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Author Topic:   Battery-Free Motors

boatdryver posted 01-10-2006 06:12 PM ET (US)
I think it was Buckda who mentioned in a recent posting that for offshore work he is a big fan of twin engines that will keep running if the batteries [fail] due to swamping, fire, etc.. That's a really great point.
With the trend toward less polluting motors, where does that leave us [in terms of motors which can operate without a battery]? The small four-stroke motors don't need a battery. Do the HPDI motors need a functioning battery? How about the bigger four-stroke motors? Once they are running do they still need 12 volts from the battery to keep running?
seahorse posted 01-10-2006 06:30 PM ET (US)

Of all the new motors, only the Evinrude E-TEC will run without a battery. They use a "magneto" system that depends on the flywheel magnets to operate the EMM, ignition, and injectors.
The E-TEC adds another layer of dependability for the offshore crowd who would be in a world of hurt if their batteries should get a saltwater bath, come loose and break a cable or terminal, or have internally shorted cells.
bigjohn1 posted 01-10-2006 07:53 PM ET (US)
The owner's manual for my 2004 Merc 115efi says the motor can be started using the emergency pull cord in the event the battery dies. Admitedly, I have not gone out and independently verified this in my driveway just to be sure. Am I to assume my manual is incorrect and they are BSing me on this?
captbone posted 01-10-2006 08:27 PM ET (US)
Mercury makes a 40hp 4 stroke carb that can be bought pull cord only with no battery. Their new 30/25hp EFI 4 stroke Mercury can also be had with only pull cord start with no battery also. Just my 2 cents
boatdryver posted 01-10-2006 09:42 PM ET (US)
Bigjohn, there may be a difference in hand starting your motor if the battery is "low" versus essentially no battery at all in the loop in the event of swamping, fire, etc.. I'm hoping one of the mechanicslike sosmerc on the site can help us out on this one. Its interesting that there is a Merc out there with EFI that will run sans battery, and that the magnetos on the E tec can power the computers. In Mexico I have seen lots of pretty large Merc and Yamaha outboardsoperated in the surf on the fishing skiffs, all rope started. I assume they are all 2 strokes
Buckda posted 01-11-2006 12:01 PM ET (US)
Rope starting with no battery power and the ability to continue to operate without a battery were two of the critereon I included when toying with the idea of repowering my 18' Outrage with twin engines. Because the boat is rather small in the world of twin-engined craft, weight was also a major factor in the process, along with availability of qualified Mechanics in my planned usage area, should a problem occur.
That process really narrowed things down a bit for me and I was left with the proven, and very good Mercury OptiMax engine line, the tried-and-true "Classic" carburated two-strokes (at the time still available from Mercury, Yamaha and Johnson, but in limited and declining quantities) and the "new" E-TEC engines that had just been released from BRP under the Evinrude brand.
I've selected Evinrude; for a variety of reasons.
One of the contributing reasons was the fact that this was a very clean motor that was on a tried and true 2-stroke platform that provides the increased torque and the lightweight package that current 4-strokes can't yet match.
The "clean" factor narrowed the field to OptiMax and E-TEC. The only "weakness" in the Mercury engine is the reliance on external battery power. That left me, in my particular circumstances and critereon, with E-TEC. I'm now walking my loan officer through that same process, since there are less-expensive repower options for an 18' Outrage than twin E-TECs, especially when changing brands requires new controls, instruments and rigging; and I could jump into a single E-TEC 150 or a Mercury or Yamaha 4-stroke for about 80 percent (or less) of the cost of twins.
The bottom line is that today, twin engines aren't really necessary for the vast majority of boaters operating an 18' Outrage - and even in my case, probably only necessary a few times each year when I do one of my "excursion" or "expedition" types of trips, but I'd like the greater freedom and peace of mind that twins will provide so I can do solo lake crossings, etc. Things I wouldn't do alone with a single motor, no matter how new it was.
Dave
bigjohn1 posted 01-11-2006 05:09 PM ET (US)
I guess what kind of stumps me after reading all the great input is the statement that E-tec is the only motor which will run sans battery. If its true, so be it but is that really a fact?
Dave - I understand the thought process you used and after taking everything into account like you did, I'd likely have done the same thing you are doing (go with E-tec).
Buckda posted 01-11-2006 05:39 PM ET (US)
John -
Yeah. I'm trying to be careful, because for other applications and uses, there are a lot more options available to people. In particular, for a single-engine setup, I was interested in the Yamaha F150 and the Verado 150, as well as the E-TEC 150, of which we didn't really have any information yet, just pure speculation, until very recently; but in theory, it was on my radar and in my thoughts.
And...for how I use the boat most of the time, I would even say that the 130 / 140 HP motors would have qualified for a close look. People report being very happy with that BF140 from Suzuki.
I don't know what the story is on your 115 HP Merc and the battery usage.
Here's a link to the original saga thread; please don't resurrect it unless you have something of significant value to add, since it's rather old.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/010042.html
cc13 posted 01-11-2006 05:52 PM ET (US)
Will the modern larger engines run without a battery? That is a question Im curious about as well. I have jump started a car with no battery and driven 15-20 miles, I have been on a plane that was hand cranked (not enough juice to operate the clutch) and flown, I have been on motorcycles with no/low battery power, lawnmowers and every other sort of small engine run with no battery, If I can get it started by handcranking, jump starting, etc., are you all saying that the modern outboards will not continue to run untilswitched off? If not, why do they come with pull cords?
Buckda posted 01-11-2006 06:05 PM ET (US)
I'm saying that in the circumstance that I faced, with re-power, I was down to two engines: OptiMax and E-Tec.
OptiMax has some pretty hefty battery requirements, and as I understand it, relies on an external battery source to continue to operate the motor (perhaps the DFI system?). There had been reports of OptiMax owners experiencing problems with the operation of the motor, and the mechanic found the problem was tied to the batteries.
E-TEC can be pull-started and will run with NO BATTERY attached. Ever.
It may be the case that a 4-Stroke motor can be pull-started and then will continue to function properly without any external source of power. My understanding is that it was more of a "routing" of electricity needs, i.e. through a battery, than the engine's ability to produce electricity sufficient to keep it operational. The problem was that the systems run on electrical power, not a magneto, so the charging current is routed out to the battery and the battery pulses electricity to run the ignition. In the DFI E-TEC, the electrical needs of the DFI and other systems are routed directly, thereby bypassing the need for an external battery source.
fourdfish posted 01-11-2006 06:50 PM ET (US)
cc13-- Was that jump start or push start by popping the clutch!
Used to do that when we were kids! Don't think that is possible anymore because of the computer.
From what I was led to believe, you need a battery on the
Optimax because of the Orbital system! Not sure about that.
The Judge posted 01-12-2006 12:51 PM ET (US)
Being able top run without a battery and being able to run without a battery WITHOUT doing any damage is the question. My 225 Ocen Runner('94) will run without a battery but like ALL outboards(except E-tec and maybe some newer ones) the voltage regulator will fry. This is also true if you switch the batteries while running or disconnect one of the cables. You CAN switch from battery 1 to #2 w/o frying it IF you do NOT pass "off" while doing so.
Now if I might ask this one question....How many times or people do you all know that have had their batteries washed overboard or damaged due to fire that this is REALLY a concern? Personally if either happened, I would be happy to be alive and would not give a rat's behind if I was going to burn up a regulator. If these are REAL concerns, then have you considered an alternative fuel source? What happens if your fuel gets contaminated with sea water? ANY EFI engine will not run for long with water being fed through it's injectors...period.
I agree with many about twin's VS single if you are doing mainly offshore excursions, etc but the main concern is fuel. If you are running twins for "safety" sake and only have one tank, you just removed the "safety" blanket. Twins without twin tanks is worse than a single and a kicker with a seperate 6gal tank.
Teak Oil posted 01-12-2006 06:24 PM ET (US)
Nick I couldnt have said it any better, well put
deepwater posted 01-12-2006 06:32 PM ET (US)
just for fun ,i once pull started my 88spl,it can be done ,i dont like it but it can be done ,,my batteries are well kept and clean so i dont have to pull start it again ,ever ,never i hope , have i mentioned my outrigger poles dbl as sail masts ;)
Buckda posted 01-12-2006 06:49 PM ET (US)
Biggie -
You've never had a battery die on you? How about short out?
Re: water in the fuel - this is a valid point, and a good reason to spend the extra money for a RACOR fuel filter/water separator with the clear bowl so you can draw off water.
Hopefully, since your fuel pick-up is drawing from low in the tank, you'll notice the problem of water in your fuel before you get offshore.
I'd argue that if the rest of your system is weak enough to allow water, when swamped to come into your tank, your boat is not adequately prepared to be offshore.
All that said, I agree. LHG's method of having extended range plastic deck tanks for long-distance cruising is a good option in this case.
Overall, I have to agree, twins are more than most people need, unless you venture offshore all the time, or are a freak like I am, you really have no NEED for them...it all then comes down to what you want.
I dunno...how many times have you seen or been on a boat that has sunk at sea? I know it can happen and does, but dang it, I can't seem to remember one time that I witnessed or experienced it. Yet I sacrificed storage and some other creature comforts to buy an unsinkable hull.
When's the last time that you NEEDED your pfd? How about your FLARES? When's the last time you made a distress call on your VHF? Used your fire extinguisher on the boat?
I'm guessing that if you have an instance in mind for any of the above, it's not for more than two items, and not more than once or twice in all your years of boating.
You don't buy twins or any other safety equipment for "everyday," You buy them for one particular day when you'd give your left nut for the power to get you off the water as fast as possible, or to put out that fire on your deck, or to call for help because you don't know what to do and your daughter fell overboard, hit her head and is bleeding and unconscious, or to get the attention of that passing freighter in the middle of the night because you never did watch that Tom Hanks movie and are sure you'd die on a deserted island, if you even made it to land.
Right?

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Author	Topic: Battery-Free Motors
boatdryver	posted 01-10-2006 06:12 PM ET (US) I think it was Buckda who mentioned in a recent posting that for offshore work he is a big fan of twin engines that will keep running if the batteries [fail] due to swamping, fire, etc.. That's a really great point. With the trend toward less polluting motors, where does that leave us [in terms of motors which can operate without a battery]? The small four-stroke motors don't need a battery. Do the HPDI motors need a functioning battery? How about the bigger four-stroke motors? Once they are running do they still need 12 volts from the battery to keep running?
seahorse	posted 01-10-2006 06:30 PM ET (US) Of all the new motors, only the Evinrude E-TEC will run without a battery. They use a "magneto" system that depends on the flywheel magnets to operate the EMM, ignition, and injectors. The E-TEC adds another layer of dependability for the offshore crowd who would be in a world of hurt if their batteries should get a saltwater bath, come loose and break a cable or terminal, or have internally shorted cells.
bigjohn1	posted 01-10-2006 07:53 PM ET (US) The owner's manual for my 2004 Merc 115efi says the motor can be started using the emergency pull cord in the event the battery dies. Admitedly, I have not gone out and independently verified this in my driveway just to be sure. Am I to assume my manual is incorrect and they are BSing me on this?
captbone	posted 01-10-2006 08:27 PM ET (US) Mercury makes a 40hp 4 stroke carb that can be bought pull cord only with no battery. Their new 30/25hp EFI 4 stroke Mercury can also be had with only pull cord start with no battery also. Just my 2 cents
boatdryver	posted 01-10-2006 09:42 PM ET (US) Bigjohn, there may be a difference in hand starting your motor if the battery is "low" versus essentially no battery at all in the loop in the event of swamping, fire, etc.. I'm hoping one of the mechanicslike sosmerc on the site can help us out on this one. Its interesting that there is a Merc out there with EFI that will run sans battery, and that the magnetos on the E tec can power the computers. In Mexico I have seen lots of pretty large Merc and Yamaha outboardsoperated in the surf on the fishing skiffs, all rope started. I assume they are all 2 strokes
Buckda	posted 01-11-2006 12:01 PM ET (US) Rope starting with no battery power and the ability to continue to operate without a battery were two of the critereon I included when toying with the idea of repowering my 18' Outrage with twin engines. Because the boat is rather small in the world of twin-engined craft, weight was also a major factor in the process, along with availability of qualified Mechanics in my planned usage area, should a problem occur. That process really narrowed things down a bit for me and I was left with the proven, and very good Mercury OptiMax engine line, the tried-and-true "Classic" carburated two-strokes (at the time still available from Mercury, Yamaha and Johnson, but in limited and declining quantities) and the "new" E-TEC engines that had just been released from BRP under the Evinrude brand. I've selected Evinrude; for a variety of reasons. One of the contributing reasons was the fact that this was a very clean motor that was on a tried and true 2-stroke platform that provides the increased torque and the lightweight package that current 4-strokes can't yet match. The "clean" factor narrowed the field to OptiMax and E-TEC. The only "weakness" in the Mercury engine is the reliance on external battery power. That left me, in my particular circumstances and critereon, with E-TEC. I'm now walking my loan officer through that same process, since there are less-expensive repower options for an 18' Outrage than twin E-TECs, especially when changing brands requires new controls, instruments and rigging; and I could jump into a single E-TEC 150 or a Mercury or Yamaha 4-stroke for about 80 percent (or less) of the cost of twins. The bottom line is that today, twin engines aren't really necessary for the vast majority of boaters operating an 18' Outrage - and even in my case, probably only necessary a few times each year when I do one of my "excursion" or "expedition" types of trips, but I'd like the greater freedom and peace of mind that twins will provide so I can do solo lake crossings, etc. Things I wouldn't do alone with a single motor, no matter how new it was. Dave
bigjohn1	posted 01-11-2006 05:09 PM ET (US) I guess what kind of stumps me after reading all the great input is the statement that E-tec is the only motor which will run sans battery. If its true, so be it but is that really a fact? Dave - I understand the thought process you used and after taking everything into account like you did, I'd likely have done the same thing you are doing (go with E-tec).
Buckda	posted 01-11-2006 05:39 PM ET (US) John - Yeah. I'm trying to be careful, because for other applications and uses, there are a lot more options available to people. In particular, for a single-engine setup, I was interested in the Yamaha F150 and the Verado 150, as well as the E-TEC 150, of which we didn't really have any information yet, just pure speculation, until very recently; but in theory, it was on my radar and in my thoughts. And...for how I use the boat most of the time, I would even say that the 130 / 140 HP motors would have qualified for a close look. People report being very happy with that BF140 from Suzuki. I don't know what the story is on your 115 HP Merc and the battery usage. Here's a link to the original saga thread; please don't resurrect it unless you have something of significant value to add, since it's rather old. http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/010042.html
cc13	posted 01-11-2006 05:52 PM ET (US) Will the modern larger engines run without a battery? That is a question Im curious about as well. I have jump started a car with no battery and driven 15-20 miles, I have been on a plane that was hand cranked (not enough juice to operate the clutch) and flown, I have been on motorcycles with no/low battery power, lawnmowers and every other sort of small engine run with no battery, If I can get it started by handcranking, jump starting, etc., are you all saying that the modern outboards will not continue to run untilswitched off? If not, why do they come with pull cords?
Buckda	posted 01-11-2006 06:05 PM ET (US) I'm saying that in the circumstance that I faced, with re-power, I was down to two engines: OptiMax and E-Tec. OptiMax has some pretty hefty battery requirements, and as I understand it, relies on an external battery source to continue to operate the motor (perhaps the DFI system?). There had been reports of OptiMax owners experiencing problems with the operation of the motor, and the mechanic found the problem was tied to the batteries. E-TEC can be pull-started and will run with NO BATTERY attached. Ever. It may be the case that a 4-Stroke motor can be pull-started and then will continue to function properly without any external source of power. My understanding is that it was more of a "routing" of electricity needs, i.e. through a battery, than the engine's ability to produce electricity sufficient to keep it operational. The problem was that the systems run on electrical power, not a magneto, so the charging current is routed out to the battery and the battery pulses electricity to run the ignition. In the DFI E-TEC, the electrical needs of the DFI and other systems are routed directly, thereby bypassing the need for an external battery source.
fourdfish	posted 01-11-2006 06:50 PM ET (US) cc13-- Was that jump start or push start by popping the clutch! Used to do that when we were kids! Don't think that is possible anymore because of the computer. From what I was led to believe, you need a battery on the Optimax because of the Orbital system! Not sure about that.
The Judge	posted 01-12-2006 12:51 PM ET (US) Being able top run without a battery and being able to run without a battery WITHOUT doing any damage is the question. My 225 Ocen Runner('94) will run without a battery but like ALL outboards(except E-tec and maybe some newer ones) the voltage regulator will fry. This is also true if you switch the batteries while running or disconnect one of the cables. You CAN switch from battery 1 to #2 w/o frying it IF you do NOT pass "off" while doing so. Now if I might ask this one question....How many times or people do you all know that have had their batteries washed overboard or damaged due to fire that this is REALLY a concern? Personally if either happened, I would be happy to be alive and would not give a rat's behind if I was going to burn up a regulator. If these are REAL concerns, then have you considered an alternative fuel source? What happens if your fuel gets contaminated with sea water? ANY EFI engine will not run for long with water being fed through it's injectors...period. I agree with many about twin's VS single if you are doing mainly offshore excursions, etc but the main concern is fuel. If you are running twins for "safety" sake and only have one tank, you just removed the "safety" blanket. Twins without twin tanks is worse than a single and a kicker with a seperate 6gal tank.
Teak Oil	posted 01-12-2006 06:24 PM ET (US) Nick I couldnt have said it any better, well put
deepwater	posted 01-12-2006 06:32 PM ET (US) just for fun ,i once pull started my 88spl,it can be done ,i dont like it but it can be done ,,my batteries are well kept and clean so i dont have to pull start it again ,ever ,never i hope , have i mentioned my outrigger poles dbl as sail masts ;)
Buckda	posted 01-12-2006 06:49 PM ET (US) Biggie - You've never had a battery die on you? How about short out? Re: water in the fuel - this is a valid point, and a good reason to spend the extra money for a RACOR fuel filter/water separator with the clear bowl so you can draw off water. Hopefully, since your fuel pick-up is drawing from low in the tank, you'll notice the problem of water in your fuel before you get offshore. I'd argue that if the rest of your system is weak enough to allow water, when swamped to come into your tank, your boat is not adequately prepared to be offshore. All that said, I agree. LHG's method of having extended range plastic deck tanks for long-distance cruising is a good option in this case. Overall, I have to agree, twins are more than most people need, unless you venture offshore all the time, or are a freak like I am, you really have no NEED for them...it all then comes down to what you want. I dunno...how many times have you seen or been on a boat that has sunk at sea? I know it can happen and does, but dang it, I can't seem to remember one time that I witnessed or experienced it. Yet I sacrificed storage and some other creature comforts to buy an unsinkable hull. When's the last time that you NEEDED your pfd? How about your FLARES? When's the last time you made a distress call on your VHF? Used your fire extinguisher on the boat? I'm guessing that if you have an instance in mind for any of the above, it's not for more than two items, and not more than once or twice in all your years of boating. You don't buy twins or any other safety equipment for "everyday," You buy them for one particular day when you'd give your left nut for the power to get you off the water as fast as possible, or to put out that fire on your deck, or to call for help because you don't know what to do and your daughter fell overboard, hit her head and is bleeding and unconscious, or to get the attention of that passing freighter in the middle of the night because you never did watch that Tom Hanks movie and are sure you'd die on a deserted island, if you even made it to land. Right?