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Author Topic:   GUARDIAN 19; Suzuki DF140

joeyuniz posted 05-27-2009 08:35 PM ET (US)
What pitch aluminum prop do you think my GUARDIAN 19 [with a new Suzuki DF140] will need? I will later get a stainless prop after break-in. I figure the total weight will be close to 3,700-lbs.
ASIDE: After searching and asking around different dealers the best deal I found still turned out to be Ed's. I plan on picking the motor up and rigging it myself.
jimh posted 05-27-2009 10:14 PM ET (US)
With 3,700-lbs and 140-HP, the estimated speed of a classic Boston Whaler will be 35-MPH.
If you tell me the gear ratio and the recommended wide-open-throttle operating speed range for the engine, I could estimate a propeller pitch that will put you into the 35-MPH range.
Tohsgib posted 05-28-2009 10:17 AM ET (US)
I have a like new Stiletto 14x20 that is for a Suzuki 90-140 4 stroke. Should be perfect for your boat.
Tohsgib posted 05-28-2009 10:18 AM ET (US)
PS it will be about the same price as a new aluminum...$195 to your door.
Smithsm posted 05-28-2009 12:55 PM ET (US)
is the Gaurdian 19' 8" long and weigh 2350 ?
joeyuniz posted 05-28-2009 08:13 PM ET (US)
Sorry I meant 2700lbs. It is usually only two others and I with three coolers and fishing gear. The boat has a 27 gallon Tempo tank under the leaning post because it never had the internal fuel tank. I was hoping for more like 40-42 mph for when I visit the lake.
jimh posted 05-28-2009 08:49 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the correction on the weight. Now we just need to know the gear ratio of your motor. What is the gear ratio of your motor?
joeyuniz posted 05-28-2009 09:24 PM ET (US)
I believe it is 2.59-1, my boat is actually 18.6 feet but is called a 19. I believe the hull is similar to the 18 outrage with a thicker layup.
jimh posted 05-28-2009 10:01 PM ET (US)
I enter the following into Crouch's Calculator
http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/crouchcalc.pl
LBS = 2,700
HP = 140
HULL FACTOR = 180
The calculator estimates top speed for a planing hull:
MPH = 41
Now we have a target speed based on the data supplied by joeyuniz. Any misrepresentation of the data creates error. I think the horsepower data is reasonable, as it is the manufacturer's rating. The hull factor data is reasonable, as it is based on a familiarity with Boston Whaler boats and some collective experience. The weight is based on Joey's estimate. If it is too low, the speed will be too high, and vice versa.
With the target speed of 41-MPH and the engine's speed and gear ratio, we now turn to the Propeller Calculator at
http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl
We never did hear from Joey about the recommended maximum engine speed for his engine, so we just pull a number out of thin air for this, based on some reasonable guess for a four-cycle motor. I suppose we could look it up on the Suzuki website, but that was Joey's responsibility. We input the following
RPM = 6,000 (wild guess)
RATIO = 2.59 (Joey's data)
SLIP = 10 (reasonable number based on experience)
MPH =41 (calculated per Joey's data by Crouch's Calculator)
Now we get a PITCH calculation;
PITCH = 20.8
This gives us a starting point for propeller pitch. Try a 21-inch pitch propeller. This recommendation is based on the weight given.
Perry posted 05-28-2009 10:13 PM ET (US)
I'm pretty sure the max RPM for the DF140 is 6200 RPM which when plugged into the prop calculator would be a 20 pitch propeller. The same size as the prop Nick has for sale for $195 delivered.
joeyuniz posted 05-28-2009 10:26 PM ET (US)
Yes it is 6200 rpms
jimh posted 05-29-2009 08:16 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the input on the maximum engine speed. We can recalculate as follows:
RPM = 6,200 (maximum engine speed)
RATIO = 2.59 (Joey's data)
SLIP = 10 (reasonable number based on experience)
MPH =41 (calculated per Joey's data by Crouch's Calculator)
Now we get a PITCH calculation;
PITCH = 20.1
This gives us a starting point for propeller pitch. Try a 20-inch pitch propeller. This recommendation is based on the weight given, 2,700-lbs.
Tohsgib posted 05-29-2009 10:54 AM ET (US)
That is why I said it would be perfect for his boat. At 6200 I was seeing about 41mph. My engine redlines at 6k so I dropped on a 22" and now I run about 5850WOT and about 39-40mph. Prop is really like new with about 40 hours of use and not a ding on it.
Tohsgib posted 05-29-2009 10:55 AM ET (US)
PS..it is poished SS so it looks sweet on that black engine.
L H G posted 05-29-2009 03:24 PM ET (US)
For [the Suzuki DF140 engine rated at 140-HP], I would use a HP of more like 125-130.
Tom W Clark posted 05-29-2009 04:45 PM ET (US)
125 HP, 130 HP, 140 HP. That's splitting hairs and a moot point besides.
For the Suzuki 140 I recommend the 14" x 20" Stiletto Advantage made by Precision propeller, makers of Suzuki's OE props.
If Nick has a slightly used one at that price, I'd jump on it.
jimh posted 05-29-2009 06:17 PM ET (US)
Suzuki rates the DF140 at 140-HP. What is the basis for derating it to 125-HP?
L H G posted 05-29-2009 06:33 PM ET (US)
Sorry guys, my mistake. I was thinking of something else. I had forgotten what a powerhouse that 140 Suzuki is. I have heard that it will smoke the 135 Optimax, much more than the 5 HP additional rating would indicate.
I think it is one of the best deals out there considering HP/dollar of purchase price.
joeyuniz posted 05-29-2009 08:10 PM ET (US)
I am not worried that the motor is a little weak. [What attracts me] is the reliability, fuel [economy], and overall value of the motor. I am not a speed freak, but I do want to be able to have the motor operating in the higher part of the RPM range for the days when I might have my family on the boat at the lake.
jimh posted 05-29-2009 08:26 PM ET (US)
The DF140 is believed to be the best selling motor of all Suzuki models. If people have any sort of factual data about the power output versus the rated power of a motor, it would be great to hear it.
jimh posted 05-29-2009 09:43 PM ET (US)
If you use a propeller with a pitch of 20-inches and a diameter of 14-inches, the PITCH/DIAMETER ratio will be
PITCH/DIAMTER = 20/14
PITCH/DIAMTER = 1.4
Dave Gerr in his PROPELLER HANDBOOK (pages 25-26) says:
"Very roughly...pitch ratios of around 1.4 can result in efficiencies as high as 0.74."
That is the optimum propeller efficiency of any PITCH/DIAMETER ratio, according to Gerr. He is a respected naval architect and the author of PROPELLER HANDBOOK. It sounds like this combination of SUZUKI DF140 and propeller should be very good. Give it a try and give us some real world data.
L H G posted 05-30-2009 02:32 AM ET (US)
As I said, any engine that can turn a 20" high rake prop up to 6200 on an 18 Guardian is a powerhouse. A 135 Optimax could only turn an 18" or 19" Enertia on that boat, and only to 5500.
jimh posted 05-30-2009 02:25 PM ET (US)
It sounds like the OptiMax doesn't have the proper gear reduction. Whose boat was it that you were out on with the OptiMax that was having trouble running the ENERTIA? Maybe we can help them out, too.
joeyuniz posted 05-30-2009 06:29 PM ET (US)
The Suzuki website shows [a different boat] going 42-MPH with a 14 x 22 prop at 5,800-RPM, so I think it is feasible that [on a Boston Whaler GUARDIAN 19 the Suzuki DF140] could swing a 20.

cban posted 05-31-2009 10:11 AM ET (US)
I have a Suzuki DF 140 on my 1999 Dauntless 180 with a banged up 13x21 prop. I max out at 5800 RPM at WOT at 42 mph with a half a tank of gas and a light load. The hull weight is different than the Guardian at 2000 lbs. Would the 14x20 Stilleto be a good replacement?
Tohsgib posted 06-01-2009 11:30 AM ET (US)
Yes it would...send me an e-mail and if Joey does not buy it in a few weeks, I will let you know. It is the prop Tom said above and who I originally bought it from.
Larry...C'mon!!! You actually posted that an Opti can't swing a 20" when you "should" know about different gear ratios???? The 90-140 Df's have a whopping 2.59 ratio.
Jimh...I do not have any serious proof but I have been in contact with about 5 members here who have a 19' Banana outrage or revenge with Df140's on them and they are getting the same performance that I am seeing with my 115. Now there are many variables and I believe I have mine setup really well but I do believe the 140's may be more like 130hp but again who cares. The only way to really tell is to rig mine with a 140 for a day but that is not going to happen.
L H G posted 06-01-2009 12:50 PM ET (US)
Jim is probably correct when he says the 2.0 gear ratio on the 135 Optimax or 2 liter 150 2-srokes "is not the proper gear reduction" (although he says it is on a much less powerful E-tec 90 which makes no sense to me at all).
jimh posted 06-01-2009 10:09 PM ET (US)
Huh? I have expressed my feelings about the gear ratios, and I don't recall passing judgements like that. Each engine has a gear ratio that may be more suitable for a particular application than for others. In this case, it looks like the DF140 gear ratio is allowing it to swing a propeller with a pitch/diameter ratio that is quite optimum.
We should begin a new thread to discuss how a different engine performs on this boat. If you have the test data for another engine on this same boat, and you want help picking a propeller for it, it would be best to start a new thread for that boat and engine combination.
cban posted 06-02-2009 01:23 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib,
I sent you my contact info.
joeyuniz posted 07-08-2009 11:16 PM ET (US)
Finally have some time to give a report on the recent re-power. Last week got to break the motor in for 7 hours down in Wenona and Chance Maryland. I spent the two weeks before that rewiring and rigging the engine and other new electronics to the boat. I decided to leave the battery in the rear splash well and was delighted to see that when the boat was at rest at the dock in the water it still sits level as when it had the previous motor. So far all I can say is wow! The motor is so quiet I couldn't believe it was running. Although the motor is still being broken in the manual did say that you could run wot for less than a minute after the first seven hours and at the end of the day I did just that. I saw 37.6 mph on the gps at 6000 rpms. This was with 4 men and fishing equipment two coolers with ice and one for tackle storage. The bay was also choppy that day and it was 85 degrees outside if that helps. I have heard that you gain some rpms after and during break in and I suspect I might be able to get a larger pitch prop for my regular fishing load of just my two sons and I. I am spinning the Stilleto prop I believe 14x20 and I will keep it for tubing and skiing. Here are some pics..http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/joeyuniz/
Tohsgib posted 07-09-2009 11:39 AM ET (US)
If you are only hitting 6k a 22 is going to be too big. I was hitting over 6200 and now am only getting about 5800 which would be too low for your higher reving engine. Run it with light load , let it go over redline so you know exactly where it is and then report back. A slight manipulation in the cup will bring it down a couple hundred rpms and cost like $25-40.

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Author	Topic: GUARDIAN 19; Suzuki DF140
joeyuniz	posted 05-27-2009 08:35 PM ET (US) What pitch aluminum prop do you think my GUARDIAN 19 [with a new Suzuki DF140] will need? I will later get a stainless prop after break-in. I figure the total weight will be close to 3,700-lbs. ASIDE: After searching and asking around different dealers the best deal I found still turned out to be Ed's. I plan on picking the motor up and rigging it myself.
jimh	posted 05-27-2009 10:14 PM ET (US) With 3,700-lbs and 140-HP, the estimated speed of a classic Boston Whaler will be 35-MPH. If you tell me the gear ratio and the recommended wide-open-throttle operating speed range for the engine, I could estimate a propeller pitch that will put you into the 35-MPH range.
Tohsgib	posted 05-28-2009 10:17 AM ET (US) I have a like new Stiletto 14x20 that is for a Suzuki 90-140 4 stroke. Should be perfect for your boat.
Tohsgib	posted 05-28-2009 10:18 AM ET (US) PS it will be about the same price as a new aluminum...$195 to your door.
Smithsm	posted 05-28-2009 12:55 PM ET (US) is the Gaurdian 19' 8" long and weigh 2350 ?
joeyuniz	posted 05-28-2009 08:13 PM ET (US) Sorry I meant 2700lbs. It is usually only two others and I with three coolers and fishing gear. The boat has a 27 gallon Tempo tank under the leaning post because it never had the internal fuel tank. I was hoping for more like 40-42 mph for when I visit the lake.
jimh	posted 05-28-2009 08:49 PM ET (US) Thanks for the correction on the weight. Now we just need to know the gear ratio of your motor. What is the gear ratio of your motor?
joeyuniz	posted 05-28-2009 09:24 PM ET (US) I believe it is 2.59-1, my boat is actually 18.6 feet but is called a 19. I believe the hull is similar to the 18 outrage with a thicker layup.
jimh	posted 05-28-2009 10:01 PM ET (US) I enter the following into Crouch's Calculator http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/crouchcalc.pl LBS = 2,700 HP = 140 HULL FACTOR = 180 The calculator estimates top speed for a planing hull: MPH = 41 Now we have a target speed based on the data supplied by joeyuniz. Any misrepresentation of the data creates error. I think the horsepower data is reasonable, as it is the manufacturer's rating. The hull factor data is reasonable, as it is based on a familiarity with Boston Whaler boats and some collective experience. The weight is based on Joey's estimate. If it is too low, the speed will be too high, and vice versa. With the target speed of 41-MPH and the engine's speed and gear ratio, we now turn to the Propeller Calculator at http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl We never did hear from Joey about the recommended maximum engine speed for his engine, so we just pull a number out of thin air for this, based on some reasonable guess for a four-cycle motor. I suppose we could look it up on the Suzuki website, but that was Joey's responsibility. We input the following RPM = 6,000 (wild guess) RATIO = 2.59 (Joey's data) SLIP = 10 (reasonable number based on experience) MPH =41 (calculated per Joey's data by Crouch's Calculator) Now we get a PITCH calculation; PITCH = 20.8 This gives us a starting point for propeller pitch. Try a 21-inch pitch propeller. This recommendation is based on the weight given.
Perry	posted 05-28-2009 10:13 PM ET (US) I'm pretty sure the max RPM for the DF140 is 6200 RPM which when plugged into the prop calculator would be a 20 pitch propeller. The same size as the prop Nick has for sale for $195 delivered.
joeyuniz	posted 05-28-2009 10:26 PM ET (US) Yes it is 6200 rpms
jimh	posted 05-29-2009 08:16 AM ET (US) Thanks for the input on the maximum engine speed. We can recalculate as follows: RPM = 6,200 (maximum engine speed) RATIO = 2.59 (Joey's data) SLIP = 10 (reasonable number based on experience) MPH =41 (calculated per Joey's data by Crouch's Calculator) Now we get a PITCH calculation; PITCH = 20.1 This gives us a starting point for propeller pitch. Try a 20-inch pitch propeller. This recommendation is based on the weight given, 2,700-lbs.
Tohsgib	posted 05-29-2009 10:54 AM ET (US) That is why I said it would be perfect for his boat. At 6200 I was seeing about 41mph. My engine redlines at 6k so I dropped on a 22" and now I run about 5850WOT and about 39-40mph. Prop is really like new with about 40 hours of use and not a ding on it.
Tohsgib	posted 05-29-2009 10:55 AM ET (US) PS..it is poished SS so it looks sweet on that black engine.
L H G	posted 05-29-2009 03:24 PM ET (US) For [the Suzuki DF140 engine rated at 140-HP], I would use a HP of more like 125-130.
Tom W Clark	posted 05-29-2009 04:45 PM ET (US) 125 HP, 130 HP, 140 HP. That's splitting hairs and a moot point besides. For the Suzuki 140 I recommend the 14" x 20" Stiletto Advantage made by Precision propeller, makers of Suzuki's OE props. If Nick has a slightly used one at that price, I'd jump on it.
jimh	posted 05-29-2009 06:17 PM ET (US) Suzuki rates the DF140 at 140-HP. What is the basis for derating it to 125-HP?
L H G	posted 05-29-2009 06:33 PM ET (US) Sorry guys, my mistake. I was thinking of something else. I had forgotten what a powerhouse that 140 Suzuki is. I have heard that it will smoke the 135 Optimax, much more than the 5 HP additional rating would indicate. I think it is one of the best deals out there considering HP/dollar of purchase price.
joeyuniz	posted 05-29-2009 08:10 PM ET (US) I am not worried that the motor is a little weak. [What attracts me] is the reliability, fuel [economy], and overall value of the motor. I am not a speed freak, but I do want to be able to have the motor operating in the higher part of the RPM range for the days when I might have my family on the boat at the lake.
jimh	posted 05-29-2009 08:26 PM ET (US) The DF140 is believed to be the best selling motor of all Suzuki models. If people have any sort of factual data about the power output versus the rated power of a motor, it would be great to hear it.
jimh	posted 05-29-2009 09:43 PM ET (US) If you use a propeller with a pitch of 20-inches and a diameter of 14-inches, the PITCH/DIAMETER ratio will be PITCH/DIAMTER = 20/14 PITCH/DIAMTER = 1.4 Dave Gerr in his PROPELLER HANDBOOK (pages 25-26) says: "Very roughly...pitch ratios of around 1.4 can result in efficiencies as high as 0.74." That is the optimum propeller efficiency of any PITCH/DIAMETER ratio, according to Gerr. He is a respected naval architect and the author of PROPELLER HANDBOOK. It sounds like this combination of SUZUKI DF140 and propeller should be very good. Give it a try and give us some real world data.
L H G	posted 05-30-2009 02:32 AM ET (US) As I said, any engine that can turn a 20" high rake prop up to 6200 on an 18 Guardian is a powerhouse. A 135 Optimax could only turn an 18" or 19" Enertia on that boat, and only to 5500.
jimh	posted 05-30-2009 02:25 PM ET (US) It sounds like the OptiMax doesn't have the proper gear reduction. Whose boat was it that you were out on with the OptiMax that was having trouble running the ENERTIA? Maybe we can help them out, too.
joeyuniz	posted 05-30-2009 06:29 PM ET (US) The Suzuki website shows [a different boat] going 42-MPH with a 14 x 22 prop at 5,800-RPM, so I think it is feasible that [on a Boston Whaler GUARDIAN 19 the Suzuki DF140] could swing a 20.
cban	posted 05-31-2009 10:11 AM ET (US) I have a Suzuki DF 140 on my 1999 Dauntless 180 with a banged up 13x21 prop. I max out at 5800 RPM at WOT at 42 mph with a half a tank of gas and a light load. The hull weight is different than the Guardian at 2000 lbs. Would the 14x20 Stilleto be a good replacement?
Tohsgib	posted 06-01-2009 11:30 AM ET (US) Yes it would...send me an e-mail and if Joey does not buy it in a few weeks, I will let you know. It is the prop Tom said above and who I originally bought it from. Larry...C'mon!!! You actually posted that an Opti can't swing a 20" when you "should" know about different gear ratios???? The 90-140 Df's have a whopping 2.59 ratio. Jimh...I do not have any serious proof but I have been in contact with about 5 members here who have a 19' Banana outrage or revenge with Df140's on them and they are getting the same performance that I am seeing with my 115. Now there are many variables and I believe I have mine setup really well but I do believe the 140's may be more like 130hp but again who cares. The only way to really tell is to rig mine with a 140 for a day but that is not going to happen.
L H G	posted 06-01-2009 12:50 PM ET (US) Jim is probably correct when he says the 2.0 gear ratio on the 135 Optimax or 2 liter 150 2-srokes "is not the proper gear reduction" (although he says it is on a much less powerful E-tec 90 which makes no sense to me at all).
jimh	posted 06-01-2009 10:09 PM ET (US) Huh? I have expressed my feelings about the gear ratios, and I don't recall passing judgements like that. Each engine has a gear ratio that may be more suitable for a particular application than for others. In this case, it looks like the DF140 gear ratio is allowing it to swing a propeller with a pitch/diameter ratio that is quite optimum. We should begin a new thread to discuss how a different engine performs on this boat. If you have the test data for another engine on this same boat, and you want help picking a propeller for it, it would be best to start a new thread for that boat and engine combination.
cban	posted 06-02-2009 01:23 PM ET (US) Tohsgib, I sent you my contact info.
joeyuniz	posted 07-08-2009 11:16 PM ET (US) Finally have some time to give a report on the recent re-power. Last week got to break the motor in for 7 hours down in Wenona and Chance Maryland. I spent the two weeks before that rewiring and rigging the engine and other new electronics to the boat. I decided to leave the battery in the rear splash well and was delighted to see that when the boat was at rest at the dock in the water it still sits level as when it had the previous motor. So far all I can say is wow! The motor is so quiet I couldn't believe it was running. Although the motor is still being broken in the manual did say that you could run wot for less than a minute after the first seven hours and at the end of the day I did just that. I saw 37.6 mph on the gps at 6000 rpms. This was with 4 men and fishing equipment two coolers with ice and one for tackle storage. The bay was also choppy that day and it was 85 degrees outside if that helps. I have heard that you gain some rpms after and during break in and I suspect I might be able to get a larger pitch prop for my regular fishing load of just my two sons and I. I am spinning the Stilleto prop I believe 14x20 and I will keep it for tubing and skiing. Here are some pics..http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff57/joeyuniz/
Tohsgib	posted 07-09-2009 11:39 AM ET (US) If you are only hitting 6k a 22 is going to be too big. I was hitting over 6200 and now am only getting about 5800 which would be too low for your higher reving engine. Run it with light load , let it go over redline so you know exactly where it is and then report back. A slight manipulation in the cup will bring it down a couple hundred rpms and cost like $25-40.