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Author Topic:   High five prop no good for 170 Montauk

bigjohn1 posted 04-05-2005 09:12 AM ET (US)
Just when we thought we had run the sunject of propping a 170 into the ground, I thought I would share this since the summer boating season is coming up and some folks will presumably be wanting to try perhaps a different prop. I have an '05 170 with the 115efi. I curently run a stock aluminum 17P prop and want to change that as I do alot of rough ocean low speed trolling. Since I have a fight the throttle a good bit to stay at a constant speed in the chop and swells, I thought I'd switch to a four-blade ss prop - likely the Bravo II series by Merc. After looking at web pricing on several sites, I have found many firms that carry the high five for $100+ less than the four blades Bravo II. So, the thought hit me to simply go with the high five since they now make them in pitch sizes all the way down to 17. Merc's website still lists the smallest pitch at 20 so I decided to call customer service at Merc and have this clarrified since several websites are listing them down to 17P.
I was very surprised at that phone call as the Merc Rep I spoke with did all she could to talk me out of going with a high five. "You'll lose way too much on the top end and will not be happy with a high five" was her response. I explained a had a relatively light Whaler Montauk with a 115 and no matter what prop I put on it, the power and speed are tons more than I currently use in my boating style. She quickly punched my numbers into that Merc prop selector program they have and it said I needed a 22P. I told her that I seriously question that result as I started out with a 19P black max prop and it was too much for the engine. I'm just about ready to defy what Merc says and simply put the high five on anyway. Even if I lose 5-7mh on the top end, I could care less as water conditions here normally dictate a top speed of no more than around 30mph for comfort sake and to save your back from the pounding. I realize this flies in the face of what Merc is recomending but some here have spoken very positively of the high five and it sounds like it is the prop for me - plus the price is right, $399.00 excluding shipping on a couple of sites I have checked. The Bravo II goes for between $450 and $575 from what I have seen.
russellbailey posted 04-05-2005 09:46 AM ET (US)
I believe the sub-20" high-fives are for large-gearcase (typically V6) engines. I don't know what is on your engine, but it is too big for my 70 hp Evinrude (which takes the same prop as most of the Evinrude V4s).
Richard Quinlivan posted 04-05-2005 12:00 PM ET (US)
Bigjohn1
I currently run the 20 inch High 5 on my 95 Dauntless with a 125 2 stroke Merc with good results (low to mid 40's). I think that the 115 EFI has the same gearcase as my 125 but has a higher rpm range 5000 to 6000 versus 4750 to 5250. The judgement call is can the 115 drive the 170 to 5500 rpm +. If it can you will be pushing 50 mph.
As to speed loss I also have a 20 inch Laser 2 and it turns 200 rpm more then the High 5 which is good for 2 to 3 MPH.
I think you should try a modern SS prop from somewhere you can return it to if it is to steep a pitch. If you get to satisfactory RPM then you can extrapolate to a High 5 or a 4 blade or whatever. If you can't turn it fast enough try a 17. Some Merc dealers have trial props and could support your efforts.
Dick Q
bsmotril posted 04-05-2005 01:15 PM ET (US)
I tried a High Five on an old SeaRay Laguna 20 center console I owned. The boat had a 175 Merc with 19" mirage prop, and ran about 42 mph WOT. The high five I tried was the same pitch as the original Mirage, 19". The hole shot and smoothness was awesome and instant compared to the Mirage, almost turbine like. But, the engine was turning 300-500 rpm faster at any speed than it was with the original prop. My top end went down to 38mph. I did not keep it because I think it would have killed my fuel economy. If I had an opportunity to try one in a higher pitch, it would have put me more into the range I wanted. But, this prop was from a private party, not a dealer, and he did not have others for me to try. I would not be suprised that Merc suggests a lot more pitch on a HighFive than the stock prop based on my first hand experiences with that prop. BillS
LHG posted 04-05-2005 05:21 PM ET (US)
First of all, I agree that a nice rig like this should not be running a 17" alum prop, or any alum for that matter.
I am also under the impression, that because of the the higher gear ratio (lower numerically) in the 115 as opposed to the 90, the two engines would use the same prop on the same hull. Both use the industry standard 4-1/4" diameter hub, mid-HP range props, 70-125HP all brands.
I believe Boston Whaler factory equips the 170, when powered with the 90 4-stroke, with the Mercury Vengeance series SS prop, in 18" pitch. Theoretically, the 115 would use this same prop, and that is what "Tabasco" used, I believe, on his similar set up to Bigjohn's.
As far as I know, Mercury only makes one 4 bladed prop series for the mid-size gearcase, the Trophy series, and it is mostly intended for the bass and flats market, and is also run on 4-3/4" V-6's in the bass market. It *IS* a hot performer, and takes a lot of HP to turn, and requires the engine jacked up about 2" for surfacing operation. The lowest available pitch is 17", which could be OK for a 170. But I would first check with BW customer service, and see what props they have tested for 4-stroke 90HP 170's. It may not be appropriate at all.
So that's about it for Mercury branded props, unless there are new products out there that I am not aware of. The performance series props in Laser II and High Five are not made below 20" pitch, as has been indicated here. *IF* the engine can turn up one of these, the HIGH FIVE would be a good choice if top end is not the concern. They are super smooth, pull like a horse, and hang on like glue. They are also of surfacing design, and need to be run elevated to the middle (of five) set of holes. The question is whether the engine can turn the 20" minimum pitch.
As for the "Bravo" series of props that John has mentioned, I am confused. Bravo is Mercury/Mercruiser's designation for their stern drive I/O units, and the Bravo lines of props were designed for those. The only exception being the 4 bladed Bravo I series, a top performer often used for 225-250HP EFI's and Optimax, and 275 Verados, when running in twin or triple configuration on FAST boats, with surface piercing operation. Minimum pitch for this 4-3/4" gearcase prop is 22", meaning it can't be used on 3.0 liter outboard powered boats that can't do over 60mph! There is a huge "Bravo 2" aluminum prop for the big I/O's.
As mentioned by russell, the 17" High five is a V-6 prop.
So what would I do if this was my setup. If I was convinced the 17" Trophy would not work on the boat, I would look at the Michigan Wheel SS "Rapture" series of performance props. They make them in 17" and 19" pitch, and they have licensed the Mercury interchangeable hub, which both saves money and allows them to be easily used on any brand engine, enhancing re-sale value. Cabela's seems to have a good price on them, about $290 including hub brand of your choice. Because they take more "bite" than a conventional alum or Vengeance prop, my first guess would be to stay with 17" pitch.
Good luck and keep us posted.
bigjohn1 posted 04-05-2005 06:04 PM ET (US)
LHG, my apologies for creating some confusion here. I meant to say Trophy Plus vice Bravo II. Guess I'm suffering from a bout of CRS:-)
John W posted 04-05-2005 08:38 PM ET (US)
If money is an issue, I would suggest a Stilleto prop, check them out in the Overton's catalog. The 3 blade is a great all around prop for $309, and the 4 blade "bay series" prop will give you better accelleration & holding power in rough wwater, with a slight loss in top end.
Overton's will let you try them & exchange for a different pitch if you pick the wrong prop.
bigjohn1 posted 04-07-2005 10:51 PM ET (US)
John, sounds like a good idea. I checked Overton's but cxould not locate a 4-blade Bay Series prop in 17P on their site.
bigjohn1 posted 04-07-2005 10:59 PM ET (US)
Oops, I found it - please disregard that last comment.
jimh posted 04-08-2005 06:59 PM ET (US)
I've read this over a couple of times, but I am not sure what the conclusion is.
Is the Mercury Hi-Five propeller inappropriate for use on a 170 MONTAUK?
LHG posted 04-08-2005 08:40 PM ET (US)
Conclusion, Jim, as I see it. For a mid-range 4-1/4" gearcase, 20" pitch is the minimum pitch in which they are manufactured.
Staying legal with a 90 HP engine, and because 4-strokes have to turn more RPM, hence using lower pitch props when compared to a two stroke, it is unlikely the engine could turn 20" of pitch. Because a 4-stroke 115 has a higher 2.07 gear ratio, it won't either.
A 2-stroke Merc 90, however, only needing to turn 5500 RPM through 2.33 gears, should be able to run one, provided the engine is lifted 1-1/2", as these props require. Running them fully submerged, Mercury says this would increase the EFFECTIVE pitch of a 20" HighFive or Laser II to 22".
rtk posted 04-08-2005 09:58 PM ET (US)
www.ptprop.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=32_44_50
Give these guys a call/email, see what they can do for you. I do think they have a policy that you can swap for pitch. In my opinion, the last thing a small offshore boat needs is a bow lifting performance prop that is designed to run at elevated engine heights. Bow lift with a small boat at elevated engine heights only results in feeling like someone beat you with a baseball bat when you run in the rough stuff.
Maximum engine height for maximum wide open throttle performance will not benefit you for the way you use your boat.
Rich

bigjohn1 posted 04-09-2005 10:23 AM ET (US)
rtk, I hear you on all points. Russell enlightened me (and LHG confirmed) that a 17P high five is for V-6's. Since I don't have a V-6, looks like I'm scratching the whole idea.
Some of you will cringe at this but my motor is mounted in the second to lowest hole and runs just fine given my water conditions and useage. After speaking with all the local dealers here (Suzuki, Evinrude, Merc) they all lean toward mounting outboards just a tad lower than you would for a lake boat where you want top speed on glassy waters. It seems to simply be one of those things that has always been done here; they rationalize this by saying it will help prevent ventilation in slow speed choppy water trolling. With a bad back already, the last thing I want is something that will make my boat pound even more.
I now think for my conditions, the 4-blade Trophy Plus in 17P is what I need. A standard Black Max 17 gives me just shy of 5,900rpm at WOT (which I will rarely see in these waters) so I think I am where I need to be for my locale.

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Author	Topic: High five prop no good for 170 Montauk
bigjohn1	posted 04-05-2005 09:12 AM ET (US) Just when we thought we had run the sunject of propping a 170 into the ground, I thought I would share this since the summer boating season is coming up and some folks will presumably be wanting to try perhaps a different prop. I have an '05 170 with the 115efi. I curently run a stock aluminum 17P prop and want to change that as I do alot of rough ocean low speed trolling. Since I have a fight the throttle a good bit to stay at a constant speed in the chop and swells, I thought I'd switch to a four-blade ss prop - likely the Bravo II series by Merc. After looking at web pricing on several sites, I have found many firms that carry the high five for $100+ less than the four blades Bravo II. So, the thought hit me to simply go with the high five since they now make them in pitch sizes all the way down to 17. Merc's website still lists the smallest pitch at 20 so I decided to call customer service at Merc and have this clarrified since several websites are listing them down to 17P. I was very surprised at that phone call as the Merc Rep I spoke with did all she could to talk me out of going with a high five. "You'll lose way too much on the top end and will not be happy with a high five" was her response. I explained a had a relatively light Whaler Montauk with a 115 and no matter what prop I put on it, the power and speed are tons more than I currently use in my boating style. She quickly punched my numbers into that Merc prop selector program they have and it said I needed a 22P. I told her that I seriously question that result as I started out with a 19P black max prop and it was too much for the engine. I'm just about ready to defy what Merc says and simply put the high five on anyway. Even if I lose 5-7mh on the top end, I could care less as water conditions here normally dictate a top speed of no more than around 30mph for comfort sake and to save your back from the pounding. I realize this flies in the face of what Merc is recomending but some here have spoken very positively of the high five and it sounds like it is the prop for me - plus the price is right, $399.00 excluding shipping on a couple of sites I have checked. The Bravo II goes for between $450 and $575 from what I have seen.
russellbailey	posted 04-05-2005 09:46 AM ET (US) I believe the sub-20" high-fives are for large-gearcase (typically V6) engines. I don't know what is on your engine, but it is too big for my 70 hp Evinrude (which takes the same prop as most of the Evinrude V4s).
Richard Quinlivan	posted 04-05-2005 12:00 PM ET (US) Bigjohn1 I currently run the 20 inch High 5 on my 95 Dauntless with a 125 2 stroke Merc with good results (low to mid 40's). I think that the 115 EFI has the same gearcase as my 125 but has a higher rpm range 5000 to 6000 versus 4750 to 5250. The judgement call is can the 115 drive the 170 to 5500 rpm +. If it can you will be pushing 50 mph. As to speed loss I also have a 20 inch Laser 2 and it turns 200 rpm more then the High 5 which is good for 2 to 3 MPH. I think you should try a modern SS prop from somewhere you can return it to if it is to steep a pitch. If you get to satisfactory RPM then you can extrapolate to a High 5 or a 4 blade or whatever. If you can't turn it fast enough try a 17. Some Merc dealers have trial props and could support your efforts. Dick Q
bsmotril	posted 04-05-2005 01:15 PM ET (US) I tried a High Five on an old SeaRay Laguna 20 center console I owned. The boat had a 175 Merc with 19" mirage prop, and ran about 42 mph WOT. The high five I tried was the same pitch as the original Mirage, 19". The hole shot and smoothness was awesome and instant compared to the Mirage, almost turbine like. But, the engine was turning 300-500 rpm faster at any speed than it was with the original prop. My top end went down to 38mph. I did not keep it because I think it would have killed my fuel economy. If I had an opportunity to try one in a higher pitch, it would have put me more into the range I wanted. But, this prop was from a private party, not a dealer, and he did not have others for me to try. I would not be suprised that Merc suggests a lot more pitch on a HighFive than the stock prop based on my first hand experiences with that prop. BillS
LHG	posted 04-05-2005 05:21 PM ET (US) First of all, I agree that a nice rig like this should not be running a 17" alum prop, or any alum for that matter. I am also under the impression, that because of the the higher gear ratio (lower numerically) in the 115 as opposed to the 90, the two engines would use the same prop on the same hull. Both use the industry standard 4-1/4" diameter hub, mid-HP range props, 70-125HP all brands. I believe Boston Whaler factory equips the 170, when powered with the 90 4-stroke, with the Mercury Vengeance series SS prop, in 18" pitch. Theoretically, the 115 would use this same prop, and that is what "Tabasco" used, I believe, on his similar set up to Bigjohn's. As far as I know, Mercury only makes one 4 bladed prop series for the mid-size gearcase, the Trophy series, and it is mostly intended for the bass and flats market, and is also run on 4-3/4" V-6's in the bass market. It IS a hot performer, and takes a lot of HP to turn, and requires the engine jacked up about 2" for surfacing operation. The lowest available pitch is 17", which could be OK for a 170. But I would first check with BW customer service, and see what props they have tested for 4-stroke 90HP 170's. It may not be appropriate at all. So that's about it for Mercury branded props, unless there are new products out there that I am not aware of. The performance series props in Laser II and High Five are not made below 20" pitch, as has been indicated here. IF the engine can turn up one of these, the HIGH FIVE would be a good choice if top end is not the concern. They are super smooth, pull like a horse, and hang on like glue. They are also of surfacing design, and need to be run elevated to the middle (of five) set of holes. The question is whether the engine can turn the 20" minimum pitch. As for the "Bravo" series of props that John has mentioned, I am confused. Bravo is Mercury/Mercruiser's designation for their stern drive I/O units, and the Bravo lines of props were designed for those. The only exception being the 4 bladed Bravo I series, a top performer often used for 225-250HP EFI's and Optimax, and 275 Verados, when running in twin or triple configuration on FAST boats, with surface piercing operation. Minimum pitch for this 4-3/4" gearcase prop is 22", meaning it can't be used on 3.0 liter outboard powered boats that can't do over 60mph! There is a huge "Bravo 2" aluminum prop for the big I/O's. As mentioned by russell, the 17" High five is a V-6 prop. So what would I do if this was my setup. If I was convinced the 17" Trophy would not work on the boat, I would look at the Michigan Wheel SS "Rapture" series of performance props. They make them in 17" and 19" pitch, and they have licensed the Mercury interchangeable hub, which both saves money and allows them to be easily used on any brand engine, enhancing re-sale value. Cabela's seems to have a good price on them, about $290 including hub brand of your choice. Because they take more "bite" than a conventional alum or Vengeance prop, my first guess would be to stay with 17" pitch. Good luck and keep us posted.
bigjohn1	posted 04-05-2005 06:04 PM ET (US) LHG, my apologies for creating some confusion here. I meant to say Trophy Plus vice Bravo II. Guess I'm suffering from a bout of CRS:-)
John W	posted 04-05-2005 08:38 PM ET (US) If money is an issue, I would suggest a Stilleto prop, check them out in the Overton's catalog. The 3 blade is a great all around prop for $309, and the 4 blade "bay series" prop will give you better accelleration & holding power in rough wwater, with a slight loss in top end. Overton's will let you try them & exchange for a different pitch if you pick the wrong prop.
bigjohn1	posted 04-07-2005 10:51 PM ET (US) John, sounds like a good idea. I checked Overton's but cxould not locate a 4-blade Bay Series prop in 17P on their site.
bigjohn1	posted 04-07-2005 10:59 PM ET (US) Oops, I found it - please disregard that last comment.
jimh	posted 04-08-2005 06:59 PM ET (US) I've read this over a couple of times, but I am not sure what the conclusion is. Is the Mercury Hi-Five propeller inappropriate for use on a 170 MONTAUK?
LHG	posted 04-08-2005 08:40 PM ET (US) Conclusion, Jim, as I see it. For a mid-range 4-1/4" gearcase, 20" pitch is the minimum pitch in which they are manufactured. Staying legal with a 90 HP engine, and because 4-strokes have to turn more RPM, hence using lower pitch props when compared to a two stroke, it is unlikely the engine could turn 20" of pitch. Because a 4-stroke 115 has a higher 2.07 gear ratio, it won't either. A 2-stroke Merc 90, however, only needing to turn 5500 RPM through 2.33 gears, should be able to run one, provided the engine is lifted 1-1/2", as these props require. Running them fully submerged, Mercury says this would increase the EFFECTIVE pitch of a 20" HighFive or Laser II to 22".
rtk	posted 04-08-2005 09:58 PM ET (US) www.ptprop.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=32_44_50 Give these guys a call/email, see what they can do for you. I do think they have a policy that you can swap for pitch. In my opinion, the last thing a small offshore boat needs is a bow lifting performance prop that is designed to run at elevated engine heights. Bow lift with a small boat at elevated engine heights only results in feeling like someone beat you with a baseball bat when you run in the rough stuff. Maximum engine height for maximum wide open throttle performance will not benefit you for the way you use your boat. Rich
bigjohn1	posted 04-09-2005 10:23 AM ET (US) rtk, I hear you on all points. Russell enlightened me (and LHG confirmed) that a 17P high five is for V-6's. Since I don't have a V-6, looks like I'm scratching the whole idea. Some of you will cringe at this but my motor is mounted in the second to lowest hole and runs just fine given my water conditions and useage. After speaking with all the local dealers here (Suzuki, Evinrude, Merc) they all lean toward mounting outboards just a tad lower than you would for a lake boat where you want top speed on glassy waters. It seems to simply be one of those things that has always been done here; they rationalize this by saying it will help prevent ventilation in slow speed choppy water trolling. With a bad back already, the last thing I want is something that will make my boat pound even more. I now think for my conditions, the 4-blade Trophy Plus in 17P is what I need. A standard Black Max 17 gives me just shy of 5,900rpm at WOT (which I will rarely see in these waters) so I think I am where I need to be for my locale.