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Author Topic:   Smallest safe anchor for a 16 classic
17 bodega posted 10-29-2005 11:39 PM ET (US)   Profile for 17 bodega   Send Email to 17 bodega  
What is the smallest anchor that will hold a 16 footer or MONTAUK style boat? Does anyone have experience with a "Naval" style anchor? My first consideration is safety.

Teak Oil posted 10-30-2005 10:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Are you looking for a spare or the main anchor? I took the biggest anchor that would still fit in my anchor locker, had to do a little grinding to make it fit, and it works great. It is a Danforth style anchor. I still have room for plenty of rode, at least 150' plus chain.

I can't see any advantage whatsoever to going smaller unless you want a backup to keep the boat from moving back and forth

Chuck Tribolet posted 10-30-2005 11:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
Navy anchors don't hold well in sand and mud.

I've got about a 10 pound Navy anchor out in the garage. You
can have it. I found it diving. It a little rusty but
still has galvanizing. The chain was really rusty. And
there were three really nice SS shackles on it. Tossed the
chain, kept the shackles, been trying to find a home for
the anchor.

Me, I'd get get a five pound Danforth Hi-Tensile. Actually,
I did. Works great, not very heavy.


Chuck

quickfarms posted 10-31-2005 10:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for quickfarms  Send Email to quickfarms     
Your anchor size is related to two major factors.

The size of the boat and the conditions on which you will be anchoring.

Your anchor rode should be 5 to 7 times the debth of the water that you expect to anchor in, this is for a danforth style anchor.

Your anchor selection is related to the bottom in which you are anchoring to.

Navy anchors work by there weight.

In most conditions a danforth will hold quite well, but it requires a considerable amount of rode to work well.

Most larger boats cary two or three sets of anchors, rodes and chains. They cary the main anchor which is rigged and ready. They cary a lunch hook, which is used just for short times in calm conditions. If they are a cruiser they will also cary a storm anchor, which is the largest.

On my outrage I cary two anchors, on my 13 I cary one. This is in addition to a sand spike that is on each boat.

Only the main anchor on the outrage has any chain on it.

I do not feel that chain is necessary on lunch hooks.

Chuck Tribolet posted 10-31-2005 10:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
I use a little 5 pound Danforth on my Montauk. Holds just
fine with 2-3x scope. I do have a reasonable amount of chain (13').

But make sure the chain doesn't beat the anchor to the
bottom. If the anchor fouls in the chain, it won't dig in
and will just drag. I wind the line through the bow chock
in a sort W shape that puts just enough resistance on the
line as the anchor goes down so the anchor hits first.


Chuck

Buckda posted 10-31-2005 10:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Conditions on top are most important, conditions on the bottom are second most important, and then you make a decision on what type of anchor to fit those likely scenarios.

A 17' Montauk at anchor in a very calm bay fishing for perch or the like can be held steady with a Coffee can filled with concrete, though I don't recommend this.

I used a 15 lb navy anchor with my 15' Sport, and now use that anchor as a backup (generally, just to keep the boat from swinging on the main, bruce anchor at calm anchorages, or to run to shore and wrap around a tree when anchoring just offshore).

The West Advisor offers a great resource for choosing an anchor that will best suit your needs.

Personally, I like the Bruce or "claw/plow" style anchors for most conditions, though mine doesn't work well in heavy weeds, it will work very well in gravel and sand, and resets very easily to a wind shift. It has moderate holding power in mud. I use only 5 feet of chain rode, but plan to upgrade that to more like 12 feet to provide additional holding power.

Good luck.

Dave

Fishcop posted 11-01-2005 09:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
Hey 17,

What do you have now?

Get the 5 pound Danforth style with 10' of chain. Get yourself a 50' and 100' length of line (larger diameter is easier to handle) and some good shackles. It should all fit in your forward locker.

Keep the 50' attached to the anchor and when going offshore, attach the extra 100' when needed with shackles.

As Chuck stated, keep tension on the line until the anchor hits the bottom. Go practice on a calm day at Bodega or San Pablo Bay. Get a place with some current and try setting the anchor in various depths of water.

I have to admit that on more than one occasion, I have seen rebar anchors and truckers rope used to hold Classic Whalers in some pretty rough stuff.

Call me if you need help.

Andy

Chuck Tribolet posted 11-01-2005 09:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
Why two pieces of line? Why not just one 150'? Or more?

I don't have any problem with 3/8" line. I can get 250' and
the chain in a cut down pickle barrel in the bow locker.
And there's still run for a couple of fenders and 100' of
poly current line (trailed behind the anchored boats so a
diver who surfaces down current can pull themself back to the
boat instead of kicking.


Chuck

17 bodega posted 11-02-2005 01:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Thanks all.

I know how many hours Andy and Chuck have logged at anchor, so the 5 lb danforth sounds to be the answer. Well...I know it's a lot anyway! Divers certainly use anchors plenty. I have held my 17 footer with a mushroom anchor I got at the flea market in a strong current, but I know that won't get it in a life or death situation in ocean conditions. I still have the anchor I got with the boat, which is a danforth type but it is a bit large for the anchor locker, and I was looking to use the smallest available that will do the job.

I am looking at taking a diving class with my soon to be 14 year old son this spring, so I am getting prepared.

Fishcop posted 11-04-2005 12:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
[Why two pieces of line? Why not just one 150'? Or more?]

Just my choice for ease of handling in shallow depths, emergency tow line, extra line if needed on the boat, etc.

I believe each boat owner should use what they feel comfortable with and what works for their application.

Safe anchoring!

Andy

17 bodega posted 11-04-2005 04:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Guys,

One more question...
you know the rope couplers? The thingies that screw on to complet a chain link? What is used to keep the link from coming unscrewed? I see there is a hole in the pin that screws in to complete the link. Any ideas? Also, is there a procedure under which someone can make a good strong loop with the plastic piece on the rope? Do you guys get my question? Could be my ADD kicking in..

Steve

kingfish posted 11-04-2005 04:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
That would be a shackle, and the threaded pin can be kept from turning free by turning it in really tightly with a wrench (not so positive) or by running a piece of stainless steel wire through the hole in the end of the pin and twisting the wire back to the shackle (more positive). You also might be able to secure the pin with a cable tie, but in your salt water environment, you wouldn't want to use plain steel wire or it will rust.
Chuck Tribolet posted 11-04-2005 05:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
Shackles are usually seized with a peice of monel metal wire,
not stainless. Just as rustproof. I use cable ties --
too many holes in the hands from the wires.

The loop in the end should be spliced. And I'd use an SS
thimble, not plastic.

And get some of the plastic length markers so you KONW how
much scope you have out, not guess. I know of one Monterey
private dive boat that drifted away because they unknowingly
shorts-scoped it. Nobody died, but one diver was in the water
about five hours.


Chuck

elaelap posted 11-04-2005 05:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
Securing the pin in the shackle is called 'mousing', guys, and it's mandatory if you're going to be anchoring for any time at all, if you'll be leaving your boat, and/or if there is any hazardous condition or iffy weather. I don't know why anyone would just try to tighten the pin with a wrench and leave it that way without mousing...nothing to be gained and a great deal (like your boat or your life) to be lost.

You're lucky you were able to recover your mushroom anchor without a great deal of trouble, Steve...they're designed more for semi-permanent moorings than for day-to-day use, and they're hard as hell--or impossible--to break out if they've become buried deep in mud or sand.

That 5-7 x the depth rule of thumb regarding scope is valid for larger displacement craft but probably overkill for small planing motorboats...I think it applies more to full-keeled sailboats than to shallow draft, low freeboard (thus low windage) boats like Whalers. However, better too much scope than too little, and the stronger the breeze, tidal currents and waves, the longer the scope.

Tony

17 bodega posted 11-04-2005 05:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Thanks for the info guys... good info. I only deployed the mushroom in non critical fishing drifts with the danforth out and ready if necessary. It is acutally a mushroom with the three "flat hooks" rather than the rounded mushrooms that are fully round.

I will try to find some written and graphic instruction for installing the thimble. The ideas about the SS wire make sense... Thanks

minitauk85 posted 11-04-2005 06:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for minitauk85  Send Email to minitauk85     
elaelap- would you please describe the procedure for "mousing"? thanks-k
elaelap posted 11-04-2005 08:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
There's no magic to it, k, and I'll bet everyone has a slightly different method...use wire or strong whipping twine through the hole in the threaded shackle pin (which I'm sure has a proper name which I can't remember and I'm too lazy and hungry right now to look up in Chapman's) and weave it back and forth around the rounded 'end' of the shackle, back through the hole in the pin, around the shackle itself again, etc. Twist the wire to secure and use maybe a double reef knot with the twine. Wire is better than whipping twine because of chafeing possibilities for the latter on the sea bed. On the other hand, you can quickly 'unmouse' if you have to with your knife if you've used twine. It doesn't take much to prevent that shackle pin from becoming unthreaded, even though you've properly dabbed a little grease on the pin's threads before screwing it in. I sure wouldn't advise tightening the pin as much as possible with a wrench (pace, John) because you never know when or why you might want to get the thing apart swiftly. Hope this helps--it takes much longer to discuss and it sounds much more complicated than it is...mousing that is; it's just another automatic chore and something to glance at every now and then to make sure it's still sound.

Tony

By the way, downEasters and other strange folks and some oldtimers pronounce 'shackle', 'shay-cul'...it's sorta like saying 'Cuh-tayma' rather than 'Cuh-tahma'--I became comfortable with the latter when I owned a Katama, but the few times I've said 'shay-cul' around West Coast sailors I've been given some strange looks ;-)

cajunman posted 11-05-2005 04:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for cajunman  Send Email to cajunman     

Hey guys,
just ran across this strings of posts, maybe you have an answer for me,,

The Montauk i just got has an Anchor Mate system,, Specifically the AnchorMate ST.
http://www.worthco.com/marine/anchorii.html

Has anyone had any experience with this?,, the max. weight is an 18# anchor. Judging from the previous posts, this should be enough for my Montauk. Teh anchormate is filled with 1/4" nylon braided rope.

Tks
rich

Teak Oil posted 11-06-2005 10:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Unless you are anchoring during hurricanes, I dont know why anyone would want an 18# anchor for a Montauk, system or not
elaelap posted 11-06-2005 12:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
Some lucky day I hope I get the chance to head out with Chuck Tribolet and get a first hand lesson in small motorboat anchoring. He and his diving pals--and let's not forget 'Admiral Linda'--are out there year 'round anchoring in relatively lumpy seas, and there's nothing like this kind of experience to really learn a seagoing skill. I rarely anchor my little Whaler skiff, and I've been thinking about the information I so casually throw out about this occasionally critical skill. Most of my 'knowledge' about anchoring comes from experience in a series of small sailboats, and from reading reports by others and in books like Chapman's. This really isn't the same thing as direct experience in the kind of boats we discuss at this website, so I should apologize for asserting as first-hand knowledge information that is made up of conjecture combined with limited experience. This comment is caused because I just re-read my post above about proper scope for anchoring Whalers. I might have been correct about non-displacement, low-windage hulls needing less scope, but the way I stated the concept makes it sound more authoritative than it should...please take that comment and most others I make about motor boating with a grain of salt and with the understanding that I only have three years of experience as a motorcraft sailor.

Tony

kingfish posted 11-06-2005 03:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Rich-

As Teak Oil observed, an 18 pound anchor is extreme overkill for a Montauk, and is a lot more mass and trouble than I would want to contend with on a 16' boat (I've had 2 Montauks).

You can easily (as can Steve) get a quick fix on recommended anchor sizes indexed against boat sizes from most anchor manufacturer's websites. I use either an 8# Danforth-style anchor or a 4# Fortress anchor on my Outrage 22, depending upon what I'm up to, and when I'm bottom fishing offshore I bring along an anchor retriever, because I've had both of those anchors hang up so I could not retrieve them without external help.

Moreover, if I were you, I'd remove that whole Anchormate system to get rid of unecessary clutter. In my opinion, that rig might be something to consider on a rowboat in a pond.

No offense.

John

cajunman posted 11-06-2005 07:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for cajunman  Send Email to cajunman     
no offense taken,, i only mentioned the max weight for the Anchormate to give everyone a sense of what i'm working with,, it came with the boat, i didn't buy it,,, i'm simply trying to determine if it's a usable option. That's why i also posted the link to the site so you could see what it looks like.

Funny you knock the weight of the anchor as "extreme overkill" then suggest to use the system on a row boat. The statements don't seem to jive, but like i said, no offense taken,
just wanted a little help
rich

kingfish posted 11-06-2005 07:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Rich-

Sorry I wasn't more clear-

If you were motoring around and fishing on some quiet ponds somewhere and wanted to be able to raise and lower a 4# anchor without getting up from where you're sitting and walking five feet forward to the bow to handle the anchor the old fashioned way, I guess it would be OK. I don't think it would do however for all sorts of reasons if you were anchoring in any kind of wind or chop, or were needing to rely on your anchor and line in any kind of emergency situation. I would not be willing to stake my Montauk on 1/4" line, and an 18# anchor would normally be mated with at least 1/2" line and used for a 40' or 50' boat. The combination of 1/4" line and an 18# anchor just doesn't make sense to me. To anchor a Montauk effectively you should looking at 3/8" line and about an 8# anchor if it as a Danforth style.

John

Chuck Tribolet posted 11-06-2005 11:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
An 18 pound river anchor (like a mushroom with notches) would
be entirely inadequate for a Montauk in sand. One came with
my boat. At the end of the dive, I'd frequently track down
the boat by following the anchor tracks in the sand.

The size of Danforth required is a function of which
Danforth family the anchor came from. They have three families
of Danforths:
Standard, Hi-Tensile, and DeepSet II. For a Montauk:

Standard: 5 pounds, good to 17'.
Hi-Tensile: 5 pounds, good to 31'.
DeepSet II: 5 pounds, good to 28'.

For a Montauk, it's all the same weight, but the "headroom"
varies. Note that the Hi-Tensile and DeepSet II are more
expensive.

The dimensions are pretty much the same, with the Hi-Tensile
being a touch bigger. To me that says it's the physical
strength, not holding power, that counts.


Chuck

MIEChasSC posted 11-07-2005 03:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for MIEChasSC  Send Email to MIEChasSC     
I agree with Chuck...the "holding power" number is only part ot the equation. I had a 4# Guardian (cheap version of Fortress) with 10' of SS chain rode. Worked fine for the first few years. But after a few incidents when it got pulled-on pretty hard, the geometry changed. After that, it tended to "walk" on the bottom (due to distortion of one of the flukes, and the cross-bar that they're attached to). Lost my faith in aluminum anchors, so I switched to a 5# Danforth Hi-Tensile. No problems since. Much quicker to set the hook, and I believe much less prone to distortion when under stress.
Chuck Tribolet posted 11-07-2005 08:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
I've bent the "flukes" on my 5# Danforth Hi-Tensile a couple
of times trying to unstick using Evinrude. I just shove it in
the bench vise when I get home and bend it back. Kawika has
bent the rods on his.


Chuck

MIEChasSC posted 11-08-2005 06:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for MIEChasSC  Send Email to MIEChasSC     
Chuck. Yup, I tried the same vice, and mallet, trick with the Guardian. Got close, but not quite factory results. And it seemed to distort more easily after that (material fatigue or just an inaccurate perception on my part?).
So far though, no trips to the vice with the Danforth.
And to think that my wife said I was incapable of cutting-back back on my vices! :)
Mumbo Jumbo posted 11-10-2005 12:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mumbo Jumbo  Send Email to Mumbo Jumbo     
You have received excellent information from a number of experiened boaters. I have a 16' EastPort (Mountauk precursor) and below are the ground tackle setups that have served me well for 15 years:

As a primary anchor I use 4.4 Bruce anchor with four feet of 3/16" galvanized chain and 150 feeet of 3/8" three strand anchor rode. The chain is shackled (the shackle is "moused" with monel wire) to the anchor. The rode is spliced directly to the chain. This Bruce assembly fits in the anchor locker of my Eastport with room to spare. My back-up anchor is a five pound Danforth Hi-Tensile with four feet of 3/16" chain and 300' of 3/8" three strand nylon rode. The back-up anchor is mounted on the port siderail using a WhiteCap railmount.

If I were you, I would donate the mushroom anchor to a fresh water river fisherman and then purchase adequate ground tackle using the information in the posts in this thread.

aja posted 11-10-2005 09:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for aja  Send Email to aja     
Great information about setting up ground tackle here in this thread! However, one item not mentioned yet are swivels between the rode and chain. I have installed one on our sailboat but not on our Whaler anchor rode. Maybe these boats are light enough that they don't impart a significant twisting force on the three strand rode when loaded up, but I would be curious to hear if others think they would be of any use on a boat like this.
Chuck Tribolet posted 11-10-2005 10:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
I haven't seen a need for a swivel.


Chuck

17 bodega posted 11-11-2005 11:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
It would be great to see some links to pictures of members setups with regard to anchors, thimbles, and especially the manner in which the shackles are "moused". Even a link to the equipment on the West Marine or retiail dealers website.
Mumbo Jumbo posted 11-13-2005 03:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mumbo Jumbo  Send Email to Mumbo Jumbo     
You might want to buy this book to answer your questions: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/Buckra/Chapmans.jpg $40 at Amazon.com.

It will explain many things; it has an excellent sections on anchoring and on cordage, knots, and other ground tackle subjects. Is is worth the $40 for a new copy. A used copy can be had for much less.

17 bodega posted 11-13-2005 08:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Thanks for that.. I'll look for it.. It looks like a complete volume of all things boating and nautical.

Chuck Tribolet posted 11-13-2005 11:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
Chapman is $29.99 at West.


And here's a picture of an appropriate anchor for a Montauk:

http://www.garlic.com/~triblet/swell/images/03cx14s.jpg

They fellow holding the anchor is Kawika, who posts here
occasionally. ;-)


Chuck

kingfish posted 11-14-2005 08:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
That's what I'm talkin' about!
17 bodega posted 11-14-2005 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Heh... looks like that might hold.. and provide a place to hide from the landlord. Is that inside a dive park? I talked to a diver this weekend who said that the Monterey dive parks are better than anything he saw in the Carribean.
Chuck Tribolet posted 11-14-2005 01:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
The only real dive park Monterey has is Pt. Lobos, and being
a dive park is only a secondary job there (primarys are a
land-based "reserve" for hiking and critter watching, and
a marine no-take zone. You can only dive about 10% of the
marine area.

The anchors are in an open area.
http://www.garlic.com/~triblet/swell/gps.html


Chuck

17 bodega posted 11-15-2005 12:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Wow... that is a lot of data to digest. I can see your point about needing to know all the features of your gps unit. I only use the "map" screen and the data screen with the numbers for when party boat captains are calling out numbers where the fish are biting. Even then, I have difficulty knowing which way to head to get to the desired numbers. A fancy chartplotter would probably help... maybe next year. I should probably read the manual to my unit to utilize all the features.

Somehow I was under the impression that there were lots of dive parks in Monterey.. I was looking at the dive map they sell at the shops, where they list all the good locations.

Chuck Tribolet posted 11-15-2005 01:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
Lots of dive SPOTS, few PARKS.

Even the non-chartplotter GPSs will let you program in numbers
for a waypoint, say GoTo the waypoint, and follow the arrow
there. And many of them will have a screen where you see
the waypoints and your poisition, like a chartplotter without
the chart. I actually run my Garmin 162 in that mode because
turning on the chart slows the updates WAAAAAY down. Not
a problem at large scale, but zoomed in it's spending all its
time repainting the chart, even tough the chart has zero detail
where I am.


Chuck

elaelap posted 11-15-2005 09:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
C'mon Steve, it's not rocket science--higher latitude numbers mean head north, higher longitude numbers mean head out to sea, and vice versa. You sure seem to figure it out somehow, since I can't go anywhere, any time, without seeing you and that sweet little 16 foot smirkless Katama showing up and catching the fish that were meant for me ;-)

Tony

17 bodega posted 11-15-2005 10:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
I noticed a new Magellan unit at Costco last night. $350 with a mail in rebate of $50. I'm not sure if it has upgrades for marine use. It includes some fancy topographic software but no marine charts.

The screen that confuses me is the round screen similar to the old style loran. I would like to be able to use that one correctly.

elaelap posted 11-15-2005 04:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
My first GPS didn't have an internal chart...the cheap little thing just showed waypoints I marked, lat/long numbers, speed over ground, and not much else. I cut up a chart and laminated a portion perhaps one foot by two feet showing the area from Pt Reyes to Pt Arena and out maybe 30 or so miles. I then used a waterproof Sharpie to mark key locations with lat/long numbers, and kept adding new marks as I checked out their exact numbers on my GPS. In some ways it worked even better than my next GPS, a handheld Magellen with an internal chart, and my current chart plotter with full-bore charting capabilities and a 'big' (5x6") monochrome screen.

Tony

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