. They are pricey, but they are also a great engine.
-Rich
erik selis posted 02-26-2005 05:05 AM ET (US)
I have a 90-hp two-stroke carburetor Mercury on my 170 Montauk. I'm basically very pleased with this engine, especially its performance. I compare this engine to a stereotype image of certain beautiful women...hard time getting up in the morning, messy, not exactly inexpensive in maintaining and running but no lack of performance.
After reading about and looking at the 90hp E-TEC, I think this engine would be perfect for the 17-ft Montauk.
Another option would be the DF70 Suzuki.
Erik
JBCornwell posted 02-26-2005 08:07 AM ET (US)
Classic Montauks perform very nicely with the Johnson-Suzuki DF70 EFI 4 stroke.
WOT will be about 39-MPH with a 18" pitch SS prop at 5800 rpm. That gives up 2-3mph to a carbed 90-HP.
It will use about half the fuel of a 90-HP carbed engine, make about 20% as much noise at slow to medium speeds, start on the first twist of the key every time and idle so quiet that all you can hear is the telltale stream hitting the water.
I mounted one on my 1980 Montauk, Sunshine III (now RyanWhaler's) and was very happy with it.
Red sky at night. . .
JB
jimh posted 02-26-2005 08:32 AM ET (US)
[Moved this thread about re-powering and performance to the PERFORMANCE forum.]
jimh posted 02-26-2005 08:39 AM ET (US)
Saying you had damage after 1,800 hours of use is not exactly an indictment of an engine. I'd say it is more of an endorsement.
The Yamaha two-stroke engines all seem to be smaller displacement than OMC or Mercury engines of similar horsepower.
The four-cylinder, four-stroke 70-HP Suzuki or Johnson engine outboard is very strongly endorsed by Montauk owners who have them on their transom.
The 17-foot classic Boston Whaler hull is so often discussed as a candidate for re-powering that there is a separate article in the Reference section on just this topic:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/16-17/repower.html
The article includes links to dozens of previous discussions as well.
RocketMan posted 02-26-2005 09:01 AM ET (US)
This forum contains just about all the information that there is in the world about repowering a 16-17' Whaler between the reference section and search function. You would be hard pressed to find a more informative, bias-objective source to discuss and say your own thoughts out loud.
I'm repowering a classic 16 right now and went to the Miami Boat Show last week and got all the brochures, pulled all the cowls, got prices, etc. There are so many choices and all of them have their upside. Its almost gotten like stereo equipment, you end up buying on features. We are lucky in that regard.
I currently have a 1985 90 Yamaha two-stroke on the transom. This engine has been like a brother to me and new ones are still available. Currenty my head is listening to all the options out there; four-stroke, EFI, DFI, etc. But my heart is with a new 2-stroke 90 Yamaha. Decisions, decisions, decisions . . .
Life is very good at the moment....
jimbob28 posted 02-26-2005 12:06 PM ET (US)
Hi fisher801,
I repowered my '77 Montauk last October with a 90 Hp. Etec for all the reasons that you state. I was replacing a '77, 70 Hp. Johnson that had over 3000 hrs. on it.
I love the new Etec. It runs great, has lots of power, very efficient with fuel, and very quiet.
It is 100 lb. heavier than the old motor and I would not want it to be any heavier.
I only have 25 hours on the new motor so I can't tell you if it will last 3000 hrs. or not. Like buying a new car, you won't know how good it was until you wear it out.
RocketMan posted 02-26-2005 04:06 PM ET (US)
If I buy with my head, it'll be the 90 E-Tec. If I buy with my heart, it'll be the old Yamaha 90 2-stroke. Got another few weeks to decide.
nytugcapt posted 02-26-2005 08:13 PM ET (US)
I just got back from the FL Keys. I did not bring my 16' this time because it is in middle of a repower. I rented a boat while I was down there. I had to rent a pontoon boat because it was the only boat in the rental fleet with an e-tec and I wanted to see the performance first hand. Holy @#$%. The engine was as quiet as you could ever want.(Although the pontoon boat has a back seat that deflects noise) The performance was incredibly smooth. Power was great. The pontoon boat was 23'with a 75hp e-tec. I went out at 9am went around the backcountry of Islamorada over to Long Key out under the Channel 5 Bridge. Most of the time we were slow cruising, with a few fast runs. When I returned the boat at 3pm I had used 4.8 gallons. Now, before you do the math, we were at the beach anchored for about 2 hours, but still very economical. The owner of the rentals said he is replacing all of his engines with e-tecs. I wish that I could have rented one of the flats boats with that engine to get a better idea of how it would be on the Whaler, but I was very impressed and would love to have the 90 e-tec on mine.
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 02-26-2005 08:32 PM ET (US)
jimh that 1800 hours is a testement of a tough motor that had seized twice over ten years ago..otherwise it would still be going strong or at least good to go for a rebuilt.. I liked the V4 I had..It was a powerhouse as I said. I wish I had the cash a few years back to pick up a brand new 88 special for about 3500 dollars and put it in a hole till I need it.. I am considering all options I may even get a rebuilt power head and keep on keeping on.
I posted on iboats site about my motor and got a lot of good suggestions. For what I am hearing the hard starting and trolling of a new Merc carb 90 is not a big deal.
For a look at a tough old Evinrude see my page

http://trotliner.tripod.com/Evinrude.html
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 02-26-2005 09:32 PM ET (US)
LHG.. Just saw those graphs.. Very good info. gives a good baseline on what these newer motors will do. I would think the sppeds would be a bit higher on the older Montauks as the hulls are not as wide. Thanks.
Whaler Lover2 posted 02-27-2005 10:00 AM ET (US)
I think I am going to run this season with my old V4 and save some $$$, and pick up a 115 E-Tec next winter. Cant beat the warranty, economy, power and weight combo. Bombardier is clearly behind these engines 150%
The most bang for the buck is clearly the Johnson 90 or 115 carb and the Mercury 90. I dont care for the Merc 115
jimh posted 02-27-2005 10:27 AM ET (US)
The Evinrude tear down and re-build page is very interesting!
Thanks for the link.
CHRISWEIGHT posted 02-27-2005 10:45 AM ET (US)
For what its worth we have a mercury 90 elpto 1996 and it starts first time every time. idles fine and after one years use with ngk surface discharge plugs there were no diposits at all!
pushes a 1993 16SL at 44mph by gps and is not killing us on fuel costs even at $8 a gallon equivalent in the uk.
fourdfish posted 02-27-2005 11:03 AM ET (US)
You can't go wrong with the E-TEC. I bought mine in Oct and think it's great. Even though some Merc people here are down
on the E-TEC, the word is getting around and people are ordering them up. That free extended 7yr warrenty is available until April.

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Author	Topic: MONTAUK 17: Re-Power with New Outboard
fisher801	posted 02-21-2005 05:52 PM ET (US) Hello everyone, I'm new to this site and have a few questions about choosing a proper outboard for a 1977 Classic Montauk 17. I've been doing a good deal of research and have received some good reviews about Evinrude's new E-TEC outboards. Now some may wonder why I am considering a refined two-stroke. Well, here is what I have come up with: the new E-TEC motors are EPA emission compliant and actually have better emissions ratings than some of the comparable four-strokes. They are lighter than most comparable four-strokes. They have no traditional "break-in" periods. It is because of these advantages I've have a good vibe about re-powering with Evinrude's new E-TEC outboards, which brings me to another question that someone else may be able to answer. And that question is what horsepower rating should I choose for the best overall balance and performance on a Montauk 17? I currently have a malfunctional (not to mention unreliable and old) 1977 Mercury 70-HP Thunderbolt that came with the boat.
Joe Kriz	posted 02-21-2005 06:19 PM ET (US) fisher801, Welcome to this site. A neighbor of yours has installed a new 90-HP E-TEC on the transom of his Montauk and says it is perfect. Many other people feel the same way about the new E-TEC's. Here is a link to ratherwhalering's Montauk. http://photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/
The Chesapeake Explorer	posted 02-25-2005 10:52 PM ET (US) Hmm.. Are you shilling for Evinrude?? LOL. Oh well I guess I would like to ask for the fourth time for some imput on re-powering myself on a Montauk.. About two years ago I posted about getting a new motor. Well it did not happen. Now this year I took a last ride and took my 1988 Evinrude 90-HP apart. Lots of damage at 1800 hours use and two prior VRO seizes before I ran 50-1 in 1993. What is the word on the choices of motors for a 17 Montauk..Pros..Cons.. 90/75 Honda (Too Heavy Nice but NIX) 90 Yamaha 90 Mercury Carb Classic 90 Johnson Carb 90 Evinrude 60 Mercury 60 4 stroke Or any others like the Honda 50 four-stroke/Merc 50 four-stroke 75's that aren't too heavy for a Montauk I do not trust any oil injection except maybe Yamahas. Nix To OMC oil injection. If I bought a new Johnson Carb model it would be running 50-1 pre-mix. Warranty is no good any way--One-year One-month. I have had experience with that. "Failure of a seal." I was a sucker for a extended warrenty of $350. Oh well, another story. Now some facts. The V4 OMC is probably the most powerfull motor. No substitute for CUBIC INCHES at 1600 and 1700 CC these are power houses. V4 design and four cylinder. The Yamaha is 3 cylinder. Very good response on this one just expensive. Less CC then the OMC V4 and I suspect less true horsepower. Take off. What ever. Goes back to the "C I Rules" idea. The carburetor Mercury is 3 cylinder and about 1500-CC. I am leaning toward a new one as they are cheapest, but I hear they are not good at idling, trolling, and are hard to start. Well, my beloved Evinrude was hard to start at times, stalled running trotlines too. So it is a two-stroke. Yes a four-stroke will do real good there with trolling. Optimax and Ficht are getting high marks for burning up and trouble. I doubt they will be round in ten years. By then they will have switched to four-strokes. I am scared of motors I can't work on! Lets here from you!
LHG	posted 02-25-2005 11:06 PM ET (US) I have been told by a large Mercury dealer that the Mercury Classic 2-stroke 90's are already finished production, not that there aren't plenty around. But don't wait too long. This is almost a 100-HP engine, and you are wrong to assume that Mercury's oil injection is not bulletproof. The tank is also onboard the engine, a great detail that OMC had missed for years until the E-TEC. I understand the rough idle situation just requires a proper low speed jet adjustment. We can't help you on the technolgy you want, or how much you have to spend. The E-TEC seems like the "clean" winner, but it won't run with the two-stroke Mercury or Johnson performance wise. It should hold its own with the other clean engines, however. Strongly suggest you go to Whaler.com and check out the performance graphs on the engine options for the 170 Montauk. Very revealing.
frontier	posted 02-26-2005 02:04 AM ET (US) I think the 90 HP Yamaha 2-Stroke is perfect for a classic 17. Proven quality, light weight, lots of power and good fuel economy. Just talked to a Yamaha and Evinrude dealer. He said he recommends the E-TEC mainly because the Yamahas are in short supply and he's got to sell something to stay in business!
1Chavez	posted 02-26-2005 04:39 AM ET (US) From what I've heard, the Mercs are HP rated at the prop and a high percentage are producing more power than the rating (of course a Merc dealer). I have a 1993 70 Yamaha on a 1989 15-foot and love it. It is not the fastest 15-foot Whaler on the bay (there is a Johnrude that slowly walks away from me), but it is by far the most refined two-stroke motor. If you are looking for all out speed/power, I would go Mercury, but for reliability it is definately Yamaha. Personally I stay away from Johnson/Evinrude due to a bad experience with the original 70-HP on the Whaler. Prior to the 15, I had a 13 with a 40 Yamaha, also a great engine. They are pricey, but they are also a great engine. -Rich
erik selis	posted 02-26-2005 05:05 AM ET (US) I have a 90-hp two-stroke carburetor Mercury on my 170 Montauk. I'm basically very pleased with this engine, especially its performance. I compare this engine to a stereotype image of certain beautiful women...hard time getting up in the morning, messy, not exactly inexpensive in maintaining and running but no lack of performance. After reading about and looking at the 90hp E-TEC, I think this engine would be perfect for the 17-ft Montauk. Another option would be the DF70 Suzuki. Erik
JBCornwell	posted 02-26-2005 08:07 AM ET (US) Classic Montauks perform very nicely with the Johnson-Suzuki DF70 EFI 4 stroke. WOT will be about 39-MPH with a 18" pitch SS prop at 5800 rpm. That gives up 2-3mph to a carbed 90-HP. It will use about half the fuel of a 90-HP carbed engine, make about 20% as much noise at slow to medium speeds, start on the first twist of the key every time and idle so quiet that all you can hear is the telltale stream hitting the water. I mounted one on my 1980 Montauk, Sunshine III (now RyanWhaler's) and was very happy with it. Red sky at night. . . JB
jimh	posted 02-26-2005 08:32 AM ET (US) [Moved this thread about re-powering and performance to the PERFORMANCE forum.]
jimh	posted 02-26-2005 08:39 AM ET (US) Saying you had damage after 1,800 hours of use is not exactly an indictment of an engine. I'd say it is more of an endorsement. The Yamaha two-stroke engines all seem to be smaller displacement than OMC or Mercury engines of similar horsepower. The four-cylinder, four-stroke 70-HP Suzuki or Johnson engine outboard is very strongly endorsed by Montauk owners who have them on their transom. The 17-foot classic Boston Whaler hull is so often discussed as a candidate for re-powering that there is a separate article in the Reference section on just this topic: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/16-17/repower.html The article includes links to dozens of previous discussions as well.
RocketMan	posted 02-26-2005 09:01 AM ET (US) This forum contains just about all the information that there is in the world about repowering a 16-17' Whaler between the reference section and search function. You would be hard pressed to find a more informative, bias-objective source to discuss and say your own thoughts out loud. I'm repowering a classic 16 right now and went to the Miami Boat Show last week and got all the brochures, pulled all the cowls, got prices, etc. There are so many choices and all of them have their upside. Its almost gotten like stereo equipment, you end up buying on features. We are lucky in that regard. I currently have a 1985 90 Yamaha two-stroke on the transom. This engine has been like a brother to me and new ones are still available. Currenty my head is listening to all the options out there; four-stroke, EFI, DFI, etc. But my heart is with a new 2-stroke 90 Yamaha. Decisions, decisions, decisions . . . Life is very good at the moment....
jimbob28	posted 02-26-2005 12:06 PM ET (US) Hi fisher801, I repowered my '77 Montauk last October with a 90 Hp. Etec for all the reasons that you state. I was replacing a '77, 70 Hp. Johnson that had over 3000 hrs. on it. I love the new Etec. It runs great, has lots of power, very efficient with fuel, and very quiet. It is 100 lb. heavier than the old motor and I would not want it to be any heavier. I only have 25 hours on the new motor so I can't tell you if it will last 3000 hrs. or not. Like buying a new car, you won't know how good it was until you wear it out.
RocketMan	posted 02-26-2005 04:06 PM ET (US) If I buy with my head, it'll be the 90 E-Tec. If I buy with my heart, it'll be the old Yamaha 90 2-stroke. Got another few weeks to decide.
nytugcapt	posted 02-26-2005 08:13 PM ET (US) I just got back from the FL Keys. I did not bring my 16' this time because it is in middle of a repower. I rented a boat while I was down there. I had to rent a pontoon boat because it was the only boat in the rental fleet with an e-tec and I wanted to see the performance first hand. Holy @#$%. The engine was as quiet as you could ever want.(Although the pontoon boat has a back seat that deflects noise) The performance was incredibly smooth. Power was great. The pontoon boat was 23'with a 75hp e-tec. I went out at 9am went around the backcountry of Islamorada over to Long Key out under the Channel 5 Bridge. Most of the time we were slow cruising, with a few fast runs. When I returned the boat at 3pm I had used 4.8 gallons. Now, before you do the math, we were at the beach anchored for about 2 hours, but still very economical. The owner of the rentals said he is replacing all of his engines with e-tecs. I wish that I could have rented one of the flats boats with that engine to get a better idea of how it would be on the Whaler, but I was very impressed and would love to have the 90 e-tec on mine.
The Chesapeake Explorer	posted 02-26-2005 08:32 PM ET (US) jimh that 1800 hours is a testement of a tough motor that had seized twice over ten years ago..otherwise it would still be going strong or at least good to go for a rebuilt.. I liked the V4 I had..It was a powerhouse as I said. I wish I had the cash a few years back to pick up a brand new 88 special for about 3500 dollars and put it in a hole till I need it.. I am considering all options I may even get a rebuilt power head and keep on keeping on. I posted on iboats site about my motor and got a lot of good suggestions. For what I am hearing the hard starting and trolling of a new Merc carb 90 is not a big deal. For a look at a tough old Evinrude see my page http://trotliner.tripod.com/Evinrude.html
The Chesapeake Explorer	posted 02-26-2005 09:32 PM ET (US) LHG.. Just saw those graphs.. Very good info. gives a good baseline on what these newer motors will do. I would think the sppeds would be a bit higher on the older Montauks as the hulls are not as wide. Thanks.
Whaler Lover2	posted 02-27-2005 10:00 AM ET (US) I think I am going to run this season with my old V4 and save some $$$, and pick up a 115 E-Tec next winter. Cant beat the warranty, economy, power and weight combo. Bombardier is clearly behind these engines 150% The most bang for the buck is clearly the Johnson 90 or 115 carb and the Mercury 90. I dont care for the Merc 115
jimh	posted 02-27-2005 10:27 AM ET (US) The Evinrude tear down and re-build page is very interesting! Thanks for the link.
CHRISWEIGHT	posted 02-27-2005 10:45 AM ET (US) For what its worth we have a mercury 90 elpto 1996 and it starts first time every time. idles fine and after one years use with ngk surface discharge plugs there were no diposits at all! pushes a 1993 16SL at 44mph by gps and is not killing us on fuel costs even at $8 a gallon equivalent in the uk.
fourdfish	posted 02-27-2005 11:03 AM ET (US) You can't go wrong with the E-TEC. I bought mine in Oct and think it's great. Even though some Merc people here are down on the E-TEC, the word is getting around and people are ordering them up. That free extended 7yr warrenty is available until April.