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Author Topic:   1979 OUTRAGE V-22 Outrage F225: Propeller

merensen posted 04-16-2006 02:10 PM ET (US)
I just re-powered my 1979 Outrage V-22 with a 2003 Yamaha F225 four-stroke. I have never had this engine in the water on any boat so I am not sure what propeller I need.
I am taking the boat to the dealer tomorrow to have it started for the first time, and they are going to give me a prop. I want to make sure I get the right one the first time around. Does anyone have the same set up? How do I calculate what prop I need?
Thanks,
Mike

jimh posted 04-16-2006 02:35 PM ET (US)
Please provide:
--total boat weight in the water including crew and fuel
--engine gear case ratio
From this we can calculate a starting point for the propeller. It will probably be close to a 19-inch pitch.
merensen posted 04-16-2006 03:10 PM ET (US)
Jim,
Here are the weighst of the boat plus or minus a few hundred pounds.
Hull + Engine + Fuel + Crew/Gear
2050 + 583 + 77*6=462 + 600 = 3,695 lbs
The Yamaha website lists the gear case ratio as 15:30 (2.00).
These numbers are an estimate but hopefully they will be enough information to get the right prop.
Thanks for your help,
Mike
Tom W Clark posted 04-17-2006 01:37 PM ET (US)
With the relatively low gearing, I suspect a 19" prop will be what you want. It is possible that a 17" or 18" might be ideal but you really need to run *something* to get some baseline data. Once you gave done this you can identify what will be optimal.
What motor and speed did you get from this boat before you repowered?
jimh posted 04-17-2006 09:28 PM ET (US)
Using your weight of 3,695-lbs and a hull factor of 190 for the V22, which is probably a bit conservative, I calculate you would have a speed potential of about 47-MPH with a 225-HP motor.
Using your gear ratio of 2:1, and figuring on a maximum engine speed of 6,000-RPM--I forgot to ask you for that--I calculate:
18-inch pitch
as the estimated propeller dimension.
Estimated weights are often on the low side of actual weights.
Peter posted 04-18-2006 08:14 AM ET (US)
I think 47 MPH from an F225 on an Outrage 22 with the stated estimated weight is on the optimistic side. Most accounts that I've seen for the F225 suggest that it is about 215 HP at the prop shaft. Using a conservative 180 hull factor and 215 HP, the estimated top speed is 43 MPH. Plugging a 2:1 ratio and a 6000 RPM redline and 8 percent slip into the prop calculator suggests 16.6 inches of pitch. If it produces 225 HP, then the same calculation suggests 16.9 inches of pitch
Assuming that the propeller is coming from a Yamaha dealer, I would start with a 17 inch Yamaha Saltwater Series propeller for your rig. If that is able to reach redline with the stated loading, I would move up to a 19 inch Yamaha Saltwater Series propeller and see where the tachometer reading goes at WOT. If WOT is above 5500 RPM with the 19P and that loading, I would stick with the 19P. Your dealer won't really know which is the right size to use until he tries one of them out and sees how high the tachometer goes.
jimh posted 04-18-2006 09:00 AM ET (US)
For some reason, I was thinking of the older V-20 hull, whose V-form was not as deep. Now I realize the V-22 is the same as the later Outrage 22 hull. Thus a full factor of 190 may have been a bit optimistic.
I also tend to favor using a propeller that lets the engine speed wind to maximum. This keeps the engine from being bogged down with too much propeller pitch to turn.
Peter posted 04-18-2006 09:25 AM ET (US)
As far as I know, the 22 foot hull shape has remained the same although it started out being called the V-22.
Tom W Clark posted 04-18-2006 10:03 AM ET (US)
Yes, the V-22 and the Outrage 22 hulls are the same just as the V-20 and the the original Outrage 20 hulls are the same.
The V-20 and the V-22 are not the same and do not have the same deadrise.
I agree with Peter's assessment and estimation. A 17" Yamaha Saltwater Series or 17" Mercury Mirage Plus would be very good propellers to try first.
I would expect a top speed of 44 MPH.
merensen posted 04-22-2006 06:59 PM ET (US)
Just picked the boat up from the Yamaha dealer, they put a 17 pitch aluminum prop on the 225. I will launch the boat next week and let you know how it performs.
Thanks for your help.
merensen posted 05-20-2006 11:50 PM ET (US)
Got the boat wet this afternoon, didn't have the GPS hooked up but I was able to get 6100 RPM at WOT. Seems like the 17 is the right prop, Yamaha website says the RPM should be between 5-6K. Should I try another pitch?
Thanks for your help. Will post pictures when the restoration is complete.
-mike
Tom W Clark posted 05-20-2006 11:59 PM ET (US)
Mike,
You're over the redline now. A small increase in pitch would help. Try an 18" or a 19" pitch propeller.
I have a like-new 14-1/4" x 18" Yamaha polished stainless steel propeller you could try if you like.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/accessories/acscitemdetail/5/258/ 1095/8453/all/1/3969/0/detail.aspx
merensen posted 06-05-2006 12:09 PM ET (US)
Finally got the GPS hooked up and got some Numbers.
WOT was at 6100 RPM and the boat topped out at 43MPH. I have 60 Gallons of gas on board, and 450 pounds of passengers/gear.
I have a 19 pitch prop that I am going to try tonight.

merensen posted 06-06-2006 10:11 AM ET (US)
Here are the new numbers (in miles per hour)...
Pitch 3,000 3,500 4,000 4,500 5,000 5,500 6,000
17 12 16.5 23 27.5 31.5 35 39
Trimmed at WOT 43.5 @ 6,100 rpm

Pitch 3,000 3,500 4,000 4,500 5,000 5,500 6,000
19 17.5 25 30 33 37
Trimmed at WOT 41.5 @ 5,300 rpm
Based on these numbers I feel like the 19 is a better prop for my setup, what do you guys think? Should I try an 18?
merensen posted 06-06-2006 10:15 AM ET (US)
Sorry this should be easier to read.
Here are the new numbers (in miles per hour)...
17 Pitch
3,000 = 12
3,500 = 16.5
4,000 = 23
4,500 = 27.5
5,000 = 31.5
5,500 = 35
6,000 = 39

Trimmed at WOT = 43.5 @ 6,100 rpm

19 Pitch
3,000 = 17.5
3,500 = 25
4,000 = 30
4,500 = 33
5,000 = 37
5,500
6,000

Trimmed at WOT = 41.5 @ 5,300 rpm
Based on these numbers I feel like the 19 is a better prop for my setup, What do you guys think? SHoudl I try an 18?
Tom W Clark posted 06-06-2006 11:18 AM ET (US)
Mike,
Those are VERY surprising results. A drop of 800 RPM with only a 2" increase of pitch does not sound right at all. I have to think you are not sharing all the information with us. Normally I would expect a 300-400 RPM drop with that switch.
You say the dealership put on an aluminum prop. I would think that is a Yamaha 17-M series. Was the 19" a Yamaha 19-M? Can you tell us exactly what propellers you tried out? Part numbers?
Based on the results you have posted, I would draw the opposite conclusion: the 17" is the better prop. It is faster and allows the motor to more closely approach it's redline, but because it exceeds the redline, I would suggest trying an 18" pitch prop.
The 19" only allows 5300 RPM which I would not be comfortable with on a motor with a 6000 RPM redline.
Furthermore, if you are able to reach 43.5 MPH with the 17" aluminum prop, I would fully expect you to be able to exceed 45 MPH with the correct stainless steel propeller.
Kookadala posted 06-06-2006 08:34 PM ET (US)
I think a one inch pitch increase should give a 400-500 RPM drop so two inches changing 800 RPM sound right to me. 6100 RPM is too high and 5300 rpm is too low. Sounds like the 18 pitch should be exactly what you need to get the RPMs at about 5800 to 5900 WOT.
Perry posted 06-06-2006 09:04 PM ET (US)

quote:
I think a one inch pitch increase should give a 400-500 RPM drop
You can't be serious. I see a drop of 200 RPM decrease max when dropping one inch pitch of the same make and modelprop.
If experimenting with different brands or makes of props, dropping pitch may result in variuos RPM decrease.
Kookadala posted 06-07-2006 12:42 PM ET (US)
Geez, what was I thinking? A TWO-inch pitch change should give those differences (400-500 RPM), not a one-inch. Guess I was daydreaming!

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Author	Topic: 1979 OUTRAGE V-22 Outrage F225: Propeller
merensen	posted 04-16-2006 02:10 PM ET (US) I just re-powered my 1979 Outrage V-22 with a 2003 Yamaha F225 four-stroke. I have never had this engine in the water on any boat so I am not sure what propeller I need. I am taking the boat to the dealer tomorrow to have it started for the first time, and they are going to give me a prop. I want to make sure I get the right one the first time around. Does anyone have the same set up? How do I calculate what prop I need? Thanks, Mike
jimh	posted 04-16-2006 02:35 PM ET (US) Please provide: --total boat weight in the water including crew and fuel --engine gear case ratio From this we can calculate a starting point for the propeller. It will probably be close to a 19-inch pitch.
merensen	posted 04-16-2006 03:10 PM ET (US) Jim, Here are the weighst of the boat plus or minus a few hundred pounds. Hull + Engine + Fuel + Crew/Gear 2050 + 583 + 77*6=462 + 600 = 3,695 lbs The Yamaha website lists the gear case ratio as 15:30 (2.00). These numbers are an estimate but hopefully they will be enough information to get the right prop. Thanks for your help, Mike
Tom W Clark	posted 04-17-2006 01:37 PM ET (US) With the relatively low gearing, I suspect a 19" prop will be what you want. It is possible that a 17" or 18" might be ideal but you really need to run something to get some baseline data. Once you gave done this you can identify what will be optimal. What motor and speed did you get from this boat before you repowered?
jimh	posted 04-17-2006 09:28 PM ET (US) Using your weight of 3,695-lbs and a hull factor of 190 for the V22, which is probably a bit conservative, I calculate you would have a speed potential of about 47-MPH with a 225-HP motor. Using your gear ratio of 2:1, and figuring on a maximum engine speed of 6,000-RPM--I forgot to ask you for that--I calculate: 18-inch pitch as the estimated propeller dimension. Estimated weights are often on the low side of actual weights.
Peter	posted 04-18-2006 08:14 AM ET (US) I think 47 MPH from an F225 on an Outrage 22 with the stated estimated weight is on the optimistic side. Most accounts that I've seen for the F225 suggest that it is about 215 HP at the prop shaft. Using a conservative 180 hull factor and 215 HP, the estimated top speed is 43 MPH. Plugging a 2:1 ratio and a 6000 RPM redline and 8 percent slip into the prop calculator suggests 16.6 inches of pitch. If it produces 225 HP, then the same calculation suggests 16.9 inches of pitch Assuming that the propeller is coming from a Yamaha dealer, I would start with a 17 inch Yamaha Saltwater Series propeller for your rig. If that is able to reach redline with the stated loading, I would move up to a 19 inch Yamaha Saltwater Series propeller and see where the tachometer reading goes at WOT. If WOT is above 5500 RPM with the 19P and that loading, I would stick with the 19P. Your dealer won't really know which is the right size to use until he tries one of them out and sees how high the tachometer goes.
jimh	posted 04-18-2006 09:00 AM ET (US) For some reason, I was thinking of the older V-20 hull, whose V-form was not as deep. Now I realize the V-22 is the same as the later Outrage 22 hull. Thus a full factor of 190 may have been a bit optimistic. I also tend to favor using a propeller that lets the engine speed wind to maximum. This keeps the engine from being bogged down with too much propeller pitch to turn.
Peter	posted 04-18-2006 09:25 AM ET (US) As far as I know, the 22 foot hull shape has remained the same although it started out being called the V-22.
Tom W Clark	posted 04-18-2006 10:03 AM ET (US) Yes, the V-22 and the Outrage 22 hulls are the same just as the V-20 and the the original Outrage 20 hulls are the same. The V-20 and the V-22 are not the same and do not have the same deadrise. I agree with Peter's assessment and estimation. A 17" Yamaha Saltwater Series or 17" Mercury Mirage Plus would be very good propellers to try first. I would expect a top speed of 44 MPH.
merensen	posted 04-22-2006 06:59 PM ET (US) Just picked the boat up from the Yamaha dealer, they put a 17 pitch aluminum prop on the 225. I will launch the boat next week and let you know how it performs. Thanks for your help.
merensen	posted 05-20-2006 11:50 PM ET (US) Got the boat wet this afternoon, didn't have the GPS hooked up but I was able to get 6100 RPM at WOT. Seems like the 17 is the right prop, Yamaha website says the RPM should be between 5-6K. Should I try another pitch? Thanks for your help. Will post pictures when the restoration is complete. -mike
Tom W Clark	posted 05-20-2006 11:59 PM ET (US) Mike, You're over the redline now. A small increase in pitch would help. Try an 18" or a 19" pitch propeller. I have a like-new 14-1/4" x 18" Yamaha polished stainless steel propeller you could try if you like. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/accessories/acscitemdetail/5/258/ 1095/8453/all/1/3969/0/detail.aspx
merensen	posted 06-05-2006 12:09 PM ET (US) Finally got the GPS hooked up and got some Numbers. WOT was at 6100 RPM and the boat topped out at 43MPH. I have 60 Gallons of gas on board, and 450 pounds of passengers/gear. I have a 19 pitch prop that I am going to try tonight.
merensen	posted 06-06-2006 10:11 AM ET (US) Here are the new numbers (in miles per hour)... Pitch 3,000 3,500 4,000 4,500 5,000 5,500 6,000 17 12 16.5 23 27.5 31.5 35 39 Trimmed at WOT 43.5 @ 6,100 rpm Pitch 3,000 3,500 4,000 4,500 5,000 5,500 6,000 19 17.5 25 30 33 37 Trimmed at WOT 41.5 @ 5,300 rpm Based on these numbers I feel like the 19 is a better prop for my setup, what do you guys think? Should I try an 18?
merensen	posted 06-06-2006 10:15 AM ET (US) Sorry this should be easier to read. Here are the new numbers (in miles per hour)... 17 Pitch 3,000 = 12 3,500 = 16.5 4,000 = 23 4,500 = 27.5 5,000 = 31.5 5,500 = 35 6,000 = 39 Trimmed at WOT = 43.5 @ 6,100 rpm 19 Pitch 3,000 = 17.5 3,500 = 25 4,000 = 30 4,500 = 33 5,000 = 37 5,500 6,000 Trimmed at WOT = 41.5 @ 5,300 rpm Based on these numbers I feel like the 19 is a better prop for my setup, What do you guys think? SHoudl I try an 18?
Tom W Clark	posted 06-06-2006 11:18 AM ET (US) Mike, Those are VERY surprising results. A drop of 800 RPM with only a 2" increase of pitch does not sound right at all. I have to think you are not sharing all the information with us. Normally I would expect a 300-400 RPM drop with that switch. You say the dealership put on an aluminum prop. I would think that is a Yamaha 17-M series. Was the 19" a Yamaha 19-M? Can you tell us exactly what propellers you tried out? Part numbers? Based on the results you have posted, I would draw the opposite conclusion: the 17" is the better prop. It is faster and allows the motor to more closely approach it's redline, but because it exceeds the redline, I would suggest trying an 18" pitch prop. The 19" only allows 5300 RPM which I would not be comfortable with on a motor with a 6000 RPM redline. Furthermore, if you are able to reach 43.5 MPH with the 17" aluminum prop, I would fully expect you to be able to exceed 45 MPH with the correct stainless steel propeller.
Kookadala	posted 06-06-2006 08:34 PM ET (US) I think a one inch pitch increase should give a 400-500 RPM drop so two inches changing 800 RPM sound right to me. 6100 RPM is too high and 5300 rpm is too low. Sounds like the 18 pitch should be exactly what you need to get the RPMs at about 5800 to 5900 WOT.
Perry	posted 06-06-2006 09:04 PM ET (US) quote: I think a one inch pitch increase should give a 400-500 RPM drop You can't be serious. I see a drop of 200 RPM decrease max when dropping one inch pitch of the same make and modelprop. If experimenting with different brands or makes of props, dropping pitch may result in variuos RPM decrease.
Kookadala	posted 06-07-2006 12:42 PM ET (US) Geez, what was I thinking? A TWO-inch pitch change should give those differences (400-500 RPM), not a one-inch. Guess I was daydreaming!