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Author Topic:   Classic Whaler With Non-OEM T-TOP

Fishcop posted 06-02-2007 02:52 AM ET (US)
[Please note, the several other instances of this discussion have been removed. You are welcome ot have this discussion, but you are not welcome to have it simultaneously in multiple threads in multiple discussion areas. Please do not re-post this same discussion to other dicussion areas or append it to other threads. This is a simple policy of the website: one thread per topic at a time. --jimh.]
Can anyone on this forum provide me with some documentation that Classic Montauk's or 17'-18' Outrages do not perform well with aftermarket or non-OEM T-Tops?
Does anyone own a Classic Montauk or 17'/18' Outrage with a T-Top that has had negative/positive performance problems or issues?
Are there any safety issues with the addition of a non-OEM T-Top on one of these Classic Whalers?
Did the designers of the Classic Whalers specifically not offer this t-top option for structural/Performance/Safety reasons or was it in the marketing of the small center console that could be easily towed, stored in a garage, etc?
Any thoughts on this matter?

Thanks
Andy

jimh posted 06-02-2007 09:02 AM ET (US)
I believe all classic Boston Whaler boats with T-tops have non-OEM T-tops. This is because I believe that Boston Whaler did not offer a T-top on their classic boat designs.
Dan posted 06-02-2007 09:17 AM ET (US)
In 1999 I bought a Montauk with a T-top and had to remove it. It was mounted to the deck without backing plates and was constantly coming loose. Plus Boston Whaler told me a T-top was dangerous and could cause the boat to flip on this model.
jimh posted 06-02-2007 09:40 AM ET (US)
Re your request for comments on the structural problems in the installationof a T-top on a smaller classic Boston Whaler boat:
The structure of a T-top has considerable wind resistance. The height of the T-top creates a long lever arm which can increase these forces. The fastening of the T-top to the hull structure must bear these loads.
The wind speeds involved may be very high in the case of a boat being towed on a trailer at highway speeds into head winds. The wind speed could be in excess of 86-MPH, or hurricane force. This could occur by driving at 65-MPH into a head wind of just 20-MPH. Smaller classic Boston Whaler boats are often towed by trailer on the highway at these speeds.
In addition to loads from wind loading, a T-top must tolerate other loads. The elements supporting the top are also used for support by passengers and crew on the boat. And the loads are subject to high shock loading. In a rough sea it is not unusual for someone to be thrown into or to grab onto a portion of a T-top.
Re your request for the intentions of the designers of smaller classic Boston Whaler boats:
It is hard to impute motives or thoughts into the heads of designers who were drawing the lines of these boats over thirty years ago, so one cannot say there was or was not a specific intention with regard to post-production installation of a T-top on the structure by a future owner after 20 to 30 years of use of the boat.
There are at least two possibilities in this regard. One choice is to assume that the existing structure of a classic Boston Whaler boat such as an OUTRAGE 18 was specifically designed to provide proper support and load bearing for the addition of any manner of T-top and will provide this for as long 30 years or more of service into the future without regard to the condition of the hull.
Another possibility is that the design of the hull was not conceived or tested for the loads which will be imposed by a large structure such as a T-top, even when the hull was new, let alone 20 to 30 years after original fabrication of the hull.
jimh posted 06-02-2007 09:46 AM ET (US)
Here is an anecdotal and random data point: I encountered a classic Boston Whaler boat to which a T-top was added. The boat was a 19-foot Outrage, c.1980, if I recall. The owner wished to join our party of boats cruising the area, and we welcomed him. A short while later he had to drop out and leave the flotilla. We hailed him on the radio to see it there was a problem to which we might be able to lend assistance. His T-top had become loose, again, and he proceeded at reduced speed to his dock for more repairs.
DeeVee posted 06-02-2007 10:02 AM ET (US)
I have a Boston Whaler options catalog from the mid eighties. A T-top is listed as an option on the 25' Outrage model, available with the 40" super console.
I am unsure of the exact year of the catalog, but one option that is listed that may tip off the vintage is Fiberglass Gun'l Boards (factory installed only).
Doug Vazquez
Fishcop posted 06-02-2007 11:43 AM ET (US)
Thanks JimH.
Dan, that is exactly the info I am looking for. Do you remember the manufacturer of the top? Did you experience any situations where you felt the boat was unsafe on the water?

Thanks
Andy
JayR posted 06-02-2007 08:15 AM ET (US)
There are literally tens of thousands of t-tops on boats of this size. As for Boston Whalers' decision not to offer one as an option, opinions abound in the same quantities...
I can tell you first hand that this boat has one...
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/BigJayR/boating/P9010149.jpg
and there have been no, none, zero, etc problems with it.
This boat is fished very hard, very hard, did I say VERY hard???
Broke a couple welds half way up but it has never come loose from the floor or console.
It made a slight difference in speed but since it is not a race boat, the slight drop is not an issue...
It catches a little more wind, but not enough to pose a problem. If it is windy enough to really push the boat around, it is windy enough to do so without a t-top as well. Nothing a sea anchor will not remedy.
There are no reasons not to install one if you want one. Many will try to talk you out of it but these same individuals have not had first hand experience and are speaking theories and assumptions.
Just do it and report back to all the nay-sayers so we can finally put this to rest...
jimh posted 06-03-2007 10:56 AM ET (US)
I rounded up a few more comments from the four or five versions of this discussion where were started in a flurry of a few hours and appended them here.
NJCoastFlyFish posted 06-03-2007 11:34 AM ET (US)
I saw a classic 16 with a t-top and it didn't look nice. It was a small t-top though probably made that way so that it didn't have that much of an affect when wind was around and the piping used to make it was so beefy it didn't fit the boats look.
Why do you think you need a t-top? If it is shade I would get a bimini top and raise it while fishing, or if it is storage there are always clever ways to add storage space to a boat.
jimh posted 06-03-2007 02:02 PM ET (US)
The discussion of why a particular boat owner desires a T-top is really not the focus of this discussion. There is really no debate on that topic. If a fellow wants a T-top, that is his preference.
Here we are discussing the classic Boston Whaler boats performance with non-OEM T-tops. One observation I would add to 'Fish's comment: I have also been surprised by the size of the support sections used on the Boston Whaler OEM T-tops. To use your adjective, there is a lot of "beef" in those designs. I believe that the reason the OEM Boston Whaler T-tops are built with such large structural sections is to provide the proper strength and support for the overall structure.
I am also personally aware that the design of the current Boston Whaler OEM T-top structure is currently being done with a great deal of scientific analysis of the forces involved. The stiffness of the T-top structure has to be matched to the stiffness of the hull at the attachment points. The head of Boston Whaler engineering described to me that using a T-top structure which was built with greater stiffness than the Boston Whaler boat hull was a problem. If the hull flexed slightly but the T-top did not, the result would be cracking. The two structures had to be designed to have comparable strength and flexibility, so at the point of attachment of the two they would not be fighting against each other.
These considerations are in addition to the concern I raised earlier regarding the strength of the hull at the point of the attachment. In the case of the OEM T-top this hull area has also been designed and reinforced to provide load bearing and suitable material for attachment of fasteners. My assumption is that the T-top is attached with through-bolts and there are backing plates.
In a classic Boston Whaler there may not be access to the underside of the deck at the point of attachment for adding backing plates.

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Author	Topic: Classic Whaler With Non-OEM T-TOP
Fishcop	posted 06-02-2007 02:52 AM ET (US) [Please note, the several other instances of this discussion have been removed. You are welcome ot have this discussion, but you are not welcome to have it simultaneously in multiple threads in multiple discussion areas. Please do not re-post this same discussion to other dicussion areas or append it to other threads. This is a simple policy of the website: one thread per topic at a time. --jimh.] Can anyone on this forum provide me with some documentation that Classic Montauk's or 17'-18' Outrages do not perform well with aftermarket or non-OEM T-Tops? Does anyone own a Classic Montauk or 17'/18' Outrage with a T-Top that has had negative/positive performance problems or issues? Are there any safety issues with the addition of a non-OEM T-Top on one of these Classic Whalers? Did the designers of the Classic Whalers specifically not offer this t-top option for structural/Performance/Safety reasons or was it in the marketing of the small center console that could be easily towed, stored in a garage, etc? Any thoughts on this matter? Thanks Andy
jimh	posted 06-02-2007 09:02 AM ET (US) I believe all classic Boston Whaler boats with T-tops have non-OEM T-tops. This is because I believe that Boston Whaler did not offer a T-top on their classic boat designs.
Dan	posted 06-02-2007 09:17 AM ET (US) In 1999 I bought a Montauk with a T-top and had to remove it. It was mounted to the deck without backing plates and was constantly coming loose. Plus Boston Whaler told me a T-top was dangerous and could cause the boat to flip on this model.
jimh	posted 06-02-2007 09:40 AM ET (US) Re your request for comments on the structural problems in the installationof a T-top on a smaller classic Boston Whaler boat: The structure of a T-top has considerable wind resistance. The height of the T-top creates a long lever arm which can increase these forces. The fastening of the T-top to the hull structure must bear these loads. The wind speeds involved may be very high in the case of a boat being towed on a trailer at highway speeds into head winds. The wind speed could be in excess of 86-MPH, or hurricane force. This could occur by driving at 65-MPH into a head wind of just 20-MPH. Smaller classic Boston Whaler boats are often towed by trailer on the highway at these speeds. In addition to loads from wind loading, a T-top must tolerate other loads. The elements supporting the top are also used for support by passengers and crew on the boat. And the loads are subject to high shock loading. In a rough sea it is not unusual for someone to be thrown into or to grab onto a portion of a T-top. Re your request for the intentions of the designers of smaller classic Boston Whaler boats: It is hard to impute motives or thoughts into the heads of designers who were drawing the lines of these boats over thirty years ago, so one cannot say there was or was not a specific intention with regard to post-production installation of a T-top on the structure by a future owner after 20 to 30 years of use of the boat. There are at least two possibilities in this regard. One choice is to assume that the existing structure of a classic Boston Whaler boat such as an OUTRAGE 18 was specifically designed to provide proper support and load bearing for the addition of any manner of T-top and will provide this for as long 30 years or more of service into the future without regard to the condition of the hull. Another possibility is that the design of the hull was not conceived or tested for the loads which will be imposed by a large structure such as a T-top, even when the hull was new, let alone 20 to 30 years after original fabrication of the hull.
jimh	posted 06-02-2007 09:46 AM ET (US) Here is an anecdotal and random data point: I encountered a classic Boston Whaler boat to which a T-top was added. The boat was a 19-foot Outrage, c.1980, if I recall. The owner wished to join our party of boats cruising the area, and we welcomed him. A short while later he had to drop out and leave the flotilla. We hailed him on the radio to see it there was a problem to which we might be able to lend assistance. His T-top had become loose, again, and he proceeded at reduced speed to his dock for more repairs.
DeeVee	posted 06-02-2007 10:02 AM ET (US) I have a Boston Whaler options catalog from the mid eighties. A T-top is listed as an option on the 25' Outrage model, available with the 40" super console. I am unsure of the exact year of the catalog, but one option that is listed that may tip off the vintage is Fiberglass Gun'l Boards (factory installed only). Doug Vazquez
Fishcop	posted 06-02-2007 11:43 AM ET (US) Thanks JimH. Dan, that is exactly the info I am looking for. Do you remember the manufacturer of the top? Did you experience any situations where you felt the boat was unsafe on the water? Thanks Andy
JayR	posted 06-02-2007 08:15 AM ET (US) There are literally tens of thousands of t-tops on boats of this size. As for Boston Whalers' decision not to offer one as an option, opinions abound in the same quantities... I can tell you first hand that this boat has one... http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/BigJayR/boating/P9010149.jpg and there have been no, none, zero, etc problems with it. This boat is fished very hard, very hard, did I say VERY hard??? Broke a couple welds half way up but it has never come loose from the floor or console. It made a slight difference in speed but since it is not a race boat, the slight drop is not an issue... It catches a little more wind, but not enough to pose a problem. If it is windy enough to really push the boat around, it is windy enough to do so without a t-top as well. Nothing a sea anchor will not remedy. There are no reasons not to install one if you want one. Many will try to talk you out of it but these same individuals have not had first hand experience and are speaking theories and assumptions. Just do it and report back to all the nay-sayers so we can finally put this to rest...
jimh	posted 06-03-2007 10:56 AM ET (US) I rounded up a few more comments from the four or five versions of this discussion where were started in a flurry of a few hours and appended them here.
NJCoastFlyFish	posted 06-03-2007 11:34 AM ET (US) I saw a classic 16 with a t-top and it didn't look nice. It was a small t-top though probably made that way so that it didn't have that much of an affect when wind was around and the piping used to make it was so beefy it didn't fit the boats look. Why do you think you need a t-top? If it is shade I would get a bimini top and raise it while fishing, or if it is storage there are always clever ways to add storage space to a boat.
jimh	posted 06-03-2007 02:02 PM ET (US) The discussion of why a particular boat owner desires a T-top is really not the focus of this discussion. There is really no debate on that topic. If a fellow wants a T-top, that is his preference. Here we are discussing the classic Boston Whaler boats performance with non-OEM T-tops. One observation I would add to 'Fish's comment: I have also been surprised by the size of the support sections used on the Boston Whaler OEM T-tops. To use your adjective, there is a lot of "beef" in those designs. I believe that the reason the OEM Boston Whaler T-tops are built with such large structural sections is to provide the proper strength and support for the overall structure. I am also personally aware that the design of the current Boston Whaler OEM T-top structure is currently being done with a great deal of scientific analysis of the forces involved. The stiffness of the T-top structure has to be matched to the stiffness of the hull at the attachment points. The head of Boston Whaler engineering described to me that using a T-top structure which was built with greater stiffness than the Boston Whaler boat hull was a problem. If the hull flexed slightly but the T-top did not, the result would be cracking. The two structures had to be designed to have comparable strength and flexibility, so at the point of attachment of the two they would not be fighting against each other. These considerations are in addition to the concern I raised earlier regarding the strength of the hull at the point of the attachment. In the case of the OEM T-top this hull area has also been designed and reinforced to provide load bearing and suitable material for attachment of fasteners. My assumption is that the T-top is attached with through-bolts and there are backing plates. In a classic Boston Whaler there may not be access to the underside of the deck at the point of attachment for adding backing plates.