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Author Topic:   Ethanol: Lower Fuel Economy

Robob2003 posted 09-12-2006 09:41 AM ET (US)
Ethanol contains the energy equivalent of about 76,000 BTU's per gallon compared to gasoline, which has about 120,000. A 10% ethanol content should, therefore, decrease boat mileage proportionately. In the current issue of Consumer Reports they test a 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe running on E85 (85% ethanol). According to their figures fuel economy in a vehicle specifically designed and built to run on E85, is decreased by 27%. Not much of a trade-off when you consider that the pump price isn't any lower than gas. The Federal Government, in its infinite wisdom, screws us once more.
Bob on Tampa Bay
6992WHALER posted 09-12-2006 11:47 AM ET (US)
In Minnesota the E85 is about 50 cents a gallon cheaper than regular unleaded. Or about 21% less. Even with this difference in price the Tahoe would still be better off running regular gas.
Binkie posted 09-12-2006 11:57 AM ET (US)
Your absolutely right Bob, unless the price per gallon is substantially less then gas like 27% or more there is no advantage in using E85. In this months issue of Car Craft magazine there is an article on E85 and it states exactly what you said, and it also mentioned that the feds are currently subsidising ethanol at about 50 cents per gallon, and if use increased dramatically in the next few years, expect the govt. to yank that subsidy in order to cash in. According to Car Craft the octane is in E85 is about the same as high test gas, so you need to compare the price to high test. E85 is generally rated between 100 and 105 octane, and it is blended with 87-octane gasoline.
At this time, I don`t think you can buy E85 in Florida.
Robob2003 posted 09-12-2006 01:51 PM ET (US)
Binkie,
<At this time, I don`t think you can buy E85 in Florida.>
According to Consumer Reports it's only available in the northern midwest and not too easily found there.
Just another government boondoggle:-(
In addition to subsidizing the producers of ethanol the government is subsidizing auto makers to build vehicles that use E85 so GM, Ford, et al have an incentive to push them.
Even 10% ethanol in our gas irritates me due to possible damage caused by the mix.
The rebuilt 1980 Johnson that came on my Sakonnet runs just fine with a minimum of maintenance that I can do myself.
Planned obsolescence:-(

Bob on Tampa Bay
where2 posted 09-13-2006 10:26 PM ET (US)
Precisely why there are two new Diesel VW's in my driveway... 147,000 BTU/gallon. Now if a retailer would start selling Biodiesel near me, I could support a farmer myself.
I've got a riding lawn mower that burns gasoline. It will not drive me 44 miles on a gallon of gas, even without the blades running. Somehow, my wife's VW can drive two adults and the car 44 miles down the interstate at 70mph with the A/C running on one gallon of diesel.
E85? What else can they come up with to mix with gasoline to entice the American's to buy more of their high dollar oil?
Where's Nick with his Diesel Jeep Liberty? (He tow's his 19' Whaler with it...)
Binkie posted 09-14-2006 08:41 AM ET (US)
where2,
You can get your bio diesel fuel at McDonald's or Wendy's among other restaurants for free. All you have to do is filter it. Check out greasecar.com. I know of a guy who buys his bio diesel fuel as Sam`s Club, so he doesn`t have to filter it.
Rich
Plotman posted 09-14-2006 12:02 PM ET (US)
Diesiel fuel in 138 or 139,000 BTU per gallon, vs 124,000 BTU for standard gasoline - an 11% difference.
However, Diesel engines also typically have a higher thermal efficiency than gasoline engines - in other words more of the heat content of the fuel goes to turning the wheels, and less out the tailpipe and radiator as heat, than in a gasoline engine, which also improves mileage.
jimh posted 09-14-2006 07:57 PM ET (US)
You may be able to use E85 in a vehicle for towing your Boston Whaler boat, but it is unlikely you will be able to use it as a fuel for an outboard motor on your Boston Whaler boat.
where2 posted 09-14-2006 11:53 PM ET (US)
I need one of those Multi-Fuel E-Tec engines...
I do scan the prices on virgin veggie oil in the grocery stores, but I have yet to see it in the $3/gallon range. I've seen greasecar.com If you poke around there, you'll notice many of their loyal followers are driving VW's.
When will someone come out with a hardware or software "chip upgrade" for the E-Tec motors that allows them to run the multi-fuel diet? I'd like to smell doughnuts while I'm idling up the canal in the morning. :)

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Author	Topic: Ethanol: Lower Fuel Economy
Robob2003	posted 09-12-2006 09:41 AM ET (US) Ethanol contains the energy equivalent of about 76,000 BTU's per gallon compared to gasoline, which has about 120,000. A 10% ethanol content should, therefore, decrease boat mileage proportionately. In the current issue of Consumer Reports they test a 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe running on E85 (85% ethanol). According to their figures fuel economy in a vehicle specifically designed and built to run on E85, is decreased by 27%. Not much of a trade-off when you consider that the pump price isn't any lower than gas. The Federal Government, in its infinite wisdom, screws us once more. Bob on Tampa Bay
6992WHALER	posted 09-12-2006 11:47 AM ET (US) In Minnesota the E85 is about 50 cents a gallon cheaper than regular unleaded. Or about 21% less. Even with this difference in price the Tahoe would still be better off running regular gas.
Binkie	posted 09-12-2006 11:57 AM ET (US) Your absolutely right Bob, unless the price per gallon is substantially less then gas like 27% or more there is no advantage in using E85. In this months issue of Car Craft magazine there is an article on E85 and it states exactly what you said, and it also mentioned that the feds are currently subsidising ethanol at about 50 cents per gallon, and if use increased dramatically in the next few years, expect the govt. to yank that subsidy in order to cash in. According to Car Craft the octane is in E85 is about the same as high test gas, so you need to compare the price to high test. E85 is generally rated between 100 and 105 octane, and it is blended with 87-octane gasoline. At this time, I don`t think you can buy E85 in Florida.
Robob2003	posted 09-12-2006 01:51 PM ET (US) Binkie, <At this time, I don`t think you can buy E85 in Florida.> According to Consumer Reports it's only available in the northern midwest and not too easily found there. Just another government boondoggle:-( In addition to subsidizing the producers of ethanol the government is subsidizing auto makers to build vehicles that use E85 so GM, Ford, et al have an incentive to push them. Even 10% ethanol in our gas irritates me due to possible damage caused by the mix. The rebuilt 1980 Johnson that came on my Sakonnet runs just fine with a minimum of maintenance that I can do myself. Planned obsolescence:-( Bob on Tampa Bay
where2	posted 09-13-2006 10:26 PM ET (US) Precisely why there are two new Diesel VW's in my driveway... 147,000 BTU/gallon. Now if a retailer would start selling Biodiesel near me, I could support a farmer myself. I've got a riding lawn mower that burns gasoline. It will not drive me 44 miles on a gallon of gas, even without the blades running. Somehow, my wife's VW can drive two adults and the car 44 miles down the interstate at 70mph with the A/C running on one gallon of diesel. E85? What else can they come up with to mix with gasoline to entice the American's to buy more of their high dollar oil? Where's Nick with his Diesel Jeep Liberty? (He tow's his 19' Whaler with it...)
Binkie	posted 09-14-2006 08:41 AM ET (US) where2, You can get your bio diesel fuel at McDonald's or Wendy's among other restaurants for free. All you have to do is filter it. Check out greasecar.com. I know of a guy who buys his bio diesel fuel as Sam`s Club, so he doesn`t have to filter it. Rich
Plotman	posted 09-14-2006 12:02 PM ET (US) Diesiel fuel in 138 or 139,000 BTU per gallon, vs 124,000 BTU for standard gasoline - an 11% difference. However, Diesel engines also typically have a higher thermal efficiency than gasoline engines - in other words more of the heat content of the fuel goes to turning the wheels, and less out the tailpipe and radiator as heat, than in a gasoline engine, which also improves mileage.
jimh	posted 09-14-2006 07:57 PM ET (US) You may be able to use E85 in a vehicle for towing your Boston Whaler boat, but it is unlikely you will be able to use it as a fuel for an outboard motor on your Boston Whaler boat.
where2	posted 09-14-2006 11:53 PM ET (US) I need one of those Multi-Fuel E-Tec engines... I do scan the prices on virgin veggie oil in the grocery stores, but I have yet to see it in the $3/gallon range. I've seen greasecar.com If you poke around there, you'll notice many of their loyal followers are driving VW's. When will someone come out with a hardware or software "chip upgrade" for the E-Tec motors that allows them to run the multi-fuel diet? I'd like to smell doughnuts while I'm idling up the canal in the morning. :)