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Author Topic:   MONTAUK: Re-power 90-HP Yamaha Two-stroke
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 04-16-2005 12:18 AM ET (US)   Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer   Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer  
I re-powered a 1987 Montauk 17 with a 2004 Yamaha 90-HP. It used to have a 1988 Evinrude 90-HP V-4. The differences:

1. Yamaha is 261 pounds vs 314 for Evinrude. I will see how that affects trim. It will be easier on the boats transom (plus)

2. Yamaha is a 3-cylinder 1100cc vs Evinrude V4 1600cc. Less torque (muscle) expected. Top speed should be similar. (minus)

3. Engine tilt lock for trailering on Yamaha is junk compared to Evinrude. (minus)

4. Factory service manual is bogus junk compared to Evinrude. (minus) (Quick shipping however (plus)

5. Yamaha does not need as many really special tools as Evinrude to maintain or tear down. (plus)

6. Alternator output: Yamaha 10 amps (plus) Evinrude 6-9 (minus) (New Evinrudes have much more.)

7. Battery cables are real nice on new Yamaha already installed on crate motor (plus)

8. Yamaha controls are "plug and play" (plus)

9. Oil injection is by a driven gear at the crank Yamaha (plus) vs crankcase vacuum pulse and hoses Evinrude (minus)

10. Yamaha has a special "rigging guide" available only to dealers which details controls hook ups. The factory manual does not cover these items. Why not? (minus)

More to come as the facts become known.

seahorse posted 04-16-2005 01:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse  Send Email to seahorse     
You are comparing a new motor with one that is 16 years older, and you are getting rid of it for some reason. There have been a lot of changes since then. You ought to make your comparison with a new Johnson 90 or the Evinrude E-TEC 90 to make things fair. If someone compared a new Evinrude 90 with a 1988 Yamaha 90, would that be fair?
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 04-16-2005 09:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
My tale is not about Evinrude vs Yamaha or being fair. It's not about 1988 motors or today's in general. It's about how I feel about the motor I had and the new motor I have. Yamaha and Evinrude can both learn a thing or two. I ran the guts out of the old motor: 1800 hours. Plus I had many happy trips with it and would have bought a new one just like it in a minute, except it's not made anymore. Others can compare their old and new Evinrude's--or what not--as well, if they want. The point: there are lots of Boston Whalers powered with older Evinrudes like mine and they may repower with the Yamaha until it ain't made no more. These are just things they can expect to see and deal with .
joee posted 04-17-2005 08:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for joee  Send Email to joee     
Saw your boat at Belle Haven last week. Wife got a couple rigging ideas. We have an 1988 90-HP Johnson hanging on the back of a 1963 Whaler. After a few adjustments and a dose of seafoam, it fires right up and idles better than a 1992 Johnson. Its about two miles from our driveway to Belle Haven. You have a nice rig, with or without motor.
fourdfish posted 04-18-2005 01:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for fourdfish  Send Email to fourdfish     
Sorry! I don't see any point at all!!
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 04-19-2005 10:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Joee, I have had the Whaler since new. If you have any motor questions about you V4, ask me. I bought a bunch of factory tools over the years. I stopped fooling with the old V4, pre-mixed the gasoline and oil at a ratio of 50:1, and rode for years trouble free. The V4's are strong motors.
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 04-25-2005 10:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
I now have five hours on the motor. It has vibration at 2000-RPM, but it is going away. Deep throaty sound. Runs fast. Good pick up. I cannot distinguish it from the Evinrude, although the Yamaha is a smaller motor. Ran 22-miles round trip yesterday on about 4.5 gallons. Will be more detailed with a stopwatch on speed when break-in is over. Yamaha starts easy . Idles (fairly) good. The engine is ounted all the way down until the motor is about on the transom. At that height the cativation plate is about even with the hull bottom.
Peter posted 04-26-2005 07:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
That vibration or rough spot at 2000 RPM may be caused by a node in the the 3-cylinder tuned exhaust harmonics. There is probably another rough spot somewhere above 4000 RPM.

My 3-cylinder Yamaha 70 with its "pulse tuned exhaust" has a node somewhere near 2000 RPM and another one at about 4400 RPM. Those are RPMs I just simply avoid.

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 04-26-2005 08:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
With the Evinrude 2000-RPM was my "tractor gear." I would throttle down to that RPM and she would climb over all kinds of bad weather. That speed put the front of the Whaler up high. Riding up there it was about almost 5 feet off the water It was actually about 12-MPH, so even in rough seas I could make some good time. I don't think this Yamaha puts the bow that high. Will have to check. Also I need to hook up the tachometer to see what the engine speed is actually.
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-02-2005 10:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Sorting this new Yamaha out. The tachometer is hooked up. Old Teleflex from Evinrude. Seems to work fine. Yesterday the top speed was 5000 RPM. Today 6000. Then later 5000-5500. The stop watch does not lie. Seems like the tachometer is not right, but the idle is the same about 800 RPM. Only hit 6000 RPM for a second, then backed down a bit. Red line is 5500. Really don't know what the true RPM is on this tachometer. Could be running 6000 with a 13 1/4 X 17 Propeller.

One-mile distance between bouys (Statute Mile)

Time = 1 minute 46 seconds. Indicating 5500-RPM. 41 MPH. Not quite flat out. A little bit left on the throttle.

Time 2 minutes 15 seconds on a second run. 4000-4100 RPM. Speed 27 MPH. Hands off the throttle. Cruise speed. It seems to settle around this point if you take your hand off the throttle. Say you were running 4500-RPM. It is a good cruise speed . It will run and run hands off at this speed. 23-27 MPH depends where it "settles" This a Yamaha 704 top-mount control.

Another run at 4000 RPM and 2:48. 24 MPH (Was I standing?) Don't. Maybe wind resistance on body?

A 5000-RPM run 1:47. 40 MPH

A 2000-RPM run 9-minutes 6.6-MPH

A 3000 RPM run 4:06 14-MPH.

A 3800 Run 2:44 24.5 MPH

1987 montauk One person 190 lbs, two 6-gallon gas tanks, Bottom paint 17 X 13 1/4 pitch Prop. Sitting position, standing on some of the 4000 Rpm runs.

The bouys are on the Potomac River just south of Washington, DC. They are charted and the CG places them "on the money" They have to, as the channel is narrow and ships 600-feet and 30,000 tons come up here.

The tachometer may lie but the watch does not. Looks like a top speed would be about 42-43 MPH, about the same as the 90-HP Evinrude with the same pitch prop. I do recall a 1:37 duration on the old motor on this run.

This motor will not point the bow up like the old. It will try at 2000 RPM and trim it up some but not the same. Motor is mounted on the highest motor holes. Cavatition plate is level with bottom of boat.

A soild 40-MPH is good enough for me and it has that. A good cruise of 26 MPH is good, too. What is funny is the other motor would only run 4800 RPM and the cruise at 26 MPH was 3000 RPM "Tractor gear" was 2000 rpm and about 14 MPH. About the same as this motor at "3000" RPM. Tach differences maybe. And not true RPM's. At least I do know the speeds in time so I can compare. I want to get into some rough Chesapeake Bay seas to find out how it handles. The old motor was real good at 2000 RPM.

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-02-2005 11:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
I belive that 3000 RPM is really what I was probably running thinking it was 2000 on the old motor. The nod [node?] at 2000, 4300 RPM. That is about the vibration spot. Will check that out some more. Peter, thanks for that information. It is a 3-cylinder not a 4-cylinder. The old motor was a 4-cylinder.

What RPM and speed do you others get with a 17 Montauk? What propeller pitch?

frb91864 posted 05-03-2005 09:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for frb91864  Send Email to frb91864     
Cheasapeak,
I have a 1987 Montauk with a 1986 Yamaha 90-HP/ It runs about 5600-ROM with two on board and a light load. The prop is a 17 x 14, I believe. I have only a simple Yamaha speedometer which reads over 42-MPH at wide open throttle. My motor has a rough spot between 1000- 2000 RPM. Some have told me that all these 3 cylonder Yamaha outboard motors run a little rough. Maybe I'll see you out on the bay. I crab and fish mostly over near Kent Island.

Fritz

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-03-2005 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
I trotline crab Eastern Bay, crab Alley Dominion, Kent Narrows, Wye River, Western Shore , Potomac River. Another couple of months yet. Saw big Rock caught at Chesapeake Beach Md last weekend this weekend supposed to be nice and I 'll be out there 9 hrs on new Yamaha.
Teak Oil posted 05-04-2005 08:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
With a 20 year old 90-HP Evinrude I am running 46-MPH at 5300-RPM with a 13x19 prop, though I do have a 6" jack plate
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-10-2005 11:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
About 10 hours now on motor. Went to Chesapeake Beach Md for some rockfishing. It has been wind blowing three days now. The bay was rough as a cob. Small craft warnings. I wanted to see how this new motor handled in rough water. It has a vibration about 2800-3000 RPM which is the speed I need. No tractor gear like the old Evinrude. I have the motor all the way down. Its on the transom. The Evinrude was up about 1-inch. Maybe that [is] the reason. I am going to raise it one hole to see what happens. Still running 50:1 [gasoline:oil ratio]. Will be switching to 100:1 soon with calibration test of oil pump output.
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-14-2005 10:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Raised motor onw bolt hole up as per my post on motor height. Running smoother. Was too low all thye way down. Tractor gear is back, too.
RocketMan posted 05-15-2005 06:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for RocketMan  Send Email to RocketMan     
CE - I've learned something about motors to hear you describe them. How the 90-HP two-stroke Yamaha drives the boat vs. the venerable Evinrude 90 is interesting. I now understand a little more about having a larger displacement for say a Classic 16 hull.

My 1985 Yamaha is still running well and there seems to be little difference with the 2005 model. On a Classic 16 it falls off plane QUICKLY at 2400-2600 RPM. The hull design wants to plane or plow, very little transition zone. It sounds like this characteristic was different with the bigger displacement Evinrude.

Suspect you could get the bow a little higher in the air with trim but that the lighter motor might be having a noticable effect, too. Stick a 53 lb. rocker in the transom well next chance you get and let us know if she rides more like she did.

Keep up the enjoyable operational posts.

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-16-2005 10:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Adjusted up the timing linkages. Found one a turn off. Used a dial caliper to check. Checked timing. It on the money at slow idle ATDC 8. The power pack linkage was set at WOT for the first mark of the two little marks. That is the setting for a 70-HP motor. Reset the linkage for the second mark for a 90-HP. Seems to run a bit better after a ride. It is breaking in still and just changed to 100:1 from 50:1 [gasoline to oil ratio]. This motor takes a while to warm up. Also, idling out it has a throaty sound. Almost like a four-stroke muscle boat motor. After it warms up it is very quite. I note a electrothermal valve. [Solenoid?] It is on the center carb. That is probably to enrich the motor till it warms up and thus the sound change, also the motor is sluggish on low speed operation until it warms up. It is becoming a three bump start motor. Three short bumps on the key and it is running. It idles great. Did a compression test cold with all plugs pulled 118-115 on all three cylinder. Warmed up, with all three plugs pulled, and throttle wide open, [the compression reading is] 120 on all three cylinders. [This is an indication that the motor is] breaking in good. It is even compression on all three. Thought it would be higher. The Evinrude [had compression of] 120 PSI when it was brand new. After 1800 hours it went down to 90-PSI on two badly scored cylinders but still had 105-PSI on the other two. Rocket man, I have a 40-lb piece of steel, and I am going to try (what you said) to see how much difference this lighter motor affects that "tractor gear". Ran a 4000-RPM test after raising the motor and was 1:59 on the mile for 30-MPH. Still tops out at 5000-RPM. That may be the tach. Got new Yamaha trim gauge pro series ($142) and harness. It sets right on the center mark at the best trim, no porpoising at all with this motor unless you trim it way up. This motor looks like it will be really easy to work on. Several of my Evinrude tools work on it like the Stevens CD-77 peak reading voltmeter, Spark plugs are 13/16 regular size. Hooked up my old Teleflex tach and new hour meter. Wiring is Yellow from Yamaha key switch to Ing on Tach/Green from Yamaha keyswitch to send and black from key switch to ground. Hour meter is straight off the tach Ing is hot and black is ground The yellow is hot from key switch with key on. yamah key switch has 4 wires off it , they are designed to plug into the Yamaha digital tach/Hr meter trim Gauge. Black/Yellow/Green/Red The Yamaha gauge is about 350 and so I uused my old tach. that too much money for me if it glitches in the future/ Tach is set on standard Erude pole setting ..8 pole I beleve it is.Trim gauge has several wires also with plugs I connected the yellow to tach/ black same and the harness plugs into the pink and black to the sender. Theres a gray on the motor, Motor plug Pink/black/gray it has 12 V on it but does not hook up to the gauge)
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-25-2005 09:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Ran on the Chesapeake again last weekend at Annapolis Md. Bay Bridge area. Motor gets boat up on plane real fast. Keeping speed down. At 2800-RPM vibration I do not like. This speed I have to run as the bay will beat me up if I go faster even though it looks smooth as it was that day. Maybe 3cylinderss do this more than V4s. Vibrate at certain RPM. It has been like that since the first start up. Running almost straight gas as motor has 15 hours now. Pulled prop and moved it to another spot and will put in new plugs. Thinking about a 13 1/2 X 15 pitch prop for Bay use only. Motor idles real good and trolls good. I was out for rockfish.
The Chesapeake can look smooth and little swells and wakes will beat you up in a 17 Montauks The bay can really be rough with rolling breaking whitecaps and if you run at a 45 to or at a 80 degree to them them you can ride right along pretty smoothly at 3000 -3500 rpm. Head on into these breaking whitecaps and its idle speed only.
RocketMan posted 05-26-2005 03:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for RocketMan  Send Email to RocketMan     
CE - My 1985 90 hp Yamaha on a 1968 Sakonnet really doesn't have any vibration range that needs to be avoided, never has since new. Maybe changin' the prop will help some, but if it doesn't maybe a four blade is another longshot. Other remote thought would be to play with trim tab but not sure what the connection would be. Wondering what the dealer says? Probably not much. Might be worth a try asking them to feed it back to the factory, might be a diagnostic that can be tried.
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-26-2005 10:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Got a new Yamaha 13 1/2 X 15 prop today. Seems to run better with this prop. Vibration is still noticible when letting off power . You can sense it when the engine speed falls to 2800-RPM for a second then it lets off. Its not as bad. This 15 pitch prop I think will do well on the bay in rougher water. Ran 1 mile at 4500 Rpm at 1:55 31 mph Ran same at 4000 Rpm in cruise on throttle 2:29/24 mph WOT is now 5400 rpm Will be better for trotline crabbing speed also I think LHG hit it on the head this is really about a 80 HP motor. The old V4 Evinrude would pull a 17 pitch with ease. Now all that said the vibration "zone" 2800 RPM is not that bad just bugging me as the Evinrude was smooth. When I let off throttle it settles at 4000 /3900 rpm/24 mph and will run and run great! 4125 rpm would be 3/4 throttle of the max 5500 rpm. and outboards like to run at this speed.
LHG posted 05-26-2005 10:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
How does it feel to have paid for 90 horses and only gotten about 82? In the old west, they would have called that thievery and called for a lynching, but in the FAR west, I guess it's OK.

If top end was your interest, you should have checked out the cubes first. The Yamaha is 69.9, the Merc 90 is 84.6 (and puts out a true 98 HP I am told by a Mercury engineer), and I think the Johnson, which IS still available, is even more cubes than the Merc. Why did you switch brands?

I'm not sure that E-TEC 90 is putting out any more than the Yamaha 2-stroke, either. The two engines seem to be running about dead equal on Montauks.

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-26-2005 11:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Why switch? Well after pulling my 1988 Evinrude 90 down in February 2005 seeing too much damage to rebuild decided to go new motor. I was setteled on a 90 Mercury. I thought that was my cheapest choice. I had been quoted $7,000 for a Yamaha 90 two years ago. The Yamaha has been giving good ratings. I have heard Yamaha for years. In March 2005 I went to a boat show. Ed's Superstore was there as they are always. I saw Yamaha at special $4,700, Mercury 90 at $4,900 and Johnson at $4,900. When I saw these prices my head spun. I did not want the Johnson as it had a remote oil tank and after my Evinrude VRO experience was not happy there. The Mercury I had heard from many sources including mechanics idle troubles. I chose the Yamaha. I knew the displacement difference when I bought it. I figured that it would truly have the torque and HP of the larger Mercury or Evinrude. I can deal with that. The motor has a vibration at 2800-RPM I dont like. It is the exhaust node or something as has been explained here. Just a quirk I don't like about the motor and I have dealt with it now I feel with the prop change. I wish I had bought a [Evinrude V-4] 88 Special when Eds had them for $3,500 a few years back. And put it up. Oh well choices are harder now for Montauk owners to re-power.
Peter posted 05-27-2005 05:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Larry, in a 90 HP shootout report produced by Trailer Boats Magazine last year, the E-TEC 90 was actually the fastest of the group of motors tested, including the large and heavy 90 Optimax. By all estimations I've made based on performance reports here, the 90 E-TEC produces 90 HP, no more, no less.

The Yamaha 90 may not be the fastest engine but it is a very, very good outboard with probably hundreds of thousands of them in operation world wide. Unless one is a speed freak, I'm really not sure what all the HP fuss is about. The Montauk runs quite well with a 70 and by some accounts, also with a 50.

Chesapeake, I think you have to give your Yamaha a little time to get worn in. I do think you should change your plugs now and eventually do a decarb somewhere between the 25 to 50 hour mark to clean things up from all the extra oiling during break-in. Also, you are going from a 4-cylinder cross-flow to a 3 cylinder loop charged engine. My experience has been that the cross-flow engines seem to be smoother than the "loopers" and even numbered cylinder engines smoother than odd numbered cylinder engines.

andiamo posted 05-27-2005 09:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for andiamo  Send Email to andiamo     
I love these discussions about speed. I also guess [obtaining absolute maximum top speed] may be important where you boat, but for me, off our place on the east coast of Canada, even on a calm day you have 2 foot ground swell. These long lazy swells are launch ramps at speed, so have fun at 42, 44, 47-MPH (and are those mps or Knt's) I guess I am too old for that.

For me I want to have the motor start, run at idle forward and reverse, and have confidence that she will run and run and run when off shore. Having had my old ('86) Evinrude v4 90 hp die while out on the ocean (in an area without a lot of traffic to help), I am just hopeful that my new E-TEC will live up to it advertised priority of reliability. But I am also sure that so would all of the new tech motors whether they be 2 or 4's.

Having agonized over my new engine choice for months (but isn't that the fun thing to do all winter), I have concluded there are no right/wrong/good/bad choices. I would not buy an old tech 2 stroke just because of the reliablity issues I had especially at idle speeds on my old one, but that is me. I also thought weight was important on my older narrow sterned boat ('86 Montauk), but I know that others run heavier engines with much success. I on occassion take kids skiing, and found with the 115 Yamaha 4's I had last summer (on another heavier boat) it did not have the torque needed to get a skiier up on one ski easily, but it sure was quite and reliable.

So what I am saying is, there is no right, no wrong, only factors to weigh and the best part is we all get to go boating.

jimh posted 05-27-2005 06:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Your results are about what should be expected. Let's review.

How did the lighter motor affect trim? The bow rise was reduced. Sounds about right.

How did the smaller displacement affect performance? The smaller engine had less torque and could not maintain the boat on plane at lower speeds. It lost "tractor gear" as you describe. Sounds about right.

I agree with your assessment of the tilt lock. The Evinrude mechanism is much better.

As for the special tools, this should be about the same. The Yamaha 3-cylinder engine is just about an exact copy of the OMC 3-cylinder engine.

By 2005 standards, the magneto output for charging is quite weak on the Yamaha. I bet you will eventually have problems with the charging system on the Yamaha if you continually require substantial charging current from it. Keep your battery in good condition so the engine is not trying to charge it from a deeply discharged condition all the time.

The PRECISION BLEND oil system on the Yamaha does not have as many alarms or sensors as the Evinrude VRO system to detect malfunction. It does have a good track record, however.

The Yamaha's "honk" around 4100-RPM can be very pronounced.

In the end it sounds like the principal factor in your decision was the lower price of the Yamaha. This sounds about right, too. The USITC investigation found that outboard motors from Japan were generally being sold below fair market value (or "dumped") on the U.S. market.

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-27-2005 10:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
To tell the truth this thread would have been better info 4 years ago as the 2S Yamaha will be gone soon. Peter I have changed those plugs and will give it some time to break in . With the new 13 1/2 X 15 prop I think its much better. Jimh when I say my head spun it was because the prices of all the motors was low to my plesent suprise. Your right there are many differences between these motors.. really I had no idea I figured outboards were all the same never had a clue there are differences with the same power ratings. When I say I though the Yamaha would be the same HP I knew it was a smaller motor and how could it have the torque the Erude have. I figured wound up it would be the same speed top end . Like Andimo I run rough water too alot so really top speed is not the main issue but its nice to have when you need it. By the way Andimo I lived two years in Newfoundland when I was 10-12 and rode the ferry when it was new 90 miles across from Sidney in ice in 1964. I heard it sank as a result of a ice burg hit some years back. I have many great memories of Canada from my youtrh and can remember how clear the water was down to 10 and more feet deep flounder and crabs and lobsters.

Any way I am glad to get a new motor! If I could buy the old E rude new again I would have and mixed it 50-1 but thems the old days now so I am moving on! Next motor will be a 4S Yep the Whaler will still be round then!

The Chesapeake Explorer posted 05-29-2005 12:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for The Chesapeake Explorer  Send Email to The Chesapeake Explorer     
Out today at Chesapeake Beach Md to Deale Md and main bay and back in. Windy bay chop and a T storm coming in. New 15 pitch prop put her up in the air (tractor gear) as the storm came in with the wind. Was headed into it. wind so loud could not hear motor.. 15 inch prop is just fine. Rode out main bay and trolled no rockfish but it seems much better for this 17 Montauk/ My recommend for a 17 Montauk w /90 HP 2 S Yamaha a 13 1/2 X 15 prop. Thats all folks! I will give this tread a rest!

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