230 OUTRAGE: Re-power AND Self-Install with twin HONDA Four-strokes

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Author Topic:   230 OUTRAGE: Re-power AND Self-Install with twin HONDA Four-strokes

ctoolman posted 08-31-2005 02:22 PM ET (US)
I currently have twin 2001 150-HP Mercury OptiMax motors on my 230 Outrage. I would like to move up to twin HONDA BF150. Is this something [I] can do or is it best left for the dealer? I realize it will require change of gauges and cables. I think the steering would work okay. Any input would be helpful. I am mechanically inclined, that is why I want to change. Mercury just doesn't want to help the little guy fix his own stuff. You can't even get the diagnostic equipment to check it over, what a bunch of b.s. I can get a code reader for my auto but not my outboard.
I hate downtime.....
oroseiwhaler posted 08-31-2005 03:16 PM ET (US)
Hi ctcoolman,
I have a 1998 Outrage 23 with 2 150 HP HDPI Yammies.
The Outrage 23 with 2 Outboards mounted is quite heavy on the stern. If you switch to the Hondas it will get's still more heavier.
Optimax 150 431 lbs
Honda BF 150 485 lbs
Difference 54 lbs x 2 = 108 lbs
108 lbs more hanging on the extrem end of a boat will modify how it's "sit" on the water quite in a bad way. Try it by your self: stand on the swimladder hatch and notify how the stern sinks down.
My HDPI's weight ist 476 lbs each and i feel that the boat carrys to much weight on the stern.
I'd rather get a lighter outboard instead of hanging a heavier 4-stroke O/B on my stern.
Also you have to expect 4000 rpm to plane and not 3000 with your actual rig. This means also that the fuelsavings are getting lesser than expected.
If you do a lot of trolling on idle rpm's then you will save about 0.75 gallons a hour, but is it worth...?
O.K. you will get also no smoke and less rumour, but...
I've never will hang a 4-stroke on my boat's back.
Best regads
Chris
ctoolman posted 08-31-2005 08:33 PM ET (US)
thanks for you response but the sticker on each of my opti's says 464lbs...so if that is true i will only be adding 40 lbs,plus i can dump the 2 oil tanks 3 gallons each,so i really think the weight difference is not going to be much but i will get the most reliable motor,in my experience with honda products...that is my reason for this thought pattern...
LHG posted 08-31-2005 08:47 PM ET (US)
You will lose quite a bit on acceleration. Mercury says the 150 Verado accelerates 50% faster than the Honda 150, something which I would assume your existing Optimaxs will also so. If you must have Japanese 4-stroke power, you would be better off with the Yamaha F150, a faster, more powerful and better accelerating engine.
ctoolman posted 08-31-2005 08:52 PM ET (US)
thank you also..like i said i am just looking into this and want to make the best decision possible,yamaha is also on the list but i am very comfortable with honda..
no matter what brand how difficult is a swap?
jak posted 08-31-2005 09:37 PM ET (US)
When I was looking for an engine to power my recently rehabbed 18’ Guardian, one consideration was to power it with a Honda. After talking to a couple of Honda dealers I was informed that Honda would not sell their engines unless they were dealer installed. Don’t know if this is a national policy or just local dealers. I didn’t pursue it any further. I bought a 150hp Yamaha in the crate and hung it myself. Very simple, it’s plug and play. I bought all the rigging on e bay at a considerable savings.
jimh posted 08-31-2005 09:46 PM ET (US)
The high cost and proprietary nature of the Digital Diagnostic Tool from Mercury not only keeps owners from acquiring them, it is a burden on the dealer, too.
The hardest part of the installation work will be hanging the motor on the transom. If you can get that done by the selling dealer, it should not be too difficult to follow the installation instructions. Most manufacturers provide rather complete information. Like the digital diagnostic tools, it is just a matter of getting access to the instructions. Some dealers like to hold this information close to the vest. Demand a copy when you buy your Honda motors, read their advice, and follow the procedures. You ought to be able to accomplish the installation.
The code readers for automotive engines are only cheap and available because of federal legislation that requires precisely that, as well as requiring all engines to adhere to the same standards for digital data communication.
Perry posted 08-31-2005 10:43 PM ET (US)
I had the dealer repower my Whaler with a new Honda BF135 (same motor as the BF150 minus the VTEC). I could have done it myself but since the boat was new, I had the dealer replace the Mercury and its rigging and guages and put on the Honda. I am very pleased with this motor's smooth opeation, performance, fuel economy and quietness.
As for performance, it might be a little slower out of the hole compared to the Optimax's but the top end should be a bit faster with the BF150's. It is said that the BF150 puts out 161 HP at the prop.
I'm not sure where LHG gets his info but the Yamaha F150 and Honda BF150 have almost identical performance. Last June, Powerboat Reports published a comparison between the Yamaha F150 and the Honda BF150 on identical boats. The Yamaha pushed the boat 1 mph faster. They gave a slight edge to the Honda, however, because it was more fuel efficient at cruise and up to 4 decibels quieter in the higher rpm ranges.
LHG posted 08-31-2005 10:51 PM ET (US)
Perry - my information comes from Mercury, who tested the Japanese 4-stroke 150's against the Verado 150. The Yamaha outperformed the Honda, significantly, in acceleration, in their testing.
Perry posted 08-31-2005 11:11 PM ET (US)
LHG, how about a link to this test data? I for one would be interested in reading this comparison. I'm not sure how biased this data is but it should be an interesting read.
From the published performance data on Whaler's web site, the mid range Verado's don't seem to be much if any quicker or faster than the mid range Optimaxes. From first hand experience, the 135/150 Optimaxes don't out perform the new BF135/150 or F150 on a 190 Nantucket.
LHG posted 08-31-2005 11:56 PM ET (US)
The 150 Optimax is a pretty strong performer, but still probably only 150 HP. It would be unlikely that the new yet to be released E-tec 150 would be any faster. So, once again, it looks like 4-stroke technology is quickly outperforming the 2-stroke DFI's, gaining emission superiority over them, allowing the 4-stroke manufacturers to under-rate the HP output in the newer versions. According to a Mercury technician, with 2-stroke Optimax technology, at least, it's pretty hard to meet emissions if your under-rate the HP.
oroseiwhaler posted 09-01-2005 05:53 PM ET (US)
Hi ctcoolman,
it seems that mercury made the 2004/2005 optimax lighter than your model.
Anyway, i still would consider a E-Tec, HDPI or Optimax.
I don't think that a 4-stroke is more reliable than a modern 2-stroke DI.
But why you think about changing rig? This will help us to give you more accurate tips and hints.
Best regards
Chris
oroseiwhaler posted 09-01-2005 06:18 PM ET (US)
ctcoolman,
to swap motors isn't a big job for a person with some manual skills.
You will have some troubles unmounting/mounting the outboards due their weight. Some of this small car workshop cranes will be a good help.
Pulling the old Optimax wireharness could be a tricky job as well. Before pulling it out, knot some small rope on it so you can pull later the new harness from the console to the motor.
If the harness get's tangled in between, then you have to unscrew first the leaning post and the the floor, so you gain access to the cabel channel to untangle it. This is the best way to change the harness, but it's a lot of work by 2 people, but once you have lifted of the floor, you can put all cables in order and check the fuel tank.
Once it is open, you may change the control cables as well...
I did it twice......
good luck
Chris
phatwhaler posted 09-01-2005 07:11 PM ET (US)
I would attempt to utilize the Mercury controls as all of the Honda controls I have used are very clunky and imprecise. It may be the Honda lower units, I'm really not sure. All of my Honda experience is with a pair of 130's and various pairs of 225's. The 130's do feel better than all of the 225's I have run, possibly due to the teleflex dual controls that they connected to. The 225's have been mounted on the back of 25 foot Coast Guard S.A.F.E. boats and they shift poorly. Even when they were new.
If you have the jack, a nice setup would be Hondas with some electronic controls. Mathers, Teleflex, etc..
Personally I don't see what is being accomplished here. Replacing a couple of carbed 150's might make sense, but 150 Optimax's are nice motors. Hondas are nice, but parts availability and service facilities are few and far between.
phatwhaler out.
ctoolman posted 09-02-2005 03:39 PM ET (US)
chris.
the biggest reason is i am pissed right now,the boat has been at the dealer 2 weeks,i have done all the diagnostics and everything mechanical is working properly(i have the manual)the guardian system has got the starboard motor down to 4% power saying the motor is pulling from the oil reserve(motor)oil tank,not the main tank..but its not it is working the way it should so 1 of the sensor or such is giving the wrong info to the computer,if i could get my hands on the DDT i could fix it myself..i told the dealer i do not care about warranty,i will pay for it..i want it fixed(i have a 2 year warranty on both motors)i would pay extra shipping or whatever,i need and want my boat period..it obviously fell on deaf ears since the boat has not been moved(i go by the shop everyday its on my route)..if merc would release the DDT to the average joe i would have already fixed this problem.....i only have the arranty for a catastrophic failure,the nickle and dime stuff i will fix as needed..my time is very valuable to me,we only have so many weekends to enjoy our boats and i want to be able to use everyone of them..
that is why i am looking at repowering,i have owned and worked on alot of honda products,the are very simple and the diagnostics is a breeze,i have been told the out boards are the same way..

thanks for all the tips,i may have to let a dealer here do the swap,all the dealers i have talked to don't seem to like the idea of me doing it just incase something did go wrong,it would be more of a hassle trying to get warranty to fix it..
basically i want something that i can work on and not HAVE to go back to the dealer...like i said i can handle little things going wrong,i don't abuse a warranty..its just insurance if i need it i know i got it..
phatwhaler posted 09-02-2005 04:29 PM ET (US)
One of the benefits to having twin engines is the ability to swap parts back and forth to try and determine a problem. Maybe you can switch some sensors to figure it out. Maybe get a new dealer.
I do agree the the Merc DDT is basically a bunch of B.S as compared to Evinrude's diagnostic software.
Oh well, good luck with your boat.
phatwhaler out.
oroseiwhaler posted 09-02-2005 06:12 PM ET (US)
Hi Phatwaler,
once they made vehicles (cars, boats, airplanes) where any mechanical skilled person could repair it "on the fly" using 5 different wrenches and 2 screwdrivers.
Today we have cleaner, environment friendly, less consuming vehicles, but if you have some trouble then you have real trouble. I agree with the "green factor" of the moder motors but i hate engines and vehicels where i have to call for assistance to repair a minor problem.
Anyway, it seems that today the world without computers won't rule.
From your point of view, changing your rig to 4-stroke is not so a bad idea, but even the 4-strokers have sensors and boardcomputers.....
If you need some advice installing the new motors feel free to ask me. I rigged my '98 Outrage completely by my self, so i guess som hint will be usefull.
best regards
Chris
The Machinery Killer posted 02-22-2006 10:53 PM ET (US)
Hey ctoolman,
Thank you for the information regarding mercury since I do not find it surprising that they are being Richard Craniums about the diagnostic equipment. Additionally, I have heard that they are also very difficult to work with on several parts issues. I will be taking this in consideration when I repower the current toy. After 11 years with Caterpillar, two years with Detroit, and the past four on my own there is a reason I own Cummins and I bet you can guess why.
Semper Paratus,
Joe
andygere posted 02-22-2006 11:13 PM ET (US)
Removing and hanging the motors is not that difficult. I just removed a 200 Mercury from my Outrage 22 by myself. I rented a towable engine hoist from the local rental center, and borrowed the lifting ring (big eye bolt that threads into the flywheel) and had it off an in the back of a truck without breaking a sweat. Removing and restoring the rigging takes longer, but is really nuts and bolts and not all that difficult. For power, you may want to look into the Evinrude E-TEC 150, which are released and shipping to dealers. You can purchase the diagnostic software and cables and check things out yourself should you ever need to. The E-TECs weigh 419 pounds each.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_1295.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_1299.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_1300.jpg
KSFLOORCOVERING posted 02-26-2006 10:18 PM ET (US)
I just wanted to say that I like Honda motors alot and you will be one of probably just a few Outrages with Hondas "which I have never seen" I have a 2000 23 Outrage with twin yamaha ox66 150's and I have only seen one other Outrage with Yamaha. I think your boat will stand out alot more when it comes to selling time with the Hondas because it seams like 99% have Mercs.
ctoolman posted 02-27-2006 06:41 AM ET (US)
jimh,
weight wise,i meant 2 4 stroke 150's compared to 2 2-stroke 150's..
i know 1 big single is lighter than 2 twins.(duh)..
ctoolman posted 02-27-2006 06:42 AM ET (US)
wrong thread!!!how did that happen??

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Author	Topic: 230 OUTRAGE: Re-power AND Self-Install with twin HONDA Four-strokes
ctoolman	posted 08-31-2005 02:22 PM ET (US) I currently have twin 2001 150-HP Mercury OptiMax motors on my 230 Outrage. I would like to move up to twin HONDA BF150. Is this something [I] can do or is it best left for the dealer? I realize it will require change of gauges and cables. I think the steering would work okay. Any input would be helpful. I am mechanically inclined, that is why I want to change. Mercury just doesn't want to help the little guy fix his own stuff. You can't even get the diagnostic equipment to check it over, what a bunch of b.s. I can get a code reader for my auto but not my outboard. I hate downtime.....
oroseiwhaler	posted 08-31-2005 03:16 PM ET (US) Hi ctcoolman, I have a 1998 Outrage 23 with 2 150 HP HDPI Yammies. The Outrage 23 with 2 Outboards mounted is quite heavy on the stern. If you switch to the Hondas it will get's still more heavier. Optimax 150 431 lbs Honda BF 150 485 lbs Difference 54 lbs x 2 = 108 lbs 108 lbs more hanging on the extrem end of a boat will modify how it's "sit" on the water quite in a bad way. Try it by your self: stand on the swimladder hatch and notify how the stern sinks down. My HDPI's weight ist 476 lbs each and i feel that the boat carrys to much weight on the stern. I'd rather get a lighter outboard instead of hanging a heavier 4-stroke O/B on my stern. Also you have to expect 4000 rpm to plane and not 3000 with your actual rig. This means also that the fuelsavings are getting lesser than expected. If you do a lot of trolling on idle rpm's then you will save about 0.75 gallons a hour, but is it worth...? O.K. you will get also no smoke and less rumour, but... I've never will hang a 4-stroke on my boat's back. Best regads Chris
ctoolman	posted 08-31-2005 08:33 PM ET (US) thanks for you response but the sticker on each of my opti's says 464lbs...so if that is true i will only be adding 40 lbs,plus i can dump the 2 oil tanks 3 gallons each,so i really think the weight difference is not going to be much but i will get the most reliable motor,in my experience with honda products...that is my reason for this thought pattern...
LHG	posted 08-31-2005 08:47 PM ET (US) You will lose quite a bit on acceleration. Mercury says the 150 Verado accelerates 50% faster than the Honda 150, something which I would assume your existing Optimaxs will also so. If you must have Japanese 4-stroke power, you would be better off with the Yamaha F150, a faster, more powerful and better accelerating engine.
ctoolman	posted 08-31-2005 08:52 PM ET (US) thank you also..like i said i am just looking into this and want to make the best decision possible,yamaha is also on the list but i am very comfortable with honda.. no matter what brand how difficult is a swap?
jak	posted 08-31-2005 09:37 PM ET (US) When I was looking for an engine to power my recently rehabbed 18’ Guardian, one consideration was to power it with a Honda. After talking to a couple of Honda dealers I was informed that Honda would not sell their engines unless they were dealer installed. Don’t know if this is a national policy or just local dealers. I didn’t pursue it any further. I bought a 150hp Yamaha in the crate and hung it myself. Very simple, it’s plug and play. I bought all the rigging on e bay at a considerable savings.
jimh	posted 08-31-2005 09:46 PM ET (US) The high cost and proprietary nature of the Digital Diagnostic Tool from Mercury not only keeps owners from acquiring them, it is a burden on the dealer, too. The hardest part of the installation work will be hanging the motor on the transom. If you can get that done by the selling dealer, it should not be too difficult to follow the installation instructions. Most manufacturers provide rather complete information. Like the digital diagnostic tools, it is just a matter of getting access to the instructions. Some dealers like to hold this information close to the vest. Demand a copy when you buy your Honda motors, read their advice, and follow the procedures. You ought to be able to accomplish the installation. The code readers for automotive engines are only cheap and available because of federal legislation that requires precisely that, as well as requiring all engines to adhere to the same standards for digital data communication.
Perry	posted 08-31-2005 10:43 PM ET (US) I had the dealer repower my Whaler with a new Honda BF135 (same motor as the BF150 minus the VTEC). I could have done it myself but since the boat was new, I had the dealer replace the Mercury and its rigging and guages and put on the Honda. I am very pleased with this motor's smooth opeation, performance, fuel economy and quietness. As for performance, it might be a little slower out of the hole compared to the Optimax's but the top end should be a bit faster with the BF150's. It is said that the BF150 puts out 161 HP at the prop. I'm not sure where LHG gets his info but the Yamaha F150 and Honda BF150 have almost identical performance. Last June, Powerboat Reports published a comparison between the Yamaha F150 and the Honda BF150 on identical boats. The Yamaha pushed the boat 1 mph faster. They gave a slight edge to the Honda, however, because it was more fuel efficient at cruise and up to 4 decibels quieter in the higher rpm ranges.
LHG	posted 08-31-2005 10:51 PM ET (US) Perry - my information comes from Mercury, who tested the Japanese 4-stroke 150's against the Verado 150. The Yamaha outperformed the Honda, significantly, in acceleration, in their testing.
Perry	posted 08-31-2005 11:11 PM ET (US) LHG, how about a link to this test data? I for one would be interested in reading this comparison. I'm not sure how biased this data is but it should be an interesting read. From the published performance data on Whaler's web site, the mid range Verado's don't seem to be much if any quicker or faster than the mid range Optimaxes. From first hand experience, the 135/150 Optimaxes don't out perform the new BF135/150 or F150 on a 190 Nantucket.
LHG	posted 08-31-2005 11:56 PM ET (US) The 150 Optimax is a pretty strong performer, but still probably only 150 HP. It would be unlikely that the new yet to be released E-tec 150 would be any faster. So, once again, it looks like 4-stroke technology is quickly outperforming the 2-stroke DFI's, gaining emission superiority over them, allowing the 4-stroke manufacturers to under-rate the HP output in the newer versions. According to a Mercury technician, with 2-stroke Optimax technology, at least, it's pretty hard to meet emissions if your under-rate the HP.
oroseiwhaler	posted 09-01-2005 05:53 PM ET (US) Hi ctcoolman, it seems that mercury made the 2004/2005 optimax lighter than your model. Anyway, i still would consider a E-Tec, HDPI or Optimax. I don't think that a 4-stroke is more reliable than a modern 2-stroke DI. But why you think about changing rig? This will help us to give you more accurate tips and hints. Best regards Chris
oroseiwhaler	posted 09-01-2005 06:18 PM ET (US) ctcoolman, to swap motors isn't a big job for a person with some manual skills. You will have some troubles unmounting/mounting the outboards due their weight. Some of this small car workshop cranes will be a good help. Pulling the old Optimax wireharness could be a tricky job as well. Before pulling it out, knot some small rope on it so you can pull later the new harness from the console to the motor. If the harness get's tangled in between, then you have to unscrew first the leaning post and the the floor, so you gain access to the cabel channel to untangle it. This is the best way to change the harness, but it's a lot of work by 2 people, but once you have lifted of the floor, you can put all cables in order and check the fuel tank. Once it is open, you may change the control cables as well... I did it twice...... good luck Chris
phatwhaler	posted 09-01-2005 07:11 PM ET (US) I would attempt to utilize the Mercury controls as all of the Honda controls I have used are very clunky and imprecise. It may be the Honda lower units, I'm really not sure. All of my Honda experience is with a pair of 130's and various pairs of 225's. The 130's do feel better than all of the 225's I have run, possibly due to the teleflex dual controls that they connected to. The 225's have been mounted on the back of 25 foot Coast Guard S.A.F.E. boats and they shift poorly. Even when they were new. If you have the jack, a nice setup would be Hondas with some electronic controls. Mathers, Teleflex, etc.. Personally I don't see what is being accomplished here. Replacing a couple of carbed 150's might make sense, but 150 Optimax's are nice motors. Hondas are nice, but parts availability and service facilities are few and far between. phatwhaler out.
ctoolman	posted 09-02-2005 03:39 PM ET (US) chris. the biggest reason is i am pissed right now,the boat has been at the dealer 2 weeks,i have done all the diagnostics and everything mechanical is working properly(i have the manual)the guardian system has got the starboard motor down to 4% power saying the motor is pulling from the oil reserve(motor)oil tank,not the main tank..but its not it is working the way it should so 1 of the sensor or such is giving the wrong info to the computer,if i could get my hands on the DDT i could fix it myself..i told the dealer i do not care about warranty,i will pay for it..i want it fixed(i have a 2 year warranty on both motors)i would pay extra shipping or whatever,i need and want my boat period..it obviously fell on deaf ears since the boat has not been moved(i go by the shop everyday its on my route)..if merc would release the DDT to the average joe i would have already fixed this problem.....i only have the arranty for a catastrophic failure,the nickle and dime stuff i will fix as needed..my time is very valuable to me,we only have so many weekends to enjoy our boats and i want to be able to use everyone of them.. that is why i am looking at repowering,i have owned and worked on alot of honda products,the are very simple and the diagnostics is a breeze,i have been told the out boards are the same way.. thanks for all the tips,i may have to let a dealer here do the swap,all the dealers i have talked to don't seem to like the idea of me doing it just incase something did go wrong,it would be more of a hassle trying to get warranty to fix it.. basically i want something that i can work on and not HAVE to go back to the dealer...like i said i can handle little things going wrong,i don't abuse a warranty..its just insurance if i need it i know i got it..
phatwhaler	posted 09-02-2005 04:29 PM ET (US) One of the benefits to having twin engines is the ability to swap parts back and forth to try and determine a problem. Maybe you can switch some sensors to figure it out. Maybe get a new dealer. I do agree the the Merc DDT is basically a bunch of B.S as compared to Evinrude's diagnostic software. Oh well, good luck with your boat. phatwhaler out.
oroseiwhaler	posted 09-02-2005 06:12 PM ET (US) Hi Phatwaler, once they made vehicles (cars, boats, airplanes) where any mechanical skilled person could repair it "on the fly" using 5 different wrenches and 2 screwdrivers. Today we have cleaner, environment friendly, less consuming vehicles, but if you have some trouble then you have real trouble. I agree with the "green factor" of the moder motors but i hate engines and vehicels where i have to call for assistance to repair a minor problem. Anyway, it seems that today the world without computers won't rule. From your point of view, changing your rig to 4-stroke is not so a bad idea, but even the 4-strokers have sensors and boardcomputers..... If you need some advice installing the new motors feel free to ask me. I rigged my '98 Outrage completely by my self, so i guess som hint will be usefull. best regards Chris
The Machinery Killer	posted 02-22-2006 10:53 PM ET (US) Hey ctoolman, Thank you for the information regarding mercury since I do not find it surprising that they are being Richard Craniums about the diagnostic equipment. Additionally, I have heard that they are also very difficult to work with on several parts issues. I will be taking this in consideration when I repower the current toy. After 11 years with Caterpillar, two years with Detroit, and the past four on my own there is a reason I own Cummins and I bet you can guess why. Semper Paratus, Joe
andygere	posted 02-22-2006 11:13 PM ET (US) Removing and hanging the motors is not that difficult. I just removed a 200 Mercury from my Outrage 22 by myself. I rented a towable engine hoist from the local rental center, and borrowed the lifting ring (big eye bolt that threads into the flywheel) and had it off an in the back of a truck without breaking a sweat. Removing and restoring the rigging takes longer, but is really nuts and bolts and not all that difficult. For power, you may want to look into the Evinrude E-TEC 150, which are released and shipping to dealers. You can purchase the diagnostic software and cables and check things out yourself should you ever need to. The E-TECs weigh 419 pounds each. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_1295.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_1299.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ IMG_1300.jpg
KSFLOORCOVERING	posted 02-26-2006 10:18 PM ET (US) I just wanted to say that I like Honda motors alot and you will be one of probably just a few Outrages with Hondas "which I have never seen" I have a 2000 23 Outrage with twin yamaha ox66 150's and I have only seen one other Outrage with Yamaha. I think your boat will stand out alot more when it comes to selling time with the Hondas because it seams like 99% have Mercs.
ctoolman	posted 02-27-2006 06:41 AM ET (US) jimh, weight wise,i meant 2 4 stroke 150's compared to 2 2-stroke 150's.. i know 1 big single is lighter than 2 twins.(duh)..
ctoolman	posted 02-27-2006 06:42 AM ET (US) wrong thread!!!how did that happen??