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T-top Weight
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
T-top Weight
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| Author | Topic: T-top Weight |
| Royboy |
posted 10-08-2006 10:14 PM ET (US)  
I'm thinking of adding a T-top to my 17 Outrage and I'm cuious to test the effect on performance before I pull the trigger. Specifically, I'm curious whether it will decrease or increase the tendancy for my boat to porpoise. I intend to ballast the console with the appropriate weight and see how she rides with it. So tell me what your T-top weighs, and how big your boat is (so I have some idea of the proportions of the top). Roy |
| kamie |
posted 10-09-2006 09:37 PM ET (US)
call Atlantic Towers and ask them. They do stock and custom t-tops and should be able to give you weights. The t-top I have on my 18 Outrage is a hard top, probably weights 200 or more pounds and trim tabs are a must as the boat will porpose. The porposing was not quite as bad when the engine was mounted on the transom but mounted on the setback bracket it is really bad. |
| Buckda |
posted 10-09-2006 09:43 PM ET (US)
Roy - The weight may not be enough to recreate the effect of a T-Top. The wind resistance/profile of the top will affect the potential for porpoising. Did Whaler offer a T-Top as an option on the 17' Outrage? If so, you should be okay. Also - your tabs (though not full-fledge trim tabs) should help to arrest minor porpoising tendencies. Good luck on your project. We missed you last weekend. Dave |
| Royboy |
posted 10-10-2006 09:18 AM ET (US)
Thanks Dave, it was a gut wrenching decision not to go North last weekend, but circumstances dictated that I stay home. It was the right choice. A T-top was an option on the 17 Outrage, and there is at least one list member who has one. I know weight won't be the total answer, but if I get a problem with the weight alone, then I know the wind resistance will only exagerate it. I have noticed that a full fish box or live well will increase my tendancy to porpoise, as will a full fuel tank, although not as bad as the live well or fish box. With 452 lbs of engine hanging back there, any additional weight (like my kicker) adds to the tendancy. I guess I'm trying to justify the cost of the top; if it will help the handling, then it's a no brainer, if it's going to hurt the handling, it's out. Roy |
| martinmarine |
posted 10-10-2006 12:38 PM ET (US)
Hello, I just built a t-top for a 17 outrage 1998. Send me your email and I will be more than glad to put you in touch with the owner to discuss any affects. I can also send you some pictures of the top. My email is lunker@hargray.com. Best regards, Raymond Martin Martin Marine Design |
| kingfish |
posted 10-10-2006 01:26 PM ET (US)
Roy- Talk to Kieth Joy at Lakeside Marine on Lake Erie, Lakeside Ohio, near Marblehead. It's only a short run for you; Lakeside has a facility in the Detroit area too, but I think their fabrications are done at Lakeside, Ohio. There is no better fabricator *anywhere*. You get what you pay for, and to have Lakeside build what you want may cost more than a canned model from a fabricator like Atlantic Towers, but you will not get a better job done anywhere. John |
| kamie |
posted 10-10-2006 09:24 PM ET (US)
Roy, "I guess I'm trying to justify the cost of the top; if it will help the handling, then it's a no brainer, if it's going to hurt the handling, it's out." I don't know any boat where a t-top will help with handling. It will assist with providing dry electronics storage and a sturdy place to hang on too but a whaler is not a sail boat. You should know that the commercial division recomends all boats under 25 feet that have t-tops also have trim tabs. |
| Royboy |
posted 10-11-2006 09:56 AM ET (US)
Kamie, I was speaking in terms of the mass it will add and where that mass is in relation to the center of gravity. I currently have Smart Tabs. If needed, I can change to regular trim tabs. Roy |
| Smallfrye |
posted 10-11-2006 09:58 AM ET (US)
I installed a T-Top on a 20'OR and did not notice any tendency to porpose. The wind drag was considerable and with only 225 HP, it took a lot off the top end performance. If your a fisherman, it also causes a lot of "sail" when trying to drift. The boat was just a bit small for the surface area of the top and so was pushed around. If doing it again, I would consider an arch with attached flying top and seperate bimini for full coverage. |
| Royboy |
posted 10-12-2006 04:41 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the info smallfrye, but my boat already has a tendency to porpoise and I want to find out if adding a T-top will exagerate this tendency. I wouldn't expect a T-top to have any greater wind effect than a Bimini, except of course that one can put the Bimini down. Roy |
| Smallfrye |
posted 10-12-2006 05:35 PM ET (US)
Porposing is usually a function of over trim. When you begin to porpoise, pull the trim in an this should provide the most efficient trim angle. My 20' with a 10 " set back would run best at nearly 0 trim. Coming out of the hole, it would trim up and out of the hole nicly but at top end, I would need to trim in to nearly "0" for best results. |
| chesapeakecharlie |
posted 10-13-2006 07:33 PM ET (US)
Roy, I own a 20' classic Outrage that porpoised horribly despite my best trimming efforts----I know a 20 is different than a 18, but my point is that if you were to instal trim tabs (mine are Lenco 12in X 12in) you would be able to overcome any amount of porpoising your boat may presently have-----with or without the t-top. I know a 18' boat is a bit small for tabs in most cases, but to me, anyway, porpoising is more annoying than almost anything--------I am confident that you can put to rest this annoyance by installing trim tabs. Took me half an hour and about 400 dollars to do mine one afternoon. |
| early light |
posted 10-14-2006 09:40 PM ET (US)
I have a 93 outrage 19 with a 98 150 mariner on the back and a full t-top. Antennas, life vests, electronics, gaffs,6 rocket launchers, cockpit light, leader holders all on top plus rain suits, jackets, flares, 2nd vhf radio,and anything else My Wife can think of goes in the top box. Gps, depth finder, vhf, charts, everything else in and on the console box. Tackle and tools in the leaning post storage area. The wind effect on the top has had no effect on the boat while slow trolling live bait for kings, might have taken 4-5 mph off top end. Boat trims up for a flat ride with no trouble but it does seem real sensitive to the trim because I keep it on the edge most of the time The advantages of the top far outweigh the disadvantages for My use. donald |
| Don88outrage |
posted 10-15-2006 10:57 AM ET (US)
Roy, Fished my 18 Outrage for the first time yesterday since installing a C.E. Smith Stainless steel T top, here's the observations from a perspective of using the boat primairly for fishing. -Top with electronics box weighs around 100 lb. -No noticable porpoising, the feel seemed to be that the added weight amidship actually improved the ride. -Conditions we're not suitable, winds to 20 kts, to check for any speed loss though I assume there has to be some affect. -The T top is 60" wide (same as the OEM bimini) and 5" shorter than the bimini. -Being stainless steel the top frame blends quite well with the OEM brightwork. -Having the T top frame to hang on to in 2-3 foot seas is a nice convienience as well as an improved saftey factor. -Now have 360 degree fishability with a top on. -The gunwhales are cleaner, VHF antenna is on the top and bimini frame is gone. -Additional storage space in electronics box. -Will be adding front/side canvas enclosure for added comfort in wind/rain/cold, wish it was on yesterday with morning temps in the 30's. Go for it, good luck. Don
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| Royboy |
posted 10-16-2006 05:10 PM ET (US)
Thanks everyone, for your helpful advice. This is exactly what I've been looking for:
quote: Thanks, Don. Someone also came up with an owner of an identical boat that just installed a T-top, so I can get first-hand direct-comparison data fresh from the source. Thanks, Ray. And last but not least, I got a good recommendation on where to get a good one. Thanks, John. |
| andygere |
posted 10-16-2006 05:40 PM ET (US)
The most noticable effect that T-tops have on smaller boats is the tendency to lean into the wind when running at speed. This is probably the reason Whaler suggests using trim tabs on boats under 25 feet that are rigged with a T-top. That said, my Outrage 22 has a T-top, and the leaning is easily compensated for by adjusting dynamic load (getting the crew to move to the other side of the boat). The lean is not severe, but it is noticable. My best advice when considering a T-top is to evaluate what you want it to do. Mine is most valuable for providing mounting locations for rod holders, radar dome, antennas and electronics, and for providing shelter from wind and rain with the incorporated enclosure. It does not get terribly hot where I boat, so providing shade is not the primary goal. As a result, the canopy of the T-top is not very large compared to what is typically seen on a Florida boat of the same size. This reduces the tendency to lean, and probably reduces the amount of top speed I'm losing as well. Take this type of thing under consideration when and if you have one built. Here's a photo that gives you a better idea of when my reduced size T-top looks like: I never really thought much of T-tops until I bought a boat that has one. Now I'm a big fan |
| Buckda |
posted 10-16-2006 07:48 PM ET (US)
Andy - She looks sweet with the new E-TEC. Roy - does your 17 have a bimini now? I'd consider running her this fall on a very windy day - the bimini should provide the same "lean" effect as the T-TOP and will give you an idea of what you're dealing with there. My arch does not cause the boat to lean at all, but with the Mills Canvas, there is considerable lean into a wind (beyond the tendency of the classic hull to lean into the wind anyway). The Trim Tabs I added a few weeks ago has solved that problem right quickly. Sounds like Icthus is going to be a sweet setup for the rendezvous' next year. Speaking of which, you have to start attending more often, I need to learn how to catch more fish! Dave |
| Royboy |
posted 10-16-2006 08:31 PM ET (US)
Dave, There once was a Bimini on my Outrage, but it was long gone when I bought her. She did have quite a tendancy to lean into the wind without anything (Bimini nor top), but the Smart Tabs cured that. If even the frame had come with her, I'd probably just put new canvas on it and be done. Since I have to start from scratch, so to speak, I'd just as soon make her the way I'd prefer. I want to add a little shade and protection from rain, but retain the ability to fight a fish all the way around her. I also like the idea of adding a bit of storage for pfd's and electronics, and additional area to mount rod holders and antennae. Basically, all the reasons anyone opts for a T-top. What I'm worried about is upsetting the weight and balance of my boat, particularly with regards to the tendancy to porpoise. The discussion above raises a fresh concern when it comes to leaning into the wind, but I think both the tendancy to lean and to porpoise can be addressed with trim tabs if the need surpasses what my Smart Tabs already do. Thanks Dave, for missing us at the Rendezvous. I will endeavor to make them all in the coming season; I've got to start showing off this awesome Whaler! Roy |
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