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Author Topic:   Montauk 17: Re-power Options

boater12 posted 01-17-2007 05:26 PM ET (US)
I am seriously looking into re-powering my 1978 Montauk 17. Currently, I have a really good-running good-compression 1981 115 Evinrude V4 sitting on the back. Pushes the boat very well and gets what I would consider good fuel economy for an older two stroke (probably 3-4 mpg) but after using the calculator spreadsheet I've pretty much decided that it isn't financially worth it to keep on the boat. That said, I would like your opinions on the following. My primary criteria are: 1) fuel economy; 2) good hole shot combined with good top end and 3) noise reduction. I typically have 4 people on the boat (550 pounds, let's say) plus a 30-gallon tank. Occasionally do runs with just two people or myself alone.
Note that I am basically looking at 90 HP and that the Suzuki and Yamaha both seem very heavy:
Our local Suzuki dealer is very good and gives good prices plus there is always the seven-year warranty.
Honda's are more expensive but the new model claims 20% higher fuel efficiency and I love how they look. It seems to me that over it's lifetime that increase would pay for the added cost. Plus, Honda' are quiet and dependable. I am principally looking for input on whether you think the new BF90 would be the best choice for repowering.
Also would consider the Yamaha 4-stroke or an E-Tec 90.
If people could give me idea's of real world pricing on all of these engines, just which one they think will give me the most satisfaction (fuel economy and top end are fairly crucial, though I need good hole shot with the amount of time I spend pulling skiiers), and any other advice, I would love it. Right now, I'd be very interested in trying out an '07 Honda but I want to know how much better people think fuel efficiency will be over a Suzuki or Yamaha and whether the motor is worth the price. Also, don't know that much about the E-Tec but I may be able to be convinced to go that route.
Thanks in advance!
Chris
Buckda posted 01-17-2007 05:41 PM ET (US)
I've heard the Honda 90, and it is just as quiet as the E-TEC 90. The quieter motor is the Yamaha F115 (too heavy?). I've heard a lot of good news about the Suzuki in terms of noise (quiet) but I've not heard one in person.
If you're pushing a heavy load, I'd look at the E-TEC or Nissan/Tohatsu 2-stroke 90 HP (more torque).
There is no easy answer to your question, because it all depends on your needs/wants and motivations.
You stated that your existing motor runs great. Aside from environmental concerns and noise, I am wondering how you economically can justify getting rid of it? The math, in my opinion just does not work, unless you are experiencing significant repair bills on a regular basis to keep an older motor running. You said this is not the case.
If the justification is "because I want to" then so be it..but be sure to be honest with yourself on that front. Outboard motors (new) are expensive and someone will get your "good running" old motor for cheap (i.e.: at your expense).
All of that aside, you have a choice between performance/speed with a little more noise and a very small 2-stroke smell (ETEC and Nissan TLDI) or uber-quiet but not as peppy (various 4-stroke options). Reliability on a brand new motor will be about the same. Long-term reliability is as yet, unknown and should be factored (I don't know how) into your calculation. Your current engine has lasted a long time, it seems. Given a steady diet of oil and good gasoline and prudent maintenance, there's no reason to suspect it won't last a few more years?
Don't get me wrong. I just repowered. I was chasing down electrical gremlins in the OE motor that had also lived in Saltwater. It lasted 20 years though, which is good service for a saltwater boat/motor.
Good luck.
Dave
boater12 posted 01-17-2007 06:34 PM ET (US)
Assuming only $200 of maintenance/repair (includes winterizing), my old motor would still cost me more over the next five years. That is even over-assuming its fuel efficiency (4-6 gph depending how hard I'm running her on a conservative estimate). Plus, the boat will most likely get used more as the years go on, with my two brothers both hitting boat-usage years and my dad and uncle getting some use as well.
Still leaning towards the Honda 90, despite pricing. I feel like in the long run, fuel efficiency and increased resale would make the motor more efficient economically.
Link posted 01-17-2007 07:53 PM ET (US)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Honda is a carborated and the Yamaha and Merc 4 strokes are injected. The E-tec is a 2 stroke and is injected. I always thought I would like a Honda till I joined this forum and the whaler owners here have changed my mind. I run a 1990 115 Evinrude on my Montauk and love it. If I desided to repower I would take the advise from here and previous posts before I made a desision.
WT posted 01-17-2007 08:00 PM ET (US)
Link:
The 2007 Hondas are now injected.
Warren
crabby posted 01-17-2007 08:22 PM ET (US)
Let me be the first to say it: This is likely the most beat to death topic on this forum. Do a search. There is a wealth of information available here. And you will likely find that none of the new motors have ALL of their bugs worked out, but every one of them has their fanatical fanboys that will make your ears bleed if you besmirch their brand.
Since you have a good running 25 year old motor, just do it and buy that new Honda. Pickle that old Rude and let it sit on the side of the house just in case you need it. I'll bet in five years it is still sitting there, just waiting for you to find another old Montauk to hang it on. And no matter what troubles you may or may not have with the new (Honda; E-Tec; Verado; Suzuki; Tohatsu; Nissan; Go-Devil) you will be glad you made the move, as the new motor will (hopefully) instill confidence, save you fuel money, run quieter, help you catch more fish, and give you a spare motor so you can buy yet another boat to mess about in.
Personally, the 90 etec that replaced my nearly 20 year old 70hp Evinrude two years ago has had it's good and bad points, but overall I still haven't put the old moter back on the rig (thought about doing it, though...). And I use it year round so long as the bay is not solid ice.
Good luck,
pm
Perry posted 01-17-2007 08:44 PM ET (US)
My old carburated BF90 was quiet and had great fuel economy. The new fuel injected BF90 should do even better. It is now the lightest 90 HP 4 stroke on the market and even lighter thn the Suzuki DF70. There are a lot of cool features on the new BF90. At 416 lbs, the Suzuki DF90 might be a little heavy. The ETEC 90 is relatively light and good on fuel too.
A good dealership network makes a big difference as well; there are many Yamaha dealerships in the US. So lots of variables to consider. I'd like to read another 90 HP shootout in the magazines that include all the 90 HP motors. It should be a good read.
jimh posted 01-17-2007 10:22 PM ET (US)
A good dealer is a strong influence when making a decision on a new motor.
Most new motors have long warranty coverage, and, if you do have a problem, you will need a strong dealer to support your motor--they're complex devices.
ArtVandelay posted 01-17-2007 11:40 PM ET (US)
Chris it looks like you,ve done your homework on this one.
Go with Yamaha and stick with the 115 hp. I have a 115 Yamaha two stoke on my 86 montauk and I'll never go with anything else. Great for cruising, skiing and towing boats. Its a workhorse. You know how nice that extra bit of power comes in handy when you pile in 6 people and the boat still runs top speed. Im tellin you Chris, stay stong, if you don't you'll regret it.
Sure the fuel efficiency isn't is as great as a 90 but for what for you're gonna give up for downsizing, its worth it. I drive a four wheel drive truck and I am sure as hell not going to trade it in for a tiny four cylinder honda civic to save a couple bucks. But thats just my oppinion.
Everyone I have known with yamahas has great luck. Anyone who knows a good engine knows yamaha is the only way to go. Honda makes an outstanding engine also but I have heard from a few different people that hondas have been having corrosion problems (dont know the truth behind that).
Good luck with your decison. Just remember the summer's short, well at least on Cape Cod.
John
boater12 posted 01-18-2007 02:01 PM ET (US)
I have a quote for $8500 from a dealer down in Connecticut for everything. Does this sound pretty good? That quote includes taking off my old engine and install of the new one. Quote is on an '07 BF90. Anyone have any tips on bringing other dealers down more (everyone else is generally $9500-10500, with 10500 being more common)?
Also, will a non-dealer marina certified to do work on Honda's do work on a Honda engine that they didn't sell on one of their new boats? We have a marina nearby that sells new boats with Honda's but doesn't sell Honda's themselves. Just wondering because I don't want to travel to Connecticut for service.
Thanks to everyone already!
Chris
The Judge posted 01-18-2007 02:33 PM ET (US)
$8500 is not cheap unless that includes, tax and everything. Ed's has new 90'snot Honda but mostly everything else) for $6500 engine only so use that as a base.
Perry posted 01-18-2007 04:31 PM ET (US)
Chris, $8500 for a the removal of your old motor and installation of 2007 BF90 is a pretty good price. And, yes, a cetified Honda mechanic can do work on your motor even if he didn't sell it to you although I doubt your new Honda will need anything more than routine service.
Teak Oil posted 01-18-2007 05:53 PM ET (US)
Talk that dealer into giving you $1000 for your 115, otherwise sell it on eBay. It will get you at least $1000 and for $7500, you will be very happy with that Honda on there.
Thats a great price for the Northeast, which is the worst area to buy and outboard besides the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-18-2007 07:18 PM ET (US)
You need to check with that marina. I know of a Silicon
Valley boat yard that sells and services Evinrude/Johnson,
but won't work on them unless they are on a brand of boat they
sell (and they don't sell whalers). It's up the marina/
dealer/mechanic what boats they work on.

Chuck
Erik 88Montauk posted 01-19-2007 07:20 AM ET (US)
$8500 is a good price. I was recently (Sunday) quoted $8900 for the new Honda 90, removal of old motor, installation of new motor, new controls, gage and aluminum prop. This was from a high volume dealer in Florida that has provided good prices as compared to others based on my year long research into repower.

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Author	Topic: Montauk 17: Re-power Options
boater12	posted 01-17-2007 05:26 PM ET (US) I am seriously looking into re-powering my 1978 Montauk 17. Currently, I have a really good-running good-compression 1981 115 Evinrude V4 sitting on the back. Pushes the boat very well and gets what I would consider good fuel economy for an older two stroke (probably 3-4 mpg) but after using the calculator spreadsheet I've pretty much decided that it isn't financially worth it to keep on the boat. That said, I would like your opinions on the following. My primary criteria are: 1) fuel economy; 2) good hole shot combined with good top end and 3) noise reduction. I typically have 4 people on the boat (550 pounds, let's say) plus a 30-gallon tank. Occasionally do runs with just two people or myself alone. Note that I am basically looking at 90 HP and that the Suzuki and Yamaha both seem very heavy: Our local Suzuki dealer is very good and gives good prices plus there is always the seven-year warranty. Honda's are more expensive but the new model claims 20% higher fuel efficiency and I love how they look. It seems to me that over it's lifetime that increase would pay for the added cost. Plus, Honda' are quiet and dependable. I am principally looking for input on whether you think the new BF90 would be the best choice for repowering. Also would consider the Yamaha 4-stroke or an E-Tec 90. If people could give me idea's of real world pricing on all of these engines, just which one they think will give me the most satisfaction (fuel economy and top end are fairly crucial, though I need good hole shot with the amount of time I spend pulling skiiers), and any other advice, I would love it. Right now, I'd be very interested in trying out an '07 Honda but I want to know how much better people think fuel efficiency will be over a Suzuki or Yamaha and whether the motor is worth the price. Also, don't know that much about the E-Tec but I may be able to be convinced to go that route. Thanks in advance! Chris
Buckda	posted 01-17-2007 05:41 PM ET (US) I've heard the Honda 90, and it is just as quiet as the E-TEC 90. The quieter motor is the Yamaha F115 (too heavy?). I've heard a lot of good news about the Suzuki in terms of noise (quiet) but I've not heard one in person. If you're pushing a heavy load, I'd look at the E-TEC or Nissan/Tohatsu 2-stroke 90 HP (more torque). There is no easy answer to your question, because it all depends on your needs/wants and motivations. You stated that your existing motor runs great. Aside from environmental concerns and noise, I am wondering how you economically can justify getting rid of it? The math, in my opinion just does not work, unless you are experiencing significant repair bills on a regular basis to keep an older motor running. You said this is not the case. If the justification is "because I want to" then so be it..but be sure to be honest with yourself on that front. Outboard motors (new) are expensive and someone will get your "good running" old motor for cheap (i.e.: at your expense). All of that aside, you have a choice between performance/speed with a little more noise and a very small 2-stroke smell (ETEC and Nissan TLDI) or uber-quiet but not as peppy (various 4-stroke options). Reliability on a brand new motor will be about the same. Long-term reliability is as yet, unknown and should be factored (I don't know how) into your calculation. Your current engine has lasted a long time, it seems. Given a steady diet of oil and good gasoline and prudent maintenance, there's no reason to suspect it won't last a few more years? Don't get me wrong. I just repowered. I was chasing down electrical gremlins in the OE motor that had also lived in Saltwater. It lasted 20 years though, which is good service for a saltwater boat/motor. Good luck. Dave
boater12	posted 01-17-2007 06:34 PM ET (US) Assuming only $200 of maintenance/repair (includes winterizing), my old motor would still cost me more over the next five years. That is even over-assuming its fuel efficiency (4-6 gph depending how hard I'm running her on a conservative estimate). Plus, the boat will most likely get used more as the years go on, with my two brothers both hitting boat-usage years and my dad and uncle getting some use as well. Still leaning towards the Honda 90, despite pricing. I feel like in the long run, fuel efficiency and increased resale would make the motor more efficient economically.
Link	posted 01-17-2007 07:53 PM ET (US) Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Honda is a carborated and the Yamaha and Merc 4 strokes are injected. The E-tec is a 2 stroke and is injected. I always thought I would like a Honda till I joined this forum and the whaler owners here have changed my mind. I run a 1990 115 Evinrude on my Montauk and love it. If I desided to repower I would take the advise from here and previous posts before I made a desision.
WT	posted 01-17-2007 08:00 PM ET (US) Link: The 2007 Hondas are now injected. Warren
crabby	posted 01-17-2007 08:22 PM ET (US) Let me be the first to say it: This is likely the most beat to death topic on this forum. Do a search. There is a wealth of information available here. And you will likely find that none of the new motors have ALL of their bugs worked out, but every one of them has their fanatical fanboys that will make your ears bleed if you besmirch their brand. Since you have a good running 25 year old motor, just do it and buy that new Honda. Pickle that old Rude and let it sit on the side of the house just in case you need it. I'll bet in five years it is still sitting there, just waiting for you to find another old Montauk to hang it on. And no matter what troubles you may or may not have with the new (Honda; E-Tec; Verado; Suzuki; Tohatsu; Nissan; Go-Devil) you will be glad you made the move, as the new motor will (hopefully) instill confidence, save you fuel money, run quieter, help you catch more fish, and give you a spare motor so you can buy yet another boat to mess about in. Personally, the 90 etec that replaced my nearly 20 year old 70hp Evinrude two years ago has had it's good and bad points, but overall I still haven't put the old moter back on the rig (thought about doing it, though...). And I use it year round so long as the bay is not solid ice. Good luck, pm
Perry	posted 01-17-2007 08:44 PM ET (US) My old carburated BF90 was quiet and had great fuel economy. The new fuel injected BF90 should do even better. It is now the lightest 90 HP 4 stroke on the market and even lighter thn the Suzuki DF70. There are a lot of cool features on the new BF90. At 416 lbs, the Suzuki DF90 might be a little heavy. The ETEC 90 is relatively light and good on fuel too. A good dealership network makes a big difference as well; there are many Yamaha dealerships in the US. So lots of variables to consider. I'd like to read another 90 HP shootout in the magazines that include all the 90 HP motors. It should be a good read.
jimh	posted 01-17-2007 10:22 PM ET (US) A good dealer is a strong influence when making a decision on a new motor. Most new motors have long warranty coverage, and, if you do have a problem, you will need a strong dealer to support your motor--they're complex devices.
ArtVandelay	posted 01-17-2007 11:40 PM ET (US) Chris it looks like you,ve done your homework on this one. Go with Yamaha and stick with the 115 hp. I have a 115 Yamaha two stoke on my 86 montauk and I'll never go with anything else. Great for cruising, skiing and towing boats. Its a workhorse. You know how nice that extra bit of power comes in handy when you pile in 6 people and the boat still runs top speed. Im tellin you Chris, stay stong, if you don't you'll regret it. Sure the fuel efficiency isn't is as great as a 90 but for what for you're gonna give up for downsizing, its worth it. I drive a four wheel drive truck and I am sure as hell not going to trade it in for a tiny four cylinder honda civic to save a couple bucks. But thats just my oppinion. Everyone I have known with yamahas has great luck. Anyone who knows a good engine knows yamaha is the only way to go. Honda makes an outstanding engine also but I have heard from a few different people that hondas have been having corrosion problems (dont know the truth behind that). Good luck with your decison. Just remember the summer's short, well at least on Cape Cod. John
boater12	posted 01-18-2007 02:01 PM ET (US) I have a quote for $8500 from a dealer down in Connecticut for everything. Does this sound pretty good? That quote includes taking off my old engine and install of the new one. Quote is on an '07 BF90. Anyone have any tips on bringing other dealers down more (everyone else is generally $9500-10500, with 10500 being more common)? Also, will a non-dealer marina certified to do work on Honda's do work on a Honda engine that they didn't sell on one of their new boats? We have a marina nearby that sells new boats with Honda's but doesn't sell Honda's themselves. Just wondering because I don't want to travel to Connecticut for service. Thanks to everyone already! Chris
The Judge	posted 01-18-2007 02:33 PM ET (US) $8500 is not cheap unless that includes, tax and everything. Ed's has new 90'snot Honda but mostly everything else) for $6500 engine only so use that as a base.
Perry	posted 01-18-2007 04:31 PM ET (US) Chris, $8500 for a the removal of your old motor and installation of 2007 BF90 is a pretty good price. And, yes, a cetified Honda mechanic can do work on your motor even if he didn't sell it to you although I doubt your new Honda will need anything more than routine service.
Teak Oil	posted 01-18-2007 05:53 PM ET (US) Talk that dealer into giving you $1000 for your 115, otherwise sell it on eBay. It will get you at least $1000 and for $7500, you will be very happy with that Honda on there. Thats a great price for the Northeast, which is the worst area to buy and outboard besides the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-18-2007 07:18 PM ET (US) You need to check with that marina. I know of a Silicon Valley boat yard that sells and services Evinrude/Johnson, but won't work on them unless they are on a brand of boat they sell (and they don't sell whalers). It's up the marina/ dealer/mechanic what boats they work on. Chuck
Erik 88Montauk	posted 01-19-2007 07:20 AM ET (US) $8500 is a good price. I was recently (Sunday) quoted $8900 for the new Honda 90, removal of old motor, installation of new motor, new controls, gage and aluminum prop. This was from a high volume dealer in Florida that has provided good prices as compared to others based on my year long research into repower.