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Author Topic:   New Outboards and Programmable ECUs

jeffs22outrage posted 03-24-2005 10:32 AM ET (US)

Jims article on digital gauge systems made me think about cars and boats sharing technology. Now I have many friends who have built up Hondas and Subarus. Because of the modified nature of the cars they run either a piggy back ECU or a modded Factory ECU. These allow them with their laptops to alter fuel and timing curves, change boost maps (on forced induction cars), change VTEC engagement RPM points on Honda Motors, see all of their engine diagnostics and read outs, change rev limiters, and more. Now has anyone tried this on their outboards yet. Honda uses the same blocks and ECU's on their outboards as their cars, so in theory you should be able to do the same right? Or what about reflashing your ECU? Has anyone done that? All of this could mean using a smaller lighter motor and getting it to perform like the bigger motor. This is what the REAL sport compact enthusiasts are doing with cars. Make a 4 cly. more powerful than the 8 cly.

Now granted on unmodified normally aspirated motors the most increase in power I have seen in person was about 20hp "at the wheels" on a Dyno. But with forced induction making its way into outboards now this could be something you start seeing more of. Reflashes on ECUs for forced induction motors will gain 35 - 50 hp at the wheels.
Here are the most common Honda piggy back programmable ECU's.
http://www.hondata.com/
http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
http://www.hondata.com
http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
Just a thought....
jeffs22outrage posted 03-24-2005 10:35 AM ET (US)
http://www.hondata.com/
http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
Teak Oil posted 03-24-2005 06:14 PM ET (US)
I am sure it can be done on the Hondas because, like you said, the ECU is the same and it probably would not be difficult to connect the ECU to a tuning device like a laptop or a hand held computer.
I am sure someone has figured out how to change the fuel curve and boost on the Verado, since its a Merc and it has the factory supercharger. Add some 110 racegas and I am sure it would be EASY to make a 275 Verado go to 325hp. More than that and you are on borrowed time probably.
If Yamaha uses the same ECU as on their bikes it would not be hard to tap into that.
I wouldnt mess with an E-tec. It probably wouldnt take much to burn one up, NASA pistons or not. Two strokes are much more sensitive to fuel ratio and cylinder temps.
merc125 posted 03-24-2005 06:38 PM ET (US)
I believe a company called "Brucato" makes a hi performance programable ECU for merc 2 stroke. If you start fooling with this stuff, you should probably have deep pockets, and towing insurance. MartyD
merc125 posted 03-24-2005 06:41 PM ET (US)
Don't forget it will ruin the emission rating of the motor. MartyD
LHG posted 03-24-2005 07:51 PM ET (US)
My guess is that if anybody thinks Mercury spent $100,000,000 developing a completely new family of dual overhead cam engine blocks that will only develop a puny 275HP, you're kidding yourself. To have an engine line completely tapped out in it's first year of introduction would be foolish. I have heard there are 300Hp versions easily produced, and I'll bet there is room for more displacement as needed. It's just that now, nobody has anything that puts out more than 275 , (except for the Merc 2.5 liter EFI racing versions @ 280HP) no matter what they label it. It seems that demand for a 400 HP outboard would be minimal. I would assume that the Japanese companies will bring out bigger, heavier, true 300 HP 4-strokes in a year or so, (supercharged?) and Mercury can easily meet that competition with some form of the Verado, as needed. Mercury has always been the horsepower and performance leader, and I'm sure plans to stay that way
where2 posted 03-24-2005 11:25 PM ET (US)
Anyone who thinks an E-tec can't be hot rodded should note that the factory has modified them to run on the following fuels: JP-4, JP-5, JP-8, Diesel, F-76, DF-1, DF-2, Kerosene and gasoline. http://gov.evinrude.com/communications/pdf/EVINRUDE_MFE_Final.pdf
My favorite line from the brochure "Simply flip a switch to change fuels without compromising performance".
Now, if you can modify it to run on such varied fuels, it would seem to me that you could swing the timing and fuel maps to run on 110 octane race gas, and a bottle of nitrous, if you were into that sort of thing...
jimh posted 03-25-2005 08:17 AM ET (US)
I wonder if the E-TEC is a good candidate for re-programming. I see several problems:
--the EMM controls just about everything on the engine, including all of the electrical power generation. It is so tightly integrated that is would be hard to reverse engineer all of those functions.
--the actual hardware does not appear to use any sort of socket-mounted memory component. There is no "chip" to remove and replace. Replacing surface mount components on a multi-layer circuit board is beyond the skill level of most electronic technicians. Special de-soldering equipment and microscopes are needed to perform this work. It would be extraordinarily difficult and expensive for a outboard owner or mechanic to acquire the hardware needed. Becoming proficient in this technique requires practice.
Even if all of these obstacles could be overcome, the algorithm used in the E-TEC is quite sophisticated. It uses a sequencing of the combustion mixture among cylinders when in transition to normal combustion from stratified charge mode.
Also, I think that outboard motors are already tuned for very strong performance. If there were extra horsepower available just by changing a few bites in the memory, I think the outboard makers would be glad to offer them.
BlackMax posted 03-25-2005 03:58 PM ET (US)
The high performance and racing versions of the Verado are probably soon due for that sector of the market, and will show what a truly remarkable engine it is. Along the lines of what Jeff is suggesting, the in line 6 Verado, even at 2.6 liters, has a lot more built-in potential. 325 HP and up should be available soon. The engine has an ECU controlled boost bleed-off valve, and currently at WOT the recreational models are bleeding off considerable boost.
The water cooled supercharger has a lot more potential than is currently being utilized.
My guess is the hi-performance versions may remove the intake baffle, giving the engine more performance oriented sound, and turn up the blower boost, along with re-mapping the chip for increased fuel flow. I have heard rumors that the engine could probably put out close to 400HP in full racing version.
None of this would have much relevance to their recreational application on Boston Whalers.
Peter posted 03-26-2005 09:00 AM ET (US)
As there are lighter and more fuel efficient alternatives to the Verado design, I wonder whether the Verado will have much success in the racing circuit. From what I can tell, the Verado isn't creating much excitement in the high speed bass boat environment due to its high weight and fuel consumption at WOT and I think those same concerns would apply to the light weight racing rigs.
Perhaps the Verado design will be used in offshore racing where transom weight is less critical. However, I believe that the design's less fuel efficient operation at WOT will hamper its success in light of the lighter and more fuel efficient alternatives.
Based on the production E-TEC V6 output, it wouldn't be difficult to produce an unstressed, regular gas burning 325 HP 4.4L V8 outboard weighing no more than the 275 Verado with the same or better fuel consumption. In a racing configuration, I think that 400 HP wouldn't be terribly difficult to achieve with far greater reliability than in a 2.6L 4-stroke, supercharged design. It's my recollection that the V8 OMC still holds the top speed record for an outboard motor propelled boat.
seahorse posted 03-26-2005 02:24 PM ET (US)

Peter,
From 1985 to 1995 the then OMC had the 4.0L V8 block that put out 300hp. In race trim it was well over 400hp. Of course it used many times the fuel that an E-TEC would use of the same hp.
an86carrera posted 03-26-2005 08:40 PM ET (US)
I understand that the 200hp Ficht could be reprogrammed to 225 at DFI but they won't due to some aggreement with OMC?

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Author	Topic: New Outboards and Programmable ECUs
jeffs22outrage	posted 03-24-2005 10:32 AM ET (US) Jims article on digital gauge systems made me think about cars and boats sharing technology. Now I have many friends who have built up Hondas and Subarus. Because of the modified nature of the cars they run either a piggy back ECU or a modded Factory ECU. These allow them with their laptops to alter fuel and timing curves, change boost maps (on forced induction cars), change VTEC engagement RPM points on Honda Motors, see all of their engine diagnostics and read outs, change rev limiters, and more. Now has anyone tried this on their outboards yet. Honda uses the same blocks and ECU's on their outboards as their cars, so in theory you should be able to do the same right? Or what about reflashing your ECU? Has anyone done that? All of this could mean using a smaller lighter motor and getting it to perform like the bigger motor. This is what the REAL sport compact enthusiasts are doing with cars. Make a 4 cly. more powerful than the 8 cly. Now granted on unmodified normally aspirated motors the most increase in power I have seen in person was about 20hp "at the wheels" on a Dyno. But with forced induction making its way into outboards now this could be something you start seeing more of. Reflashes on ECUs for forced induction motors will gain 35 - 50 hp at the wheels. Here are the most common Honda piggy back programmable ECU's. http://www.hondata.com/ http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp http://www.hondata.com http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp Just a thought....
jeffs22outrage	posted 03-24-2005 10:35 AM ET (US) http://www.hondata.com/ http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
Teak Oil	posted 03-24-2005 06:14 PM ET (US) I am sure it can be done on the Hondas because, like you said, the ECU is the same and it probably would not be difficult to connect the ECU to a tuning device like a laptop or a hand held computer. I am sure someone has figured out how to change the fuel curve and boost on the Verado, since its a Merc and it has the factory supercharger. Add some 110 racegas and I am sure it would be EASY to make a 275 Verado go to 325hp. More than that and you are on borrowed time probably. If Yamaha uses the same ECU as on their bikes it would not be hard to tap into that. I wouldnt mess with an E-tec. It probably wouldnt take much to burn one up, NASA pistons or not. Two strokes are much more sensitive to fuel ratio and cylinder temps.
merc125	posted 03-24-2005 06:38 PM ET (US) I believe a company called "Brucato" makes a hi performance programable ECU for merc 2 stroke. If you start fooling with this stuff, you should probably have deep pockets, and towing insurance. MartyD
merc125	posted 03-24-2005 06:41 PM ET (US) Don't forget it will ruin the emission rating of the motor. MartyD
LHG	posted 03-24-2005 07:51 PM ET (US) My guess is that if anybody thinks Mercury spent $100,000,000 developing a completely new family of dual overhead cam engine blocks that will only develop a puny 275HP, you're kidding yourself. To have an engine line completely tapped out in it's first year of introduction would be foolish. I have heard there are 300Hp versions easily produced, and I'll bet there is room for more displacement as needed. It's just that now, nobody has anything that puts out more than 275 , (except for the Merc 2.5 liter EFI racing versions @ 280HP) no matter what they label it. It seems that demand for a 400 HP outboard would be minimal. I would assume that the Japanese companies will bring out bigger, heavier, true 300 HP 4-strokes in a year or so, (supercharged?) and Mercury can easily meet that competition with some form of the Verado, as needed. Mercury has always been the horsepower and performance leader, and I'm sure plans to stay that way
where2	posted 03-24-2005 11:25 PM ET (US) Anyone who thinks an E-tec can't be hot rodded should note that the factory has modified them to run on the following fuels: JP-4, JP-5, JP-8, Diesel, F-76, DF-1, DF-2, Kerosene and gasoline. http://gov.evinrude.com/communications/pdf/EVINRUDE_MFE_Final.pdf My favorite line from the brochure "Simply flip a switch to change fuels without compromising performance". Now, if you can modify it to run on such varied fuels, it would seem to me that you could swing the timing and fuel maps to run on 110 octane race gas, and a bottle of nitrous, if you were into that sort of thing...
jimh	posted 03-25-2005 08:17 AM ET (US) I wonder if the E-TEC is a good candidate for re-programming. I see several problems: --the EMM controls just about everything on the engine, including all of the electrical power generation. It is so tightly integrated that is would be hard to reverse engineer all of those functions. --the actual hardware does not appear to use any sort of socket-mounted memory component. There is no "chip" to remove and replace. Replacing surface mount components on a multi-layer circuit board is beyond the skill level of most electronic technicians. Special de-soldering equipment and microscopes are needed to perform this work. It would be extraordinarily difficult and expensive for a outboard owner or mechanic to acquire the hardware needed. Becoming proficient in this technique requires practice. Even if all of these obstacles could be overcome, the algorithm used in the E-TEC is quite sophisticated. It uses a sequencing of the combustion mixture among cylinders when in transition to normal combustion from stratified charge mode. Also, I think that outboard motors are already tuned for very strong performance. If there were extra horsepower available just by changing a few bites in the memory, I think the outboard makers would be glad to offer them.
BlackMax	posted 03-25-2005 03:58 PM ET (US) The high performance and racing versions of the Verado are probably soon due for that sector of the market, and will show what a truly remarkable engine it is. Along the lines of what Jeff is suggesting, the in line 6 Verado, even at 2.6 liters, has a lot more built-in potential. 325 HP and up should be available soon. The engine has an ECU controlled boost bleed-off valve, and currently at WOT the recreational models are bleeding off considerable boost. The water cooled supercharger has a lot more potential than is currently being utilized. My guess is the hi-performance versions may remove the intake baffle, giving the engine more performance oriented sound, and turn up the blower boost, along with re-mapping the chip for increased fuel flow. I have heard rumors that the engine could probably put out close to 400HP in full racing version. None of this would have much relevance to their recreational application on Boston Whalers.
Peter	posted 03-26-2005 09:00 AM ET (US) As there are lighter and more fuel efficient alternatives to the Verado design, I wonder whether the Verado will have much success in the racing circuit. From what I can tell, the Verado isn't creating much excitement in the high speed bass boat environment due to its high weight and fuel consumption at WOT and I think those same concerns would apply to the light weight racing rigs. Perhaps the Verado design will be used in offshore racing where transom weight is less critical. However, I believe that the design's less fuel efficient operation at WOT will hamper its success in light of the lighter and more fuel efficient alternatives. Based on the production E-TEC V6 output, it wouldn't be difficult to produce an unstressed, regular gas burning 325 HP 4.4L V8 outboard weighing no more than the 275 Verado with the same or better fuel consumption. In a racing configuration, I think that 400 HP wouldn't be terribly difficult to achieve with far greater reliability than in a 2.6L 4-stroke, supercharged design. It's my recollection that the V8 OMC still holds the top speed record for an outboard motor propelled boat.
seahorse	posted 03-26-2005 02:24 PM ET (US) Peter, From 1985 to 1995 the then OMC had the 4.0L V8 block that put out 300hp. In race trim it was well over 400hp. Of course it used many times the fuel that an E-TEC would use of the same hp.
an86carrera	posted 03-26-2005 08:40 PM ET (US) I understand that the 200hp Ficht could be reprogrammed to 225 at DFI but they won't due to some aggreement with OMC?