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Author Topic:   1971 OUTRAGE 21 Re-power

Bondbuyer posted 09-08-2006 10:20 AM ET (US)
I am restoring a 1971 Ribbed Outrage 21. The maximum horsepower rating is 200. I need some help in deciding on some deals I'm seeing:
--HONDA 225 leftover with five-year warranty, $11,000, installed. I've read links on pros/cons of overpowering;
--HONDA 200 2006 with five-year, $12,800, installed;
--YAMAHA 200 HP leftover, $8,900, just engine; need to pay for shipping, install, controls;
--YAMAHA 150, older, rebuilt, $5,000 ,comes with one-year warranty I believe. Guy advertises better than new. Not installed.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

The Judge posted 09-08-2006 12:37 PM ET (US)
That is a steal on the 225 so it would be hard to pass up. Problem is you do NOT need anything more than a 150 on that hull. I would be a tad worried putting a 600lb engine on a 40 year old transom though. You can get a new 150 Suzuki for under $9k w/6yr war. or a 175 for a tad more. They weigh 465lbs. I would also do a 150-200 small block E-Tec but they cost a fortune. Whatever you do, go with a modern engine(4stroke, DFI), resale and fuel mileage will be awesome.
Bondbuyer posted 09-08-2006 02:30 PM ET (US)
Thanks Judge.....bottom line is that I'll be worried about the transom no matter what I put on it! haha
Buckda posted 09-08-2006 02:42 PM ET (US)
The 225 will make that a 50+ MPH boat. Consult with your insurance re: their threshold for "performance" rates. Some are at 50, others at 55 MPH.
I disagree that E-TEC motors cost a "fortune" compared to the prices of other current outboard motors. I do agree that pretty much all outboards cost a "fortune" though. I think they're all overpriced, but the alternative is to drive a Sea Ray! :)

Seriously though, the 200 HP Yamaha would be a nice motor, but I agree with the Judge on the advice to go with current technology. You'll be happy you did...that 225 HP Honda would be really, REALLY hard to pass up.

PeteB88 posted 09-08-2006 11:30 PM ET (US)
Fishin pal has 200 Ficht on 21 ribbed Outrage and loves it and it is very fast - over 50 mph, certainly plenty of reserve power. I was on it a couple of weeks ago, nice setup. It seems that boat is perfect with that 200 and seems like it could take more but I don't own it and am not an expert. I doubt he thought much about the weight and has been running the guts out of it for 3-4 years, lives on the water - transom still there. I would bet green dollars that few people who own Whalers are as nutso and WOT in any conditions as my buddy with that Outrage 21 meaning if anyone was going to break off a transom or fail the hull he would have done it along time ago - owne the boat at least 12 years. Your call.
Bondbuyer posted 09-09-2006 07:01 AM ET (US)
Awesome advice guys - thanks! Pete - thats very encouraging!
crbenny posted 09-09-2006 07:59 AM ET (US)
Don't forget guys, that hull needs a shortshaft and I would think most leftovers in the hi horsepower range are going to be 25"
Chris
jimh posted 09-09-2006 08:00 AM ET (US)
The OUTRAGE 21 was rigged with twin engines. I've seen a set up with twin four-strokes, and the weight was not a problem.
Bondbuyer posted 09-09-2006 11:12 AM ET (US)
Thanks guys - making me feel much more confident about getting the 225 HP (main concern is the weight).....I just came from the Atlantic City boat show - amazing how much horsepower is being mounted on some boats today! not to mention the price tags that go along with them!
David Jenkins posted 09-09-2006 02:42 PM ET (US)
The 225 would be nice but your boat does not have a below-deck fuel tank so you might want to repower with a smaller 4-stroke that will burn fewer gallons per hour. You should be able to get nearly 50 mph with the new Suzuki 175 and I expect that you will burn only about five gallons per hour cruising at 25 mph.
PeteB88 posted 09-09-2006 03:47 PM ET (US)
You will have to strap your passengers at WOT - tell them to hang on while you giggle at them from the helm.
JayR posted 09-10-2006 09:02 PM ET (US)
I've got an E-TEC 150 on the back of mine and I think it is too much...
I have to tell my passengers to hold on every time I touch the throttle. It is a rocket and I am seriously concerned about someone losing there footing upon acceleration and falling out the back.
BOB KEMMLER JR posted 09-11-2006 03:12 AM ET (US)
Twin 90 Merc classic 2 strokes
anthonylisske posted 09-11-2006 06:26 PM ET (US)
All the engines sound real nice. I am impartial to yamahas, but that honda sounds real nice.
I have a yamaha 225 Vmax on my 1973 outrage and enjoy the HP greatly. I think you will have to consider the gas volume, but then again a fourstroke is pretty good for just local cruising on a fairly small tank (30 gal)
On that boat (and mine) the weight will not be an issue whatsoever.
good luck and don't forget to enjoy it.
Anthony
Martman posted 09-12-2006 04:00 PM ET (US)
Has anyone put a jack plate on one and installed a 25" shaft motor on this hull? I've got a 225hp Suzuki (1998) 2 stroke and my neighbor has the same hull that needs to be repowered.
anthonylisske posted 09-12-2006 06:03 PM ET (US)
Yes, I guy had a 73 and installed a brand new 25 inch yamaha w/jackplate. It worked real well (from what I heard)and pricewise, it may be the way to go. One thing to consider is the hieght of the power head. It could make the lines look a little ackward. I went through alot of pains to make sure I put on a 20 inch. But i am a real purist when it comes to symetry.
The advantage of doing that is you do not lock yourself into a 20 inch shaft that you could not swap to another boat.
(i.e I wanted to buy a 25 outrage, but could not afford to buy another motor @ 25 inches. I was locked into keeping my boat because I could not swap the engine.)
Additionally, if proportions don't matter, it is a good idea if it is cost effective
JayR posted 09-12-2006 07:05 PM ET (US)
There is not much room above the bilge to place the two lower bolts... http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8884/09112006001ok1.jpg
That being the case, on my Rite-Hite jack plate I do not have any more than three inches left for vertical adjustment.
http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/5138/09122006002bx2.jpg
Notice how close to the top of the transom the upper bolts were placed. Not much room to accommodate another two inches.
Without some serious modifications, mounting a 25" shaft with the Rite-Hite on this hull would be difficult.
Bondbuyer posted 09-13-2006 08:27 AM ET (US)
Thanks all for the help! I'm going down today to the marina armed with all of this info & pictures. I will return with some sort of power I hope?
WhaP3Lure posted 09-13-2006 12:18 PM ET (US)
My 77 21 Rage hits 43-45 MPH at 5200 RPM 25+ Gal. fuel and two adults. 98 Merc Optimax 135hp 25in. shaft with a stationary jack plate 4in. setback/mount all the way up 19 X 14.25 SS Atwood prop. PLENTY fast for that hull.
Bondbuyer posted 09-14-2006 10:13 AM ET (US)
OK, I'm still looking - one of the ideas that came up for the 225HP Honda which I thought was interesting: make the 225HP into a Jet Drive, which will essentially depower it down to approx 165hp equivalent, will eliminate the prop & be able to run in very shallow water. This would work well for the boats ultimate destination which will be in the caribbean - boating in shallow reef covered waters. Not sure if anyone has any advice on the Honda Jetdrives or any input on this idea in general?
Thanks!
The Judge posted 09-14-2006 11:48 AM ET (US)
That is an awesome idea if you don't mind paying up for the jst drive. There are companies out there that make them for all kinds of outboards, can't remember their name off hand but check e-bay and you will find the company. They are usually red in color. This is also great if you have a lot of people aboard, never have to worry about chopping anyone up.
Bondbuyer posted 09-14-2006 01:58 PM ET (US)
Actually, it is an option on Hondas & they have the part (I think another company makes it for them?) dealer said his cost for the jet drive was $1,300. They have to do the labor to change it out, but then I also won't need the stainless prop that was included in the deal (not sure how much they go for?) . They took me out on a smaller engine jetdrive - was pretty neat, but again I am not familiar with the long term differences? or other pros/cons?
Chesapeake posted 09-17-2006 07:57 PM ET (US)
Two years ago, my brother put a 150 Yammy 4-stroke on the exact same hull (71 dumptruck outrage). It is a very sweet set up. It has all the power you could want and is quiet and sips fuel.
The Judge posted 09-18-2006 11:38 AM ET (US)
No long term issues, etc...been doing it for years. Most people do not like them because it robs your hp but in this case, that is good. I think they are neat and have thought about a jet repower for years but hard to find down here and darn expensive new. Keep the lower unit and prop if you decide to change one day....or sell and pay off the jet.
george nagy posted 09-18-2006 05:16 PM ET (US)
Jayr, which model bracket did you use? Did you drill holes for the blind hole pattern in the bracket or are they the slotted ones for the bia pattern?
JayR posted 09-18-2006 08:00 PM ET (US)
I used the Rite-Hite bracket.
It was installed on a newly repaired transom with no holes as of yet drilled.
The bracket was placed so that the lower holes were mid way in the lower area. This left me with almost 3 inches of travel to adjust as needed with the cavitation plate 1 1/2" above the hull bottom. I've not moved it from the initial setting.
Clark Roberts posted 09-19-2006 07:16 AM ET (US)
Following is the other end of the repower spectrum. I just took a 200EFI Mariner off my 1975 Outrage 21 and replaced with a Mercury 3 cyl 90 hp. This because I could not use the blistering speed of the Mariner here in NE Fla. where 25mph max speeds are the law (it would run 30mph at 3K rpm and high 50's top end). The 90 is a 1999 84 cubic inch model and mounted on a T&H 8" setback manual jack plate swinging a 17" pitch vented Rapture stainless prop. So how does it run?! Very nicely! As expected the hole shot is not neck snapping but it digs out plenty fast and is on plane at about 15 mph@3K rpm and runs 20mph@4K rpm, 25mph@4500rpm, 30mph@5Krpm and 35mph@5600 max. Estimate fuel mileage at 4+mpg at steady 4500rpm. Above figures via Garmin GPS and with 40 gals fuel and my hefty 200lbs...temp 90 degrees/water 85degrees...Happy Whalin'... Clark
jimh posted 09-19-2006 08:54 AM ET (US)
[Moved this discussion of re-powering to join all of the thousands of other similar discussions in PERFORMANCE.]
jimh posted 09-19-2006 09:00 AM ET (US)
The classic 21-foot Whaler hull is easily driven, and a 150-HP motor provides very good performance. We had five adults and a dog aboard, and even with a 150-HP (that we later learned was only running on five of its six cylinders), we had no problem getting the boat on plane and running nicely at moderate speeds. A new 225-HP motor would really make these old boats fly.
I think it is prudent to be concerned about the weight of the motor and the load on the 35-year-old transom. If the hull structure is solid, however, there is no doubt it can handle a lot of motor.
JayR posted 09-19-2006 09:03 AM ET (US)
Clark, your post leaves me wishing that I had attempted to use my old 1988 Evinrude 88 SPL on this hull. I had considered it several times but never got around to doing it.

Glad to hear of your great results.
The Judge posted 09-19-2006 12:37 PM ET (US)
Like i have said...my 115 Suzuki is plenty on my 76 19' revenge and 40mph is fine by me. At 25mph and 4k I am getting over 5mpg.

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Author	Topic: 1971 OUTRAGE 21 Re-power
Bondbuyer	posted 09-08-2006 10:20 AM ET (US) I am restoring a 1971 Ribbed Outrage 21. The maximum horsepower rating is 200. I need some help in deciding on some deals I'm seeing: --HONDA 225 leftover with five-year warranty, $11,000, installed. I've read links on pros/cons of overpowering; --HONDA 200 2006 with five-year, $12,800, installed; --YAMAHA 200 HP leftover, $8,900, just engine; need to pay for shipping, install, controls; --YAMAHA 150, older, rebuilt, $5,000 ,comes with one-year warranty I believe. Guy advertises better than new. Not installed. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
The Judge	posted 09-08-2006 12:37 PM ET (US) That is a steal on the 225 so it would be hard to pass up. Problem is you do NOT need anything more than a 150 on that hull. I would be a tad worried putting a 600lb engine on a 40 year old transom though. You can get a new 150 Suzuki for under $9k w/6yr war. or a 175 for a tad more. They weigh 465lbs. I would also do a 150-200 small block E-Tec but they cost a fortune. Whatever you do, go with a modern engine(4stroke, DFI), resale and fuel mileage will be awesome.
Bondbuyer	posted 09-08-2006 02:30 PM ET (US) Thanks Judge.....bottom line is that I'll be worried about the transom no matter what I put on it! haha
Buckda	posted 09-08-2006 02:42 PM ET (US) The 225 will make that a 50+ MPH boat. Consult with your insurance re: their threshold for "performance" rates. Some are at 50, others at 55 MPH. I disagree that E-TEC motors cost a "fortune" compared to the prices of other current outboard motors. I do agree that pretty much all outboards cost a "fortune" though. I think they're all overpriced, but the alternative is to drive a Sea Ray! :) Seriously though, the 200 HP Yamaha would be a nice motor, but I agree with the Judge on the advice to go with current technology. You'll be happy you did...that 225 HP Honda would be really, REALLY hard to pass up.
PeteB88	posted 09-08-2006 11:30 PM ET (US) Fishin pal has 200 Ficht on 21 ribbed Outrage and loves it and it is very fast - over 50 mph, certainly plenty of reserve power. I was on it a couple of weeks ago, nice setup. It seems that boat is perfect with that 200 and seems like it could take more but I don't own it and am not an expert. I doubt he thought much about the weight and has been running the guts out of it for 3-4 years, lives on the water - transom still there. I would bet green dollars that few people who own Whalers are as nutso and WOT in any conditions as my buddy with that Outrage 21 meaning if anyone was going to break off a transom or fail the hull he would have done it along time ago - owne the boat at least 12 years. Your call.
Bondbuyer	posted 09-09-2006 07:01 AM ET (US) Awesome advice guys - thanks! Pete - thats very encouraging!
crbenny	posted 09-09-2006 07:59 AM ET (US) Don't forget guys, that hull needs a shortshaft and I would think most leftovers in the hi horsepower range are going to be 25" Chris
jimh	posted 09-09-2006 08:00 AM ET (US) The OUTRAGE 21 was rigged with twin engines. I've seen a set up with twin four-strokes, and the weight was not a problem.
Bondbuyer	posted 09-09-2006 11:12 AM ET (US) Thanks guys - making me feel much more confident about getting the 225 HP (main concern is the weight).....I just came from the Atlantic City boat show - amazing how much horsepower is being mounted on some boats today! not to mention the price tags that go along with them!
David Jenkins	posted 09-09-2006 02:42 PM ET (US) The 225 would be nice but your boat does not have a below-deck fuel tank so you might want to repower with a smaller 4-stroke that will burn fewer gallons per hour. You should be able to get nearly 50 mph with the new Suzuki 175 and I expect that you will burn only about five gallons per hour cruising at 25 mph.
PeteB88	posted 09-09-2006 03:47 PM ET (US) You will have to strap your passengers at WOT - tell them to hang on while you giggle at them from the helm.
JayR	posted 09-10-2006 09:02 PM ET (US) I've got an E-TEC 150 on the back of mine and I think it is too much... I have to tell my passengers to hold on every time I touch the throttle. It is a rocket and I am seriously concerned about someone losing there footing upon acceleration and falling out the back.
BOB KEMMLER JR	posted 09-11-2006 03:12 AM ET (US) Twin 90 Merc classic 2 strokes
anthonylisske	posted 09-11-2006 06:26 PM ET (US) All the engines sound real nice. I am impartial to yamahas, but that honda sounds real nice. I have a yamaha 225 Vmax on my 1973 outrage and enjoy the HP greatly. I think you will have to consider the gas volume, but then again a fourstroke is pretty good for just local cruising on a fairly small tank (30 gal) On that boat (and mine) the weight will not be an issue whatsoever. good luck and don't forget to enjoy it. Anthony
Martman	posted 09-12-2006 04:00 PM ET (US) Has anyone put a jack plate on one and installed a 25" shaft motor on this hull? I've got a 225hp Suzuki (1998) 2 stroke and my neighbor has the same hull that needs to be repowered.
anthonylisske	posted 09-12-2006 06:03 PM ET (US) Yes, I guy had a 73 and installed a brand new 25 inch yamaha w/jackplate. It worked real well (from what I heard)and pricewise, it may be the way to go. One thing to consider is the hieght of the power head. It could make the lines look a little ackward. I went through alot of pains to make sure I put on a 20 inch. But i am a real purist when it comes to symetry. The advantage of doing that is you do not lock yourself into a 20 inch shaft that you could not swap to another boat. (i.e I wanted to buy a 25 outrage, but could not afford to buy another motor @ 25 inches. I was locked into keeping my boat because I could not swap the engine.) Additionally, if proportions don't matter, it is a good idea if it is cost effective
JayR	posted 09-12-2006 07:05 PM ET (US) There is not much room above the bilge to place the two lower bolts... http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8884/09112006001ok1.jpg That being the case, on my Rite-Hite jack plate I do not have any more than three inches left for vertical adjustment. http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/5138/09122006002bx2.jpg Notice how close to the top of the transom the upper bolts were placed. Not much room to accommodate another two inches. Without some serious modifications, mounting a 25" shaft with the Rite-Hite on this hull would be difficult.
Bondbuyer	posted 09-13-2006 08:27 AM ET (US) Thanks all for the help! I'm going down today to the marina armed with all of this info & pictures. I will return with some sort of power I hope?
WhaP3Lure	posted 09-13-2006 12:18 PM ET (US) My 77 21 Rage hits 43-45 MPH at 5200 RPM 25+ Gal. fuel and two adults. 98 Merc Optimax 135hp 25in. shaft with a stationary jack plate 4in. setback/mount all the way up 19 X 14.25 SS Atwood prop. PLENTY fast for that hull.
Bondbuyer	posted 09-14-2006 10:13 AM ET (US) OK, I'm still looking - one of the ideas that came up for the 225HP Honda which I thought was interesting: make the 225HP into a Jet Drive, which will essentially depower it down to approx 165hp equivalent, will eliminate the prop & be able to run in very shallow water. This would work well for the boats ultimate destination which will be in the caribbean - boating in shallow reef covered waters. Not sure if anyone has any advice on the Honda Jetdrives or any input on this idea in general? Thanks!
The Judge	posted 09-14-2006 11:48 AM ET (US) That is an awesome idea if you don't mind paying up for the jst drive. There are companies out there that make them for all kinds of outboards, can't remember their name off hand but check e-bay and you will find the company. They are usually red in color. This is also great if you have a lot of people aboard, never have to worry about chopping anyone up.
Bondbuyer	posted 09-14-2006 01:58 PM ET (US) Actually, it is an option on Hondas & they have the part (I think another company makes it for them?) dealer said his cost for the jet drive was $1,300. They have to do the labor to change it out, but then I also won't need the stainless prop that was included in the deal (not sure how much they go for?) . They took me out on a smaller engine jetdrive - was pretty neat, but again I am not familiar with the long term differences? or other pros/cons?
Chesapeake	posted 09-17-2006 07:57 PM ET (US) Two years ago, my brother put a 150 Yammy 4-stroke on the exact same hull (71 dumptruck outrage). It is a very sweet set up. It has all the power you could want and is quiet and sips fuel.
The Judge	posted 09-18-2006 11:38 AM ET (US) No long term issues, etc...been doing it for years. Most people do not like them because it robs your hp but in this case, that is good. I think they are neat and have thought about a jet repower for years but hard to find down here and darn expensive new. Keep the lower unit and prop if you decide to change one day....or sell and pay off the jet.
george nagy	posted 09-18-2006 05:16 PM ET (US) Jayr, which model bracket did you use? Did you drill holes for the blind hole pattern in the bracket or are they the slotted ones for the bia pattern?
JayR	posted 09-18-2006 08:00 PM ET (US) I used the Rite-Hite bracket. It was installed on a newly repaired transom with no holes as of yet drilled. The bracket was placed so that the lower holes were mid way in the lower area. This left me with almost 3 inches of travel to adjust as needed with the cavitation plate 1 1/2" above the hull bottom. I've not moved it from the initial setting.
Clark Roberts	posted 09-19-2006 07:16 AM ET (US) Following is the other end of the repower spectrum. I just took a 200EFI Mariner off my 1975 Outrage 21 and replaced with a Mercury 3 cyl 90 hp. This because I could not use the blistering speed of the Mariner here in NE Fla. where 25mph max speeds are the law (it would run 30mph at 3K rpm and high 50's top end). The 90 is a 1999 84 cubic inch model and mounted on a T&H 8" setback manual jack plate swinging a 17" pitch vented Rapture stainless prop. So how does it run?! Very nicely! As expected the hole shot is not neck snapping but it digs out plenty fast and is on plane at about 15 mph@3K rpm and runs 20mph@4K rpm, 25mph@4500rpm, 30mph@5Krpm and 35mph@5600 max. Estimate fuel mileage at 4+mpg at steady 4500rpm. Above figures via Garmin GPS and with 40 gals fuel and my hefty 200lbs...temp 90 degrees/water 85degrees...Happy Whalin'... Clark
jimh	posted 09-19-2006 08:54 AM ET (US) [Moved this discussion of re-powering to join all of the thousands of other similar discussions in PERFORMANCE.]
jimh	posted 09-19-2006 09:00 AM ET (US) The classic 21-foot Whaler hull is easily driven, and a 150-HP motor provides very good performance. We had five adults and a dog aboard, and even with a 150-HP (that we later learned was only running on five of its six cylinders), we had no problem getting the boat on plane and running nicely at moderate speeds. A new 225-HP motor would really make these old boats fly. I think it is prudent to be concerned about the weight of the motor and the load on the 35-year-old transom. If the hull structure is solid, however, there is no doubt it can handle a lot of motor.
JayR	posted 09-19-2006 09:03 AM ET (US) Clark, your post leaves me wishing that I had attempted to use my old 1988 Evinrude 88 SPL on this hull. I had considered it several times but never got around to doing it. Glad to hear of your great results.
The Judge	posted 09-19-2006 12:37 PM ET (US) Like i have said...my 115 Suzuki is plenty on my 76 19' revenge and 40mph is fine by me. At 25mph and 4k I am getting over 5mpg.