Large Cuddy-Cabin Boat with Low-power Four-Cycle 50 to 90-HP

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Author Topic:   Large Cuddy-Cabin Boat with Low-power Four-Cycle 50 to 90-HP

Kingsteven18 posted 06-26-2008 07:24 AM ET (US)
I'm considering a project: I want to take a larger [cuddy cabin boat] and use it for a long range cruiser-trawler-type boat. I want to put a single 25-inch shaft four-cycle outboard on it. Speed is not a [concern]; reliability, safety and economy are. I'm looking for something in a high-thrust model along the lines of the Mercury Big Foot in a 50, 70, or 90-HP. Any recommendations? What's available? Thanks. Steve
Kingsteven18 posted 06-29-2008 06:39 AM ET (US)
OK, a 20" will do if you know of any.
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-29-2008 07:39 PM ET (US)
So you want to take a larger [cuddy cabin] type hull, under power it, and expect it to perform like a 150 - 225-HP, right? Forget it. They don't make high thrust 90 hp engines.
They make high thrust kickers that run props with about 2"- 4" of pitch and 14" of diameter to give you power, but not speed.
I don't think you could get a [cuddty cabin] on plane with a 50 - 70 - 90 hp engine.
Sal
Kingsteven18 posted 06-30-2008 07:12 AM ET (US)
Sal: I don't want it to plane. I want to use it at displacement speeds only. I want something larger than a trolling motor in case wind, current and tides require more hp to accomplish that. Mercury and Yamaha offer high thrust motors in the middle range. I'm looking for a bargain on one of those.
Kingsteven18 posted 06-30-2008 07:30 AM ET (US)
http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z84/kingsteven18/23%20Neptune%20230/ This is the boat. I just want to make a long-range gas -sipping cruiser out of it.
erik selis posted 06-30-2008 07:37 AM ET (US)
I've seen boats this size around here before with 50 or 60-hp engines on them. They cruise around in some strong currents as well. For cruising around they should be just fine for this boat. It will take some getting used to though.
Erik
jimh posted 06-30-2008 10:39 PM ET (US)
Be sure you really want a Boston Whaler REVENGE that only goes at displacement speed. We used to be very active sailors and were accustomed to sailing along at 5-MPH all day. Then we got into Boston Whalers.
One afternoon on our REVENGE we had some engine trouble and had to limp back to the harbor and we were limited to displacement speed. It took two hours to go 10-miles. We were bored to death. We looked at each other and realized that we were no longer sailors.
OK, enough of the anecdotes.
If you just want to go at displacement speeds, you probably don't even need 50-HP. You'll never get a REVENGE 20, REVENGE 22, or REVENGE 25 to plane with less than 90-HP. Well, you might get on plane with 70-HP if the boat were very light and you could surf down a wave or something to get over the transition. But, if getting on plane is out of the question, I think you could drive the boat to displacement speeds with a good 9.9-HP. Kingfish has an 8-HP on his OUTRAGE 22 and the little motor handles the boat quite well.
Peter posted 07-01-2008 06:46 AM ET (US)
The only reason I would opt for a larger low output motor is that the larger motors can swing larger diameter propellers that will improve docking control. Otherwise, a 15/20 HP kicker might be enough.
Kingsteven18 posted 07-01-2008 07:02 AM ET (US)
It's actually not a Revenge (see link above). I do have a 9.9 Yamaha High Thrust remote that I can use. I'm assuming that a larger 4 stroke could squeeze out a tiny bit more speed (not knowing exactly what the displacement speed would be). Also, the 9.9 would constantly have to run wide open and in spite of Yamaha's durability, I don't think that that's prudent. I'd rather put it on the trolling motor bracket and keep it for a back-up. I am prepared to go slow. I have other boats for other purposes. This is going to be my 'trailerable trawler', or, as some of you are saying, my 'trailerable crawler'.
HAPPYJIM posted 07-01-2008 09:03 AM ET (US)
I think you have a good idea going here. A 50hp setup would make a nice Chesapeake Bay cruiser. The 9.9 kicker would be great for trolling for fresh striper everyday.
cooper1958nc posted 07-01-2008 10:47 AM ET (US)
"They don't make high thrust 90's?"
O yes they do. Every day. Just put a small pitch prop on it, like what a pontoon boat or even a houseboat would run.
Big pontoon boats plane or semi-plane all the time with 90 hp. The magic is in the gearing.
Its a great idea to use a small engine to achieve a minimum clean planing speed. That is the most economical (and to some, most enjoyable) speed to run.
Buckda posted 07-01-2008 10:55 AM ET (US)
Hmm. This is an interesting idea, for sure. I agree; I'd want a larger motor than a 9.9 for this purpose, but since the motor will hardly ever (if at all) be run too much faster than 2,000 RPM, I'd be concerned about carbon build-up and the overall health of the motor. For that reason, I'd avoid a 75 or 90 HP motor, due to the increased cost for no additional performance. I'd be looking at a 25-40 HP motor, although I do like the idea of the larger gearcase able to swing a bigger prop on the 75-90 HP motors...I'll leave that discussion/debate to people with better information than me on the technicalities of that...but the 25 HP should give you enough "oomph" to power through steady seas, whereas a 9.9 is unlikely to provide that ability comfortably.
I would think that you will want to treat the engine liberally with a carbon-fighting fuel mixture (i.e. religious use of carbon-guard or whatever additive you might use that is designed to help with this potential problem).
I think this is certainly an interesting idea and despite low-resale probability for such an "underpowered" boat, if it is how you will use it - I'm all in favor of a purpose-rigged Whaler.
Anecdotally, I met a couple of guys out on Isle Royale (mid-lake Superior) a few years ago who bought a sailboat and dis-masted her, and erected a short (15') "communications mast" in it's place. They power it with a 9.9 HP Honda 4-stroke and use it to cruise all over the place. The sailboat hull is designed for efficiency at displacement speed, whereas the Revenge is designed to plane - so steering/handling and efficiency will all be affected by the original intended use of the design. You might be better served buying an older mid-size sail boat and converting it as described. It looked a little goofy, but they seemed to be quite pleased with it as a little cruiser.
Dave
jimh posted 07-01-2008 01:41 PM ET (US)
Dave brings in a good point. A v-hull boat which is carrying much less weight on its transom than originally intended, and, since it is a cuddy, probably has a lot of weight in the forward half of the boat, too, may not steer and track as well as you would like. Such a boat may have an awful tendency to bow-steer, and keeping it on track may require too much attention at the helm.
Tom W Clark posted 07-01-2008 02:11 PM ET (US)
It is not difficult to add weight. It the reverse that most boaters have trouble dealing with: shedding weight from the gear/fuel/ice laden boats.
Tohsgib posted 07-01-2008 02:11 PM ET (US)
Just stick the wife back there...it will even things out....err...I meant the cooler.
Kingsteven18 posted 07-01-2008 06:52 PM ET (US)
I was going to go the sailboat route and already have one: http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z84/kingsteven18/ 22%20Helsen%20Sailboat/
I was going to use a Yamaha 9.9 on it. I havn't tried it yet. I would prefer to have the larger cockpit of the cuddy cabin boat. Anyone want to buy the sailboat project?
Kingsteven18 posted 07-08-2008 09:46 PM ET (US)
OK, I found a 2000 Mercury 50hp four stroke (non-bigfoot) motor. The boat is around 4000 lbs and I made it clear that I'm not attempting to plane. I need recommendations for a prop please? Thanks.
sapple posted 07-09-2008 09:58 AM ET (US)
I think this is a great idea if it works. I would love to someday do a long distance cruise in a larger cabin boat on the ICW. I would be perfectly happy to cruise at a top speed of around 15 mph. My main reluctance is the cost of fuel. For that reason I have been looking at C-Dorys. If I could get Whaler quality and safety at reasonable fuel costs (but give up planning speeds) that would be OK with me. Is this really possible?
fishgutz posted 07-09-2008 11:59 AM ET (US)
There is a reason large displacement boats (which is what your's will be) use an inboard with a rudder or just plain big lower units. I think if you use a small outboard like even a 50 your handling will be compromised to a point of being unsafe in breezy (not even windy) conditions.
You will need a bigfoot type gearing and a lowpitch prop to move the boat around safely in any wind. Even a bigfoot 50 may not be enough. If you are in a tail wind, the motor may not have enough reverse thrust to keep you from slamming into a pier and injuring someone or causing property damage.
It's a cool idea but I think you are compromising TOO much performance. If it is always calm (wind and waves) and no other boater, I think you may be OK but you just can't predict that.
Basically I think it is unsafe.
DaveS posted 07-09-2008 11:50 PM ET (US)
This reminds me of a picture I saw about 5 years ago on another board. The guy posted an image of his boat, which seemed to be about the same size as yours, maybe even a tad larger. He had 3 engines, the main power source he used when leaving port and running the inlet, then he would power up the "kickers" and would cruise offshore. This way, if it got bad out there, he always had enough power to get home in a hurry.
Kingsteven18 posted 07-10-2008 05:54 AM ET (US)
I'll have a 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke High Thrust kicker as well. The deal on the 40 fell through, so I'm still looking for a midrange Mercury Bigfoot or Yamaha High Thrust.

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Author	Topic: Large Cuddy-Cabin Boat with Low-power Four-Cycle 50 to 90-HP
Kingsteven18	posted 06-26-2008 07:24 AM ET (US) I'm considering a project: I want to take a larger [cuddy cabin boat] and use it for a long range cruiser-trawler-type boat. I want to put a single 25-inch shaft four-cycle outboard on it. Speed is not a [concern]; reliability, safety and economy are. I'm looking for something in a high-thrust model along the lines of the Mercury Big Foot in a 50, 70, or 90-HP. Any recommendations? What's available? Thanks. Steve
Kingsteven18	posted 06-29-2008 06:39 AM ET (US) OK, a 20" will do if you know of any.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 06-29-2008 07:39 PM ET (US) So you want to take a larger [cuddy cabin] type hull, under power it, and expect it to perform like a 150 - 225-HP, right? Forget it. They don't make high thrust 90 hp engines. They make high thrust kickers that run props with about 2"- 4" of pitch and 14" of diameter to give you power, but not speed. I don't think you could get a [cuddty cabin] on plane with a 50 - 70 - 90 hp engine. Sal
Kingsteven18	posted 06-30-2008 07:12 AM ET (US) Sal: I don't want it to plane. I want to use it at displacement speeds only. I want something larger than a trolling motor in case wind, current and tides require more hp to accomplish that. Mercury and Yamaha offer high thrust motors in the middle range. I'm looking for a bargain on one of those.
Kingsteven18	posted 06-30-2008 07:30 AM ET (US) http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z84/kingsteven18/23%20Neptune%20230/ This is the boat. I just want to make a long-range gas -sipping cruiser out of it.
erik selis	posted 06-30-2008 07:37 AM ET (US) I've seen boats this size around here before with 50 or 60-hp engines on them. They cruise around in some strong currents as well. For cruising around they should be just fine for this boat. It will take some getting used to though. Erik
jimh	posted 06-30-2008 10:39 PM ET (US) Be sure you really want a Boston Whaler REVENGE that only goes at displacement speed. We used to be very active sailors and were accustomed to sailing along at 5-MPH all day. Then we got into Boston Whalers. One afternoon on our REVENGE we had some engine trouble and had to limp back to the harbor and we were limited to displacement speed. It took two hours to go 10-miles. We were bored to death. We looked at each other and realized that we were no longer sailors. OK, enough of the anecdotes. If you just want to go at displacement speeds, you probably don't even need 50-HP. You'll never get a REVENGE 20, REVENGE 22, or REVENGE 25 to plane with less than 90-HP. Well, you might get on plane with 70-HP if the boat were very light and you could surf down a wave or something to get over the transition. But, if getting on plane is out of the question, I think you could drive the boat to displacement speeds with a good 9.9-HP. Kingfish has an 8-HP on his OUTRAGE 22 and the little motor handles the boat quite well.
Peter	posted 07-01-2008 06:46 AM ET (US) The only reason I would opt for a larger low output motor is that the larger motors can swing larger diameter propellers that will improve docking control. Otherwise, a 15/20 HP kicker might be enough.
Kingsteven18	posted 07-01-2008 07:02 AM ET (US) It's actually not a Revenge (see link above). I do have a 9.9 Yamaha High Thrust remote that I can use. I'm assuming that a larger 4 stroke could squeeze out a tiny bit more speed (not knowing exactly what the displacement speed would be). Also, the 9.9 would constantly have to run wide open and in spite of Yamaha's durability, I don't think that that's prudent. I'd rather put it on the trolling motor bracket and keep it for a back-up. I am prepared to go slow. I have other boats for other purposes. This is going to be my 'trailerable trawler', or, as some of you are saying, my 'trailerable crawler'.
HAPPYJIM	posted 07-01-2008 09:03 AM ET (US) I think you have a good idea going here. A 50hp setup would make a nice Chesapeake Bay cruiser. The 9.9 kicker would be great for trolling for fresh striper everyday.
cooper1958nc	posted 07-01-2008 10:47 AM ET (US) "They don't make high thrust 90's?" O yes they do. Every day. Just put a small pitch prop on it, like what a pontoon boat or even a houseboat would run. Big pontoon boats plane or semi-plane all the time with 90 hp. The magic is in the gearing. Its a great idea to use a small engine to achieve a minimum clean planing speed. That is the most economical (and to some, most enjoyable) speed to run.
Buckda	posted 07-01-2008 10:55 AM ET (US) Hmm. This is an interesting idea, for sure. I agree; I'd want a larger motor than a 9.9 for this purpose, but since the motor will hardly ever (if at all) be run too much faster than 2,000 RPM, I'd be concerned about carbon build-up and the overall health of the motor. For that reason, I'd avoid a 75 or 90 HP motor, due to the increased cost for no additional performance. I'd be looking at a 25-40 HP motor, although I do like the idea of the larger gearcase able to swing a bigger prop on the 75-90 HP motors...I'll leave that discussion/debate to people with better information than me on the technicalities of that...but the 25 HP should give you enough "oomph" to power through steady seas, whereas a 9.9 is unlikely to provide that ability comfortably. I would think that you will want to treat the engine liberally with a carbon-fighting fuel mixture (i.e. religious use of carbon-guard or whatever additive you might use that is designed to help with this potential problem). I think this is certainly an interesting idea and despite low-resale probability for such an "underpowered" boat, if it is how you will use it - I'm all in favor of a purpose-rigged Whaler. Anecdotally, I met a couple of guys out on Isle Royale (mid-lake Superior) a few years ago who bought a sailboat and dis-masted her, and erected a short (15') "communications mast" in it's place. They power it with a 9.9 HP Honda 4-stroke and use it to cruise all over the place. The sailboat hull is designed for efficiency at displacement speed, whereas the Revenge is designed to plane - so steering/handling and efficiency will all be affected by the original intended use of the design. You might be better served buying an older mid-size sail boat and converting it as described. It looked a little goofy, but they seemed to be quite pleased with it as a little cruiser. Dave
jimh	posted 07-01-2008 01:41 PM ET (US) Dave brings in a good point. A v-hull boat which is carrying much less weight on its transom than originally intended, and, since it is a cuddy, probably has a lot of weight in the forward half of the boat, too, may not steer and track as well as you would like. Such a boat may have an awful tendency to bow-steer, and keeping it on track may require too much attention at the helm.
Tom W Clark	posted 07-01-2008 02:11 PM ET (US) It is not difficult to add weight. It the reverse that most boaters have trouble dealing with: shedding weight from the gear/fuel/ice laden boats.
Tohsgib	posted 07-01-2008 02:11 PM ET (US) Just stick the wife back there...it will even things out....err...I meant the cooler.
Kingsteven18	posted 07-01-2008 06:52 PM ET (US) I was going to go the sailboat route and already have one: http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z84/kingsteven18/ 22%20Helsen%20Sailboat/ I was going to use a Yamaha 9.9 on it. I havn't tried it yet. I would prefer to have the larger cockpit of the cuddy cabin boat. Anyone want to buy the sailboat project?
Kingsteven18	posted 07-08-2008 09:46 PM ET (US) OK, I found a 2000 Mercury 50hp four stroke (non-bigfoot) motor. The boat is around 4000 lbs and I made it clear that I'm not attempting to plane. I need recommendations for a prop please? Thanks.
sapple	posted 07-09-2008 09:58 AM ET (US) I think this is a great idea if it works. I would love to someday do a long distance cruise in a larger cabin boat on the ICW. I would be perfectly happy to cruise at a top speed of around 15 mph. My main reluctance is the cost of fuel. For that reason I have been looking at C-Dorys. If I could get Whaler quality and safety at reasonable fuel costs (but give up planning speeds) that would be OK with me. Is this really possible?
fishgutz	posted 07-09-2008 11:59 AM ET (US) There is a reason large displacement boats (which is what your's will be) use an inboard with a rudder or just plain big lower units. I think if you use a small outboard like even a 50 your handling will be compromised to a point of being unsafe in breezy (not even windy) conditions. You will need a bigfoot type gearing and a lowpitch prop to move the boat around safely in any wind. Even a bigfoot 50 may not be enough. If you are in a tail wind, the motor may not have enough reverse thrust to keep you from slamming into a pier and injuring someone or causing property damage. It's a cool idea but I think you are compromising TOO much performance. If it is always calm (wind and waves) and no other boater, I think you may be OK but you just can't predict that. Basically I think it is unsafe.
DaveS	posted 07-09-2008 11:50 PM ET (US) This reminds me of a picture I saw about 5 years ago on another board. The guy posted an image of his boat, which seemed to be about the same size as yours, maybe even a tad larger. He had 3 engines, the main power source he used when leaving port and running the inlet, then he would power up the "kickers" and would cruise offshore. This way, if it got bad out there, he always had enough power to get home in a hurry.
Kingsteven18	posted 07-10-2008 05:54 AM ET (US) I'll have a 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke High Thrust kicker as well. The deal on the 40 fell through, so I'm still looking for a midrange Mercury Bigfoot or Yamaha High Thrust.