posted 08-05-2009 09:45 PM ET (US)     

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/499193-yamaha-reports-2q-results

Since they are not claiming they are No 1, like Mercury does, Mercury must have a higher percentage.

posted 08-06-2009 01:23 AM ET (US)         

"The U.S. marine market is stuck right now, but overall the situation is OK," Boisjoli said.

[BRP's] biggest competitors include Mercury Marine and Japanese engine makers Yamaha, Honda and Suzuki. Sales figures are closely held by the companies, but Mercury claims to have the largest share of the U.S. outboard engine market. Yamaha is probably in second place, according to industry analysts, followed by Suzuki, Honda, BRP and Nissan in no definite order."

http://www.jsonline.com/business/32506899.html

posted 08-06-2009 07:22 AM ET (US)            

Compared to the auto industry a while back, the outboard industry is very small considering. If 300,000 outboards are sold, that is considered a good year. In automotive terms, 300,000 is only 1 week of a good year's production. 300,000 outboards divided by 6 manufacurers makes for small numbers even for the top 3. Now break those numbers down by the number of models each company has, and the results are even smaller.

As of last year Mercury was #1 in US sales, followed closely by Yamaha. BRP was a ways in #3 and Honda and Suzuki very close together bringing up the rear. That may change for this year when the sales figures are tallied sometime next year as Merc and Yamaha are within a few points of each other.

By market sector some interesting info came out. Yamaha has the strongest sales in the coastal states and Florida is their biggest market where they dominate. Mercury is #1 in the midwest and non-coastal South. Evinrude is #1 in repowers.

posted 08-06-2009 09:18 AM ET (US)            

That 'jives' with the activity we've seen from Evinrude's marketing department. When you're #1 at something, your marketing tends to push effort in that direction to solidify and extend that position. Evinrude has targeted the repower market for at least a few months now on their Web site.

What will REALLY be interesting to observe (and perhaps is the subject for another thread entirely) is the following:

With 50 years of fiberglass boat development, we're seeing that a significant portion of the well constructed models are showing 'survivability' - in general, boats tend to be used less and last longer than cars. Combine that with a sagging global economy and it begs the question - will the "repower" market become an increasingly important (and larger) segment of the overall sales figures for outboard motors? I've seen a lot of old aluminum and fiberglass boats running around with classic and new power - just last week I saw an old Glasstron tri-hull with a new 75 HP E-TEC, a 1970's Outrage 21 with a 150 E-TEC and an older aluminum hull with a new OptiMax.

I believe we'll see more of this in the future. It may not ever surpass the number of "new" transoms needing motors every year, but I think it will play an increasingly important role - after all - if consumers are choosing one brand to repower - and that holds, then boatbuilders with the flexibility to offer their customers choices will do so.

posted 08-06-2009 09:31 AM ET (US)            

I still maintain that *for any bundled product or market* a more important measure of successful product manufacturing, sales, service and marketing is the number of consumers who choose your product on the merits of the product attributes and experience alone - not the related bundled items.

It's like going to a department store and buying a rack stereo system. Pioneer makes some great components, they also make some flaming turds. Their speakers? Blech. You get some good, some bad. Some rack systems are better than others, but all are a compromise in some components. I'd rather buy the DVD player, Amplifier, processor, turntable (yes, I said turntable), speaker wire and speakers seperately so I can buy the quality that I want.

I would bet that Yamaha is #2 in repowers.

In the case of outboards, Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda and Evinrude offer more "pure" examples of customer demand for the outboard motor (not the boat) than does Mercury.

It is possible, in fact, that Mercury lays claim to #1 sales not because of the motors themselves, but because of the desireable boat brands that their parent company owns.

There was this kid down the street growing up. I didn't really like him, but his parents were rich and he had an awesome basketball court in the side yard - painted lines and everything. All the kids played there and he was "popular" - if you measured popularity by how many kids were at his basketball hoop on a given weeknight.

Now - it is also possible that Mercury has the best motors on the water and would retain their #1 spot even if they were not provided automatically with every boat purchase from a Brunswick owned boat company...but then again, as the Tootsie Roll Owl used to say: "the world may never know".

posted 08-06-2009 10:28 AM ET (US)            

How do "we know that Evinrude is the leader in that market" when referring to the sales of loose motors?

posted 08-06-2009 03:57 PM ET (US)         

"As for Mercury's claim of "number one," it could mean almost anything. It does not inherently mean that Mercury must have a market share of US outboards that is greater than Yamaha."

I think the idea that Mercury and Yamaha are not big in re-powers is another false concept being peddled around here. Read Scream and Fly and you will get an opposite point of view on Mercs.

Mercury got to be #1 on two counts: 1. having a large supply of transoms, and loose sales/re-powers! I just bought 2 new Mercury engines for re-powering.

Who sells the most 2-stroke DFI's? Optimax or E-tec?

posted 08-06-2009 04:09 PM ET (US)            

From which retailer did you purchase those two loose Mercury motors?

Private parties don't count.

Scream and Fly is for the racing community, and while that community certainly qualifies as a subsection of the outboard repower market, I would argue that it is a very small subsection, just like people repowering their Whalers.

I can tell you this - and it is anecodtal - but I just spent two weeks cruising in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and Canada's Georgian Bay. In both locations, the number of boats with obvious repowers were far and away accounted for with Yamaha, Suzuki or Evinrude motors, with the heaviest prevalence on Yamaha and Evinrude. There were also some repowers with Honda motors, which I found interesting - their dealer network must be improving up here, reflecting their popularity in other areas.

posted 08-06-2009 05:17 PM ET (US)            

I don't know if we can go that far - it means that when people choose to repower their existing boat - they choose Evinrude, according to Seahorse's information.

But I'm willing to guess that a significant number of consumers choose to buy a new boat - where their choice of outboard is diluted by existing cobranding relationships.

So I'd limit it a little - for a bit more precision.

posted 08-06-2009 06:10 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I have been wondering about the breakdown of 2-strokes vs 4-strokes these days? I can't imagine that 2-strokes have more than 20% of total market.

Yamaha's business is probably at least 90% 4-stroke.

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The 2 stroke market is 41% right now on new motors sold. That is a pretty good percentage considering that for several years now, pundits kept saying 4-strokes will be about 90% of all motors sold. Optimax, HPDI, and E-TEC proved them wrong

posted 08-06-2009 06:36 PM ET (US)         

I assume that includes still popular conventional 2-strokes still being sold by Yamaha and Mercury. But it also means Optimax and E-tec together are huge sellers. Who would have thunk it?

And it also shows Suzuki and Honda having relative small percentage of marketshare. To listen to them, you'd never know it. With 59% 4-strokes, and 37% of that Yamaha, and with Mercury being fairly large in 4-strokes also, not much could be left for them.

posted 08-06-2009 08:11 PM ET (US)            

The premier Mercury motor, the VERADO, is too large, too heavy, and needs too much specialized rigging and support to be a strong candidate for re-power.

The second tier Mercury Veradito FOURSTROKE motors are very large and very heavy compared to the motors for which many older boats were designed.

The Mercury OptiMax motor is a viable re-power candidate, but it is still often larger, particularly in the 75 to 115-HP range, than existing motors.

Seconding Dave's observations, in Canada it was quite surprising to see many recent-model Boston Whaler boats with non-Mercury power on their transoms. I did see one newer Boston Whaler with a Verado L6 and one with a Verado L4, but there were several newer models with Yamaha or Honda power on the transom.

posted 08-06-2009 11:11 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

The 2 stroke market is 41% right now on new motors sold.

---

posted 08-07-2009 01:22 AM ET (US)         

So what do we have, being conservative:

1. Let's assume Mercury is just BARELY ahead of Yamaha's 37% share. Lets give Mercury 38%, which is way off from the 40's numbers they had a few years ago. That means Mercury and Yamaha have at least 75% combined share, leaving 25% to the other 4.

2. Let's give Tohatsu/Nissan only 2% share. That leaves 23%

3. Let's be very conservative and give Suzuki and Honda only 5% each.

4. that leaves 13% share to Evinrude's 2-strokes, which sounds reasonable, although I don't see them on the water in those proportions.

5. SO, with 41% 2-stroke total share, that must mean Mercury and old tech Yamaha's had 28% 2-stroke share. Let's give the old Merc and Yamaha 1 star's and V-max 5% market share, which will end 12/31. That means Optimax has around a 23% market share, which is pretty substantial, and means Mercury's 4-strokes are only another 15%, or Mercury sells more 2-strokes than it does 4-strokes. Find that very hard to believe.

posted 08-07-2009 03:32 AM ET (US)         

I am having a meeting in a few weeks with BRP about the 2010 models and what programs are going to run so I am sure I will find out what this Q figures are. I know we are doing more and more repowers and this week have rigged a 60HP, 115HP, 175HP E-TECs to older boats.

Cheers,

posted 08-11-2009 07:09 PM ET (US)         

Just my thoughts and I thought some might find it interesting what the other part of the world is doing. I like to hear and read what happens in the US and when I went to the Evinrude factory and Miami a few years ago the boats you guys have over there with triple and even quad V6 outboards are great boats and we do not see triple and more rigs here.

Cheers,