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Author Topic:   Highway Towing: Guardian 18

Rhino Chaser posted 05-22-2006 02:12 PM ET (US)
Hello,
New to the forum. I have reviewed much of the information here. Thank you.
A friend recently made a suprise offer to sell me his Guardian 18 with a good two-stroke and a kicker on the stern. He has done a lot of work on it and it is in decent shape. I am pretty excited. What an outstanding vessel!
I read about the weight of these boats being greater than the typical Outrage. From what I saw it looks like the boat will weight up to approximately 2,000-lbs from most estimates assuming that the hull is fairly dry. Coupled with the weight of equipment, motors, trailer, etc.
Would a 4-runner V-6 with a 5000lb max towing capacity be able to pull this boat with out ruining the back end suspension over the long run?
Tom W Clark posted 05-22-2006 02:25 PM ET (US)
Yes, your 4Runner will be adequate for towing that boat.
Rhino Chaser posted 05-22-2006 06:43 PM ET (US)
Thank you, this is my first Whaler; I am excited.
Rhino Chaser posted 05-28-2006 02:29 AM ET (US)
I have also been looking at another vessel. Will I notice any performance difference between an 1982 Outrage hull and a 1986 Guardian? Thank you.
jimh posted 05-28-2006 08:41 AM ET (US)
A GUARDIAN hull will weigh more than an OUTRAGE hull of the same size. Weight always imposes a penalty on performance. With all other things equal, a heavier boat will:
--have a slower top speed
--have slower acceleration
--have greater fuel consumption
The GUARDIAN hull is heavier because its laminates are thicker. This was done to make the hull more durable for commercial or military service.
Rhino Chaser posted 05-30-2006 01:44 AM ET (US)
Thank you. Speed is not a concern. I was hoping that the weight would improve the way the vessel rides in heavier seas.
Jerry Townsend posted 05-30-2006 11:00 AM ET (US)
Rhino Chaser -- Firstly - welcome. And you are right - the added weight gives a smoother more stable ride, by definition! The proof? - remember F = MA or Force is equal to the product of Mass times Acceleration. The higher the Mass, the lower the Acceleration due to the same Force of the water. And, the guardian will, in my mind, provide a safer ride - more freeboard, better control, better stability -- just better able to take big water.
The points regarding speed and fuel consumption made by Jimh are true too - but only part of the picture.
The guardian is just a bigger boat - not only more durable, but a bit longer and bit wider - all bigger than an 18 Outrage. ----- Jerry/Idaho
Tom W Clark posted 05-30-2006 11:13 AM ET (US)
A Guardian 18 is NOT bigger than an Outrage 18. They are exactly the same size and share the same hull.
Jerry Townsend posted 05-30-2006 11:31 AM ET (US)
Tom - thanks for the correction. That's what happens when one opens his mouth without really being sure - but I slipped another cog - damn't. Thanks again Tom and sorry for any misconceptions.
But thinking aobut it Tom - is the freeboard the same? I have only seen pictures of the Guardian and it looks like it is a bit deeper. --- Jerry/Idaho
thekidd posted 05-30-2006 01:21 PM ET (US)
While I agree with Jim's assertion of an imposed penalty with respect to performance b/c of it's weight, it is important that you factor in the pros of the added weight as well. Your speed, fuel consumption and maneuverability will be effected, but keep in mind that the added weight will also prove efficient in rougher seas b/c of added stability (depending on swell direction and so forth). I may be a bit biased as an owner of a 19II whose weight is more reflective of a guradian then a classic 18. I factored in the added weight as a positive when contemplating the purchase b/c I run primarily in the ocean. The added weight increases my comfort while underway and also adds to my concept of increased durability (although I feel there are no substantial durability issues with older 'classic' models).
Now, as for the weight. Tom should clear this up for me if he gets to reading it, but I believe that your estimated weight of 2,000 lbs may be somewhat lower then actual weight. Boat with full tank of gas, gear, engine and etc. should put you closer to 2,500 - 3,000 lbs. Tom will know. Also, don't forget to factor in the trailer weight when thinking about a tow vehicle.
For fear of ending up in the Meta area, please note that this is my opinion only and that I am not a certified BW dealer, mechanic or the like. I am just another happy BW boater with a huge void in knowledge of the boats aside from the fact that they don't sink, handle very well and always lack sufficient cup holders.
I can say with certainty that you will like either Whaler you chose to buy, unless it ends up sitting in your driveway every day.
Bueno Suerte
Buckda posted 05-30-2006 01:45 PM ET (US)
To answer your question, I don't think you'll notice performance differences between the two hulls if powered with max HP. The Outrage hull may be slightly faster, but only by a knot or two..not really noticeable. 42 MPH is fast enough in this hull...and 50 is just "faster".
As for seakeeping, the weight may indeed help out in chop, though I am not convinced it will be enough to make a purchase decision change. You should make the decision based on the condition of the hull and accessories, engine performance and sea-trial.
As for towing... the 4-Runner should be adequate. I tow my 18' Outrage with full fuel and twin 90 HP motors on a tandem galvanized steel trailer, along with the vehicle loaded with gear and two or three 'average' guys. The truck is a 3,500 lb rated V-6 Ford Explorer. It now has 111,800 miles on it and there is no sign of problems with the drive-train or cooling system. I do change transmission fluid at an aggressive schedule (35,000 instead of 45,000 miles).
Were I to buy a new vehicle, I will upgrade to a larger capacity...but I had the Explorer when I bought the Outrage. C'est la vie.
Royboy posted 05-30-2006 03:24 PM ET (US)
It's not really your suspension that will suffer over time, it's the transmission. The tongue weight is not much, if any, more than a fully loaded vehicle might see without a trailer in tow. Pulling the entire weight of the boat and gear in tow is something your transmission has to deal with. Like Dave aptly pointed out; change your tranny fluid more often than usual. Add a transmission cooler if you don't already have one, or consider a larger aftermarked cooler as vehicles not equipped with a towing package often need their small coolers even without a tow load. Also, disengage the overdrive if so equipped.
Make sure your tongue weight is in the 5 to 10% range. Also make sure you don't exceed the gross weight capacity of the whole rig.
Roy
Rhino Chaser posted 05-30-2006 06:29 PM ET (US)
Thank you for the input!
The Guardian was restored by a friend. He bought it from a military auction several years ago and it was trashed. He has pictures of the vessel before he went to work and it was a mess. He left under a tarp in the sun for a few years about a year ago he began restoring it.
The hull is now very clean. We took it out the other day in howling wind to play around with it and it did well in the short chop. It was amazing how well it "cushioned" the impact on the swells when I was running at higher rpm.
The only issue I have with it is the older 115hp 2 stroke that is currently powering it.
The other Outrage is listed at considerably more with a new 150 honda hanging off the stern.
I love the gray hull and no nonsense low maintenance layout on the guardian though! I have been waxing and repairing boats ever since I can remember....
stefan posted 05-30-2006 06:38 PM ET (US)
definitely need to upgrade the 115- it's heavier than the 18 and a 115 is on it?- that's interesting.....
Ranjr13 posted 06-04-2006 10:12 PM ET (US)
You'll tow either boat fine. As Buckda and Royboy say, the longevity of your tow vehicle will be reduced specifically in the transmission. More frequent servicings will extend that life as mentioned.
I recently pulled an 18 from Charlotte, NC to Connecticut with my Tahoe that has 261,000 on it. It gets a transmission service every 30K. It also goes into 4WD Low Range when yanking anything out of a launch ramp - pulls out at just a bit over an idle. Always use your parking brake to absorb most of the weight when stopped on a ramp or other steep surface, especially if you have an automatic transmission.
For safety sake, keep the toung weight as mentioned - but consider a set of adjustable air shocks. That was the best towing addition to my Tahoe. With the Outrage on it, a normal drop of 2" in the tail end may not seem like much, but it affects both steering and braking and I'm sure vehicle stability. Put in 20 or 30 pounds of air and it comes right back to normal. Plus, your headlights will then remain focused upon the road and not at the tree tops.
Best of luck, be careful, and enjoy either of the boats behind your tow vehicle.
Rhino Chaser posted 06-14-2006 12:51 PM ET (US)
Thank you for the input, it is sincereley appreciated! The motor is having issues anyway so it may quash the deal. So I am on the prowl.
alfa posted 06-14-2006 02:08 PM ET (US)
Towing such a boat is really an issue.
I tow my 22 Outrage with an old (1985) gas Range Rover.
It has the power : transmission and weight for driving the huge load.
But take care on the road. And as said, adjust the tongue weight.
Tight lines

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Author	Topic: Highway Towing: Guardian 18
Rhino Chaser	posted 05-22-2006 02:12 PM ET (US) Hello, New to the forum. I have reviewed much of the information here. Thank you. A friend recently made a suprise offer to sell me his Guardian 18 with a good two-stroke and a kicker on the stern. He has done a lot of work on it and it is in decent shape. I am pretty excited. What an outstanding vessel! I read about the weight of these boats being greater than the typical Outrage. From what I saw it looks like the boat will weight up to approximately 2,000-lbs from most estimates assuming that the hull is fairly dry. Coupled with the weight of equipment, motors, trailer, etc. Would a 4-runner V-6 with a 5000lb max towing capacity be able to pull this boat with out ruining the back end suspension over the long run?
Tom W Clark	posted 05-22-2006 02:25 PM ET (US) Yes, your 4Runner will be adequate for towing that boat.
Rhino Chaser	posted 05-22-2006 06:43 PM ET (US) Thank you, this is my first Whaler; I am excited.
Rhino Chaser	posted 05-28-2006 02:29 AM ET (US) I have also been looking at another vessel. Will I notice any performance difference between an 1982 Outrage hull and a 1986 Guardian? Thank you.
jimh	posted 05-28-2006 08:41 AM ET (US) A GUARDIAN hull will weigh more than an OUTRAGE hull of the same size. Weight always imposes a penalty on performance. With all other things equal, a heavier boat will: --have a slower top speed --have slower acceleration --have greater fuel consumption The GUARDIAN hull is heavier because its laminates are thicker. This was done to make the hull more durable for commercial or military service.
Rhino Chaser	posted 05-30-2006 01:44 AM ET (US) Thank you. Speed is not a concern. I was hoping that the weight would improve the way the vessel rides in heavier seas.
Jerry Townsend	posted 05-30-2006 11:00 AM ET (US) Rhino Chaser -- Firstly - welcome. And you are right - the added weight gives a smoother more stable ride, by definition! The proof? - remember F = MA or Force is equal to the product of Mass times Acceleration. The higher the Mass, the lower the Acceleration due to the same Force of the water. And, the guardian will, in my mind, provide a safer ride - more freeboard, better control, better stability -- just better able to take big water. The points regarding speed and fuel consumption made by Jimh are true too - but only part of the picture. The guardian is just a bigger boat - not only more durable, but a bit longer and bit wider - all bigger than an 18 Outrage. ----- Jerry/Idaho
Tom W Clark	posted 05-30-2006 11:13 AM ET (US) A Guardian 18 is NOT bigger than an Outrage 18. They are exactly the same size and share the same hull.
Jerry Townsend	posted 05-30-2006 11:31 AM ET (US) Tom - thanks for the correction. That's what happens when one opens his mouth without really being sure - but I slipped another cog - damn't. Thanks again Tom and sorry for any misconceptions. But thinking aobut it Tom - is the freeboard the same? I have only seen pictures of the Guardian and it looks like it is a bit deeper. --- Jerry/Idaho
thekidd	posted 05-30-2006 01:21 PM ET (US) While I agree with Jim's assertion of an imposed penalty with respect to performance b/c of it's weight, it is important that you factor in the pros of the added weight as well. Your speed, fuel consumption and maneuverability will be effected, but keep in mind that the added weight will also prove efficient in rougher seas b/c of added stability (depending on swell direction and so forth). I may be a bit biased as an owner of a 19II whose weight is more reflective of a guradian then a classic 18. I factored in the added weight as a positive when contemplating the purchase b/c I run primarily in the ocean. The added weight increases my comfort while underway and also adds to my concept of increased durability (although I feel there are no substantial durability issues with older 'classic' models). Now, as for the weight. Tom should clear this up for me if he gets to reading it, but I believe that your estimated weight of 2,000 lbs may be somewhat lower then actual weight. Boat with full tank of gas, gear, engine and etc. should put you closer to 2,500 - 3,000 lbs. Tom will know. Also, don't forget to factor in the trailer weight when thinking about a tow vehicle. For fear of ending up in the Meta area, please note that this is my opinion only and that I am not a certified BW dealer, mechanic or the like. I am just another happy BW boater with a huge void in knowledge of the boats aside from the fact that they don't sink, handle very well and always lack sufficient cup holders. I can say with certainty that you will like either Whaler you chose to buy, unless it ends up sitting in your driveway every day. Bueno Suerte
Buckda	posted 05-30-2006 01:45 PM ET (US) To answer your question, I don't think you'll notice performance differences between the two hulls if powered with max HP. The Outrage hull may be slightly faster, but only by a knot or two..not really noticeable. 42 MPH is fast enough in this hull...and 50 is just "faster". As for seakeeping, the weight may indeed help out in chop, though I am not convinced it will be enough to make a purchase decision change. You should make the decision based on the condition of the hull and accessories, engine performance and sea-trial. As for towing... the 4-Runner should be adequate. I tow my 18' Outrage with full fuel and twin 90 HP motors on a tandem galvanized steel trailer, along with the vehicle loaded with gear and two or three 'average' guys. The truck is a 3,500 lb rated V-6 Ford Explorer. It now has 111,800 miles on it and there is no sign of problems with the drive-train or cooling system. I do change transmission fluid at an aggressive schedule (35,000 instead of 45,000 miles). Were I to buy a new vehicle, I will upgrade to a larger capacity...but I had the Explorer when I bought the Outrage. C'est la vie.
Royboy	posted 05-30-2006 03:24 PM ET (US) It's not really your suspension that will suffer over time, it's the transmission. The tongue weight is not much, if any, more than a fully loaded vehicle might see without a trailer in tow. Pulling the entire weight of the boat and gear in tow is something your transmission has to deal with. Like Dave aptly pointed out; change your tranny fluid more often than usual. Add a transmission cooler if you don't already have one, or consider a larger aftermarked cooler as vehicles not equipped with a towing package often need their small coolers even without a tow load. Also, disengage the overdrive if so equipped. Make sure your tongue weight is in the 5 to 10% range. Also make sure you don't exceed the gross weight capacity of the whole rig. Roy
Rhino Chaser	posted 05-30-2006 06:29 PM ET (US) Thank you for the input! The Guardian was restored by a friend. He bought it from a military auction several years ago and it was trashed. He has pictures of the vessel before he went to work and it was a mess. He left under a tarp in the sun for a few years about a year ago he began restoring it. The hull is now very clean. We took it out the other day in howling wind to play around with it and it did well in the short chop. It was amazing how well it "cushioned" the impact on the swells when I was running at higher rpm. The only issue I have with it is the older 115hp 2 stroke that is currently powering it. The other Outrage is listed at considerably more with a new 150 honda hanging off the stern. I love the gray hull and no nonsense low maintenance layout on the guardian though! I have been waxing and repairing boats ever since I can remember....
stefan	posted 05-30-2006 06:38 PM ET (US) definitely need to upgrade the 115- it's heavier than the 18 and a 115 is on it?- that's interesting.....
Ranjr13	posted 06-04-2006 10:12 PM ET (US) You'll tow either boat fine. As Buckda and Royboy say, the longevity of your tow vehicle will be reduced specifically in the transmission. More frequent servicings will extend that life as mentioned. I recently pulled an 18 from Charlotte, NC to Connecticut with my Tahoe that has 261,000 on it. It gets a transmission service every 30K. It also goes into 4WD Low Range when yanking anything out of a launch ramp - pulls out at just a bit over an idle. Always use your parking brake to absorb most of the weight when stopped on a ramp or other steep surface, especially if you have an automatic transmission. For safety sake, keep the toung weight as mentioned - but consider a set of adjustable air shocks. That was the best towing addition to my Tahoe. With the Outrage on it, a normal drop of 2" in the tail end may not seem like much, but it affects both steering and braking and I'm sure vehicle stability. Put in 20 or 30 pounds of air and it comes right back to normal. Plus, your headlights will then remain focused upon the road and not at the tree tops. Best of luck, be careful, and enjoy either of the boats behind your tow vehicle.
Rhino Chaser	posted 06-14-2006 12:51 PM ET (US) Thank you for the input, it is sincereley appreciated! The motor is having issues anyway so it may quash the deal. So I am on the prowl.
alfa	posted 06-14-2006 02:08 PM ET (US) Towing such a boat is really an issue. I tow my 22 Outrage with an old (1985) gas Range Rover. It has the power : transmission and weight for driving the huge load. But take care on the road. And as said, adjust the tongue weight. Tight lines