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Author Topic:   2003 Alert 15 with E-TEC 60-HP

4whaler posted 11-12-2009 05:55 PM ET (US)
[Editor's note: throughout this discussion the name of the Evinrude gauge being dicussed has been changed to I-Command.--jimh]
I'm hanging a E-TEC 60-HP on a 15-foot ALERT made up as a GLS II. I ordered up both the 13.2 x 19 aluminum and the 13-7/8 x 19 SST stainless propellers; the SST will go on first.
I also told the shop to jack the motor up about an inch or two to match the height of the Yamaha F60 that's coming off the GLS II and going over to my 15-foot Center Console to replace a Yamaha 70-HP two-cycle. I'll let you all know the outcome when I run the GLS II with the SST the weekend of the 14th of November, weather permitting.
One pain is that the new [I-Command] digital gauge for the E-TEC doesn't show trim for the small motors, 90-HP and below, so I have to have another hole drilled in the console to mount a manual analog trim gauge. The Yamaha digital shows all and is the only gauge currently installed in the GLS II console. Also the [I-Command] gauge apparently has an internal GPS chip that will show speed IF you install the hockey puck GPS antenna (made by Lowrance) for it that BRP didn't mention or ship with new gauge, controls, propeller, and cables. I am not going to bother with it as the Garmin 240 blue has a speedo paddle wheel installed on the back of the boat already that works just fine. The mechanic at D&D marine says the Yamaha and Mercury digital gauges are great and BPR missed the mark with the I-Command especially with the smaller engines. I almost put in a analog tachometer with system check but the price was almost the same for me and I had really gotten used to the Yamaha all in one digital. Oh thanks Forrest.
4whaler posted 11-12-2009 05:59 PM ET (US)
Picture link:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/ gls2%20port%20view%20lrez.jpg
jimh posted 11-13-2009 09:07 AM ET (US)
You are a bit confused about the I-Command gauges system. There is no GPS receiver built into any of the BRP I-Command gauges themselves. The gauges are NMEA-2000 network compliant, and if your network has a GPS receiver, the gauges will recognize the data from the GPS receiver. Lowrance has a low profile GPS receiver with NMEA-2000 network capability that is contained in a small enclosure that resembles what used to be just the antenna for the GPS. That device is not an antenna--it's the whole GPS receiver and also a network interface to the NMEA-2000 network backbone.
I don't think that the I-Command gauge system has "missed the mark." It really set the mark, as it was the first NMEA-2000 gauge system on the market. Actually, I don't think Yamaha has certified all of their engines and gauges to meet NMEA-2000 standard; I think only the gauges are certified or the engine is certified--it's one or the other.
I was not aware that there was no support for the trim gauge function in the 60-HP engine. I don't see why that would be the case. In all I-Command installations there needs to be a voltage supplied for the TRIM sensor and this is obtained with a particular harness or from the conventional gauge rigging. If your dealer did not order or install the proper harness, you won't get the trim gauge function. That may be your real problem.
Tohsgib posted 11-13-2009 10:54 AM ET (US)
Harnesses are all the same, just different lengths.
jimh posted 11-14-2009 08:47 AM ET (US)
I got a second confirmation that there is no TRIM function in the NMEA-2000 interface on the E-TEC engines of 90-HP or less. Apparently the engine management module (EMM) on those models does not have the necessary circuitry to monitor the trim sensor voltage and convert it to a digital signal. You will have to use a conventional trim gauge.
4whaler posted 11-16-2009 06:34 PM ET (US)
I ran the boat this weekend with the Evinrude stainless 13 7/8 x19p prop. Got 40mph at just a needle width over 5600rpm tick mark. Had it trimmed almost all the way down to the last tick mark plus a little up, on the manual trim gauge we installed ( I already do miss the digital Yamaha readout). It was proposing a little up off that lowest tick mark where I had to go to get the highest speed and rpm, but the boat settled back down when I went back down to the lowest tick mark with only a little loss of speed and rpm.
I had the aluminum 13.2 x 19p with me an tried to put on but didn't have all my tools so couldn't get the stainless props thick thrust washer off. The aluminum prop has a different thinner thrust washer. I tried to use the stainless one but it pushed the prop up the shaft just far enough that I couldn't get the lock nut turned down far enough to put the cotter pin in. Then I dropped the pin down into the hub, so said to hell with it, as I was standing in the water and my feet were starting to get cold and the sun was going down.
I got the boat to its home and used a magnetic pickup to get the pin out and then popped the thrust washer off using a thin flat tip screw driver and wood shim to keep the screw drive shaft from dinging up the pain on the hub rim. I then mounted the aluminum prop, after greasing the shaft with marine grease, the rigger hadn't put any on the shaft?
I'll run again this weekend as we are still in the 70's in north Alabama, but the water was cooler than that based on my feet being in it for 15 minutes while I pulled the stainless and tried to put on the aluminum one.
More on the trails with the aluminum one next week, plus maybe some photos.
The Evinrude tech says the 13 7/8 x 17p stainless will probably not be enough prop based on the above and I might get into over speed? I think he's right and I'll stick with the x19p. We will see how the aluminum 13.2 x 19p one does as its not cupped and has a smaller diameter.
4whaler posted 11-16-2009 06:41 PM ET (US)
The mechanic didn't install the [I-Command] gauge. He put in the analog needle with system check gauge that matched the analog trim guage BRP sent with the [I-Command]. I think that for a 15-foot classic GLS II that's all I need, anyway. I can always put the [I-Command] in and run the new cables for its signals pretty quick. I'll shop for the [NMEA-2000 network compatible GPS receiver which looks like a] hockey puck and if I find a cheap one may put it on too.
15ft90hp posted 11-20-2009 11:29 AM ET (US)
4whaler,
I love the look of your 15. Sorry I have no help with your prop issue. But, would really like to know how high your console is from the deck to the highest point? How about some more pictures also. What a great Whaler!
4whaler posted 11-20-2009 01:15 PM ET (US)
I'll try and remember to measure the GLS II console height this weekend when I run the boat again with the alum. prop to see how it performs compared to the stainless. I'll up date pictures then too. But until the here is public directory on my web site that shows some pictures of my GLS II and my old GLS I. They were taken to see how the heavier Alert/GLS II hull and heavier 4 stroke engine compared in performance to a standard weight GLS I and a light 60hp two stroke Evinrude.
If you look you can see that the Alert/GLS II with the [Yamaha] does sit lower in the water and does not get as high up on the water when on plane. I understand from the original owner Paul Mucciolo (PMUCCIOLO) that this 2003 GLS II was one of three custom made by Boston Whaler for special orders. I also understand that the interior molds for the console have been destroyed.
This link is a listing of picture files that you will have to open separately and then back arrow to get to the list to open the next on the list. I haven't gotten around to putting them up in a viewable directory yet.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/
Tohsgib posted 11-20-2009 01:16 PM ET (US)
You would see more speed and rpms if you trim it up more. Usually at WOT you can trim the heck out of it and she won't porpoise but when you throttle back it will start.
Tom W Clark posted 11-20-2009 01:25 PM ET (US)
It sounds as if the 19" SST puts your E-TEC 60 RPM right where it ought to be. If that is so then a 17" Stiletto Advantage would equal the RPM and allow the motor to go one more bolt hole up. This will reduce the porpoising.
4whaler posted 11-23-2009 12:31 PM ET (US)
Got to run Saturday with the Evinrude/BRP alum. 13.2x19p, it was less than satisfying. Best I could get showing on the analog tach needle was 5200rpm. I didn't check speed very closely though, don't ask me why. Regardless the alum. performed 400rmp less than the stainless VIPER which got 5600rpm and 40mph? I thought the alum. would spin faster being almost .75 less in diameter than the stainless prop. I will verify the VIPER performance next weekend with anything else I can get my hands on, I though the stainless was a SSP which was I though I ordered but noticed that VIPER written on the side of the prop. Its apparently similar to the SSP stainless according to the evinrude box that has all the prop types and their specs/uses printed on it. I put the stainless VIPER back on and boxed up the alum. one. The shop tech here says the new ETEC 60hp motor should spin up a little more as it gets broken in?
Too bad the like NIB props I have for the Johnson/zuki 140 won't fit this engine, cause one is a x18p Stiletto I think I got from Tom Clarke several years ago. The 60Hp is 13 splines and the 140 15splines I think?
Anyone looking for a like new factory alum. BRP prop in 13.2x19p? I will trade for a similar x17 pitch, I need something for water sports and skiing. Also wouldn't mind finding a x17 pitch or the right x18 pitch in stainless.
I will a picture tonight.
4whaler posted 11-23-2009 12:42 PM ET (US)
ohh the ETEC is monted all the way up. I would have to add a jack plate to get anymore height, plus it still porpoised with the alum prop, but I did have a little more trim range.
The Grand Isl Marine Turbo Lift should be in by next week and we will see if it tames the porpoising like it did when I had the 60hp 4 stroke Yamaha on this hull. That engine is being move to my Center Console 15 to replace a good, but long in the tooth Yamaha 70hp 2 stroke, which is going over to replace the one on the Mischief, which is longer in tooth and a saltwater motor. Both still run good. I'll keep the spare 70 in case I find a good 15, needing new /old power. (yes I do collect them, I'd like to get my old GLS I back to put the 70 on to replace the old evinrude it has on it, but new owner loves it as is, so that's not likely to happen any time soon.
I agree that the 2 stroke 70 Yamaha is the best engine for the 15 foot classic hull. Wish I could find a modern replacement. The Yamaha 60 4stroke and this new 60hp ETEC come close but still don't have the out of the box performance and weight/balance advantage.
tedious posted 11-23-2009 02:02 PM ET (US)
Modern replacement: [url]http://www.sportfishingmag.com/article.jsp?ID=1000078590& cmpid=enews112009[/url]
Peter posted 11-23-2009 06:48 PM ET (US)
That modern replacement is more than 30 lbs heavier than the Yamaha 70 2-stroke.
tedious posted 11-24-2009 09:13 AM ET (US)
...yawn...
tedious posted 11-24-2009 10:28 AM ET (US)
BTW, although the Yamaha 70 is indeed pretty light, the 56 ci OMC 70, with power trim and tilt, comes in at 248 pounds. No one complains about that being too much for a 15-footer, but mention a 4-stroke that weighs a whole 12 pounds more and all of a sudden the weight is a big problem, because everybody KNOWS 4-strokes are heavy.
Tim
Peter posted 11-24-2009 11:03 AM ET (US)
Yawn... just stating fact. The 30 lbs is the equivalent of having an additional 6 to 7 gallon fuel tank behind the rear thwart seat.
What is the displacement of the new F70?
Tohsgib posted 11-24-2009 11:23 AM ET (US)
People here have 358lb Suzukis on their 15's and don't complain. The only people who complain about engine weight are the people who WISH they had a heavy modern engine. Maybe just a way to rationalize why they can't afford one, etc. I have a 240lb Suzuki on my 13 sport and I don't complain, nor does anyone who rides in it or follows me at a rendezvous, etc. It is only on this site where the guy with the 1981 35hp OMC running on 1 cyl says DON'T DO IT....WAY TOO MUCH WEIGHT!!! Well it is not too much. Would 50 lbs less be better...sure but so would 240lbs less. She would fly if the engine only weighed an ounce. The difference between another 6 gal tank and new 4 stroke/DFI is moot because with the new modern engine, you won't NEED the extra 6 gal tank that you currently have. Now this brings up another point. Modern 4 stroke/DFI is more weight by say 30lbs. It burns half the gas so you need to carry half the fuel. It does not require(usually) a seperate VRO tank so now you have a 30lb heavier engine but with a boat load more room in it due to 1 less gas tank and 1 less VRO tank. More than makes sense on a 13-17 boat where storage and room are priceless.
4whaler posted 11-24-2009 12:11 PM ET (US)
Hey, don't hijack my thread here. Im trying to provide a string that will document the performance of a classic 15 ft'r with a 60 hp ETEC. Lets take the best engine for the classic 15 and start another string. I'll do it right now.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/007030.html
Peter posted 11-24-2009 12:40 PM ET (US)
"The only people who complain about engine weight are the people who WISH they had a heavy modern engine."
If weight does not matter, then why did market dominating Yamaha go through ALL the recent effort to reduce the engine weight of their new outboards, including making a big deal about how light the new F70 is relative to the F75? They were certainly concerned about engine weight to the point of using some significant engineering measures to lighten the weight.
By the way, the Yamaha 60/70 2-stroke does not have a separate VRO tank. The Yamaha 60 2-stroke burns about 0.5 to 0.6 GPH more than the F60 in the ICOMIA duty cycle. If you idled around all day long with both motors, then a gallon of gas would last twice as long with the F60 as compared to the 60 2-stroke. No one idles their motor all day long so the F60 is not going to burn 1/2 the amount of fuel.
Peter posted 11-24-2009 12:48 PM ET (US)
Back on track --
"I ran the boat this weekend with the Evinrude stainless 13 7/8 x19p prop. Got 40mph at just a needle width over 5600rpm tick mark."
I come out with a calculated slip of negative 6 percent based on this report. Is this motor on a jack plate? If not, I would check your tachometer for correct pole setting for the E-TEC 60.
Tohsgib posted 11-24-2009 12:55 PM ET (US)
I don't care what the ICOMIA duty says about anything. I KNOW how much more efficient they are per tank from my recent refits and I burn roughly half the gas from their 2 stroke counterpart per tank. Reading about stuff like this is BS. Just like 4Whaler states, it is forums like this that DOCUMENT performance on our classic Whalers with modern engines. My 1994 40 Evinrude had a VRO tank and its size was impeding on my interior along with 2 6 gal tanks. Now all I have in the stern is a battery and 1 tank. My new 40 burns so little it is hard to measure it. The last outing like we did last saturday I had to bum gas off Frank to get back. With the new 40 I still have 3.5 gals left in the tank. I did not have to raise my waterline either when I refit.
Tohsgib posted 11-24-2009 01:02 PM ET (US)
4Whaler I think 40mph with a 60 is very good on the much heavier configuration you are running compared to say a sport or CC model. The 2 cyl E-tec has also been "known" as a little slower than the competition. Some accredit this to the large gearcase...who knows. I would not be dissappointed in your results. Is 6k your redline? What does BRP recommend as WOT rpm?
Yes I agree that lighter is better and hence why Suzuki, Honda and Yamaha are going all out on the weight war. The question I bring up is when people say it is TOO HEAVY...how does one know until you try it. Bench seat racing is not very conclusive. I have owned just about every midsized engine classified as TOO HEAVY on classic Whalers and do not agree with the people who have never been on one to really know.
4whaler posted 11-24-2009 03:08 PM ET (US)
I will check pole setting on the manual tach and run the boat this weekend with the 13-7/8 x 19p VIPER stainless prop. The engine is not on a jackplate but at highest hole setting (bottom hole on upper bolts). Tach should be set at either 10 or 12, I'll have to find out which.
As I still have the [here again invented his own name for the Evinrude I-Command gauge, which I have already changed several times--HEY--please stop inventing a new name for these gauges. I am getting tired of changing it--jimh] in the box and the cables for it I'll see what it takes to put it in. IF it is drop-in it may be more accurate than the analog guage.
jimh posted 11-25-2009 12:28 AM ET (US)
The I-Command digital gauge reads the engine speed in 50-RPM increments.
4whaler posted 11-25-2009 01:43 AM ET (US)
Right, I-Command. To many years is the military.
Anyway here are two pics of the boat with the 60Hp ETEC; one in the water with me at helm, other on trailer after trail run with alum. prop.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/03GLSIIw60ETEC/ GLSIIw60ETEC.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/03GLSIIw60ETEC/ GLSIIw60ETECtrlr.jpg
4whaler posted 11-30-2009 12:44 AM ET (US)
Re-ran the Viper 13 7/8 x 19p(stainless polished)today, which turned out not to be the SST (painted stainless) I thought I had ordered, and got pretty well the same results as the first time. 3650 rpm and almost 39mph. I was using E-10 gas instead of the good straight stuff I did last time and think I lost a few hp. It still likes trim almost all the way down or it will start to porpoise. We will have to see if the Turbo Lift tames the porpoising like it did for the 60hp Yamaha 4 stroke I had on this hull.
Options? Do I drop down to the Viper 13 7/8 x 17p pn 763930? or look at a Rouge 4 blade in either 13 1/4 x 15p or 13 x 17p?
I need something that will pull a skier out on a single ski, the old 4 stroke Yami wouldn't do that so I went with the ETEC 60 with its supposed lower torque.
Anyone got a stainless x 17 pitch 13 spline V-4/ETEC BRP prop they will let me try? I have a x19p alum prop to loan or sell if you like it after a test run on your hull and engine?
4whaler posted 12-09-2009 10:32 AM ET (US)
13 7/8 x 17p Viper on the way in and 13.3 x 15p Stiletto from Tom on order. I'll post results when I run them. It will be interesting to see which of these two is the better for this motor (60hp ETEC) and boat (heavier than sport 15 lay up Alert 15/in GLS II dress) combination.

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Author	Topic: 2003 Alert 15 with E-TEC 60-HP
4whaler	posted 11-12-2009 05:55 PM ET (US) [Editor's note: throughout this discussion the name of the Evinrude gauge being dicussed has been changed to I-Command.--jimh] I'm hanging a E-TEC 60-HP on a 15-foot ALERT made up as a GLS II. I ordered up both the 13.2 x 19 aluminum and the 13-7/8 x 19 SST stainless propellers; the SST will go on first. I also told the shop to jack the motor up about an inch or two to match the height of the Yamaha F60 that's coming off the GLS II and going over to my 15-foot Center Console to replace a Yamaha 70-HP two-cycle. I'll let you all know the outcome when I run the GLS II with the SST the weekend of the 14th of November, weather permitting. One pain is that the new [I-Command] digital gauge for the E-TEC doesn't show trim for the small motors, 90-HP and below, so I have to have another hole drilled in the console to mount a manual analog trim gauge. The Yamaha digital shows all and is the only gauge currently installed in the GLS II console. Also the [I-Command] gauge apparently has an internal GPS chip that will show speed IF you install the hockey puck GPS antenna (made by Lowrance) for it that BRP didn't mention or ship with new gauge, controls, propeller, and cables. I am not going to bother with it as the Garmin 240 blue has a speedo paddle wheel installed on the back of the boat already that works just fine. The mechanic at D&D marine says the Yamaha and Mercury digital gauges are great and BPR missed the mark with the I-Command especially with the smaller engines. I almost put in a analog tachometer with system check but the price was almost the same for me and I had really gotten used to the Yamaha all in one digital. Oh thanks Forrest.
4whaler	posted 11-12-2009 05:59 PM ET (US) Picture link: http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/ gls2%20port%20view%20lrez.jpg
jimh	posted 11-13-2009 09:07 AM ET (US) You are a bit confused about the I-Command gauges system. There is no GPS receiver built into any of the BRP I-Command gauges themselves. The gauges are NMEA-2000 network compliant, and if your network has a GPS receiver, the gauges will recognize the data from the GPS receiver. Lowrance has a low profile GPS receiver with NMEA-2000 network capability that is contained in a small enclosure that resembles what used to be just the antenna for the GPS. That device is not an antenna--it's the whole GPS receiver and also a network interface to the NMEA-2000 network backbone. I don't think that the I-Command gauge system has "missed the mark." It really set the mark, as it was the first NMEA-2000 gauge system on the market. Actually, I don't think Yamaha has certified all of their engines and gauges to meet NMEA-2000 standard; I think only the gauges are certified or the engine is certified--it's one or the other. I was not aware that there was no support for the trim gauge function in the 60-HP engine. I don't see why that would be the case. In all I-Command installations there needs to be a voltage supplied for the TRIM sensor and this is obtained with a particular harness or from the conventional gauge rigging. If your dealer did not order or install the proper harness, you won't get the trim gauge function. That may be your real problem.
Tohsgib	posted 11-13-2009 10:54 AM ET (US) Harnesses are all the same, just different lengths.
jimh	posted 11-14-2009 08:47 AM ET (US) I got a second confirmation that there is no TRIM function in the NMEA-2000 interface on the E-TEC engines of 90-HP or less. Apparently the engine management module (EMM) on those models does not have the necessary circuitry to monitor the trim sensor voltage and convert it to a digital signal. You will have to use a conventional trim gauge.
4whaler	posted 11-16-2009 06:34 PM ET (US) I ran the boat this weekend with the Evinrude stainless 13 7/8 x19p prop. Got 40mph at just a needle width over 5600rpm tick mark. Had it trimmed almost all the way down to the last tick mark plus a little up, on the manual trim gauge we installed ( I already do miss the digital Yamaha readout). It was proposing a little up off that lowest tick mark where I had to go to get the highest speed and rpm, but the boat settled back down when I went back down to the lowest tick mark with only a little loss of speed and rpm. I had the aluminum 13.2 x 19p with me an tried to put on but didn't have all my tools so couldn't get the stainless props thick thrust washer off. The aluminum prop has a different thinner thrust washer. I tried to use the stainless one but it pushed the prop up the shaft just far enough that I couldn't get the lock nut turned down far enough to put the cotter pin in. Then I dropped the pin down into the hub, so said to hell with it, as I was standing in the water and my feet were starting to get cold and the sun was going down. I got the boat to its home and used a magnetic pickup to get the pin out and then popped the thrust washer off using a thin flat tip screw driver and wood shim to keep the screw drive shaft from dinging up the pain on the hub rim. I then mounted the aluminum prop, after greasing the shaft with marine grease, the rigger hadn't put any on the shaft? I'll run again this weekend as we are still in the 70's in north Alabama, but the water was cooler than that based on my feet being in it for 15 minutes while I pulled the stainless and tried to put on the aluminum one. More on the trails with the aluminum one next week, plus maybe some photos. The Evinrude tech says the 13 7/8 x 17p stainless will probably not be enough prop based on the above and I might get into over speed? I think he's right and I'll stick with the x19p. We will see how the aluminum 13.2 x 19p one does as its not cupped and has a smaller diameter.
4whaler	posted 11-16-2009 06:41 PM ET (US) The mechanic didn't install the [I-Command] gauge. He put in the analog needle with system check gauge that matched the analog trim guage BRP sent with the [I-Command]. I think that for a 15-foot classic GLS II that's all I need, anyway. I can always put the [I-Command] in and run the new cables for its signals pretty quick. I'll shop for the [NMEA-2000 network compatible GPS receiver which looks like a] hockey puck and if I find a cheap one may put it on too.
15ft90hp	posted 11-20-2009 11:29 AM ET (US) 4whaler, I love the look of your 15. Sorry I have no help with your prop issue. But, would really like to know how high your console is from the deck to the highest point? How about some more pictures also. What a great Whaler!
4whaler	posted 11-20-2009 01:15 PM ET (US) I'll try and remember to measure the GLS II console height this weekend when I run the boat again with the alum. prop to see how it performs compared to the stainless. I'll up date pictures then too. But until the here is public directory on my web site that shows some pictures of my GLS II and my old GLS I. They were taken to see how the heavier Alert/GLS II hull and heavier 4 stroke engine compared in performance to a standard weight GLS I and a light 60hp two stroke Evinrude. If you look you can see that the Alert/GLS II with the [Yamaha] does sit lower in the water and does not get as high up on the water when on plane. I understand from the original owner Paul Mucciolo (PMUCCIOLO) that this 2003 GLS II was one of three custom made by Boston Whaler for special orders. I also understand that the interior molds for the console have been destroyed. This link is a listing of picture files that you will have to open separately and then back arrow to get to the list to open the next on the list. I haven't gotten around to putting them up in a viewable directory yet. http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/
Tohsgib	posted 11-20-2009 01:16 PM ET (US) You would see more speed and rpms if you trim it up more. Usually at WOT you can trim the heck out of it and she won't porpoise but when you throttle back it will start.
Tom W Clark	posted 11-20-2009 01:25 PM ET (US) It sounds as if the 19" SST puts your E-TEC 60 RPM right where it ought to be. If that is so then a 17" Stiletto Advantage would equal the RPM and allow the motor to go one more bolt hole up. This will reduce the porpoising.
4whaler	posted 11-23-2009 12:31 PM ET (US) Got to run Saturday with the Evinrude/BRP alum. 13.2x19p, it was less than satisfying. Best I could get showing on the analog tach needle was 5200rpm. I didn't check speed very closely though, don't ask me why. Regardless the alum. performed 400rmp less than the stainless VIPER which got 5600rpm and 40mph? I thought the alum. would spin faster being almost .75 less in diameter than the stainless prop. I will verify the VIPER performance next weekend with anything else I can get my hands on, I though the stainless was a SSP which was I though I ordered but noticed that VIPER written on the side of the prop. Its apparently similar to the SSP stainless according to the evinrude box that has all the prop types and their specs/uses printed on it. I put the stainless VIPER back on and boxed up the alum. one. The shop tech here says the new ETEC 60hp motor should spin up a little more as it gets broken in? Too bad the like NIB props I have for the Johnson/zuki 140 won't fit this engine, cause one is a x18p Stiletto I think I got from Tom Clarke several years ago. The 60Hp is 13 splines and the 140 15splines I think? Anyone looking for a like new factory alum. BRP prop in 13.2x19p? I will trade for a similar x17 pitch, I need something for water sports and skiing. Also wouldn't mind finding a x17 pitch or the right x18 pitch in stainless. I will a picture tonight.
4whaler	posted 11-23-2009 12:42 PM ET (US) ohh the ETEC is monted all the way up. I would have to add a jack plate to get anymore height, plus it still porpoised with the alum prop, but I did have a little more trim range. The Grand Isl Marine Turbo Lift should be in by next week and we will see if it tames the porpoising like it did when I had the 60hp 4 stroke Yamaha on this hull. That engine is being move to my Center Console 15 to replace a good, but long in the tooth Yamaha 70hp 2 stroke, which is going over to replace the one on the Mischief, which is longer in tooth and a saltwater motor. Both still run good. I'll keep the spare 70 in case I find a good 15, needing new /old power. (yes I do collect them, I'd like to get my old GLS I back to put the 70 on to replace the old evinrude it has on it, but new owner loves it as is, so that's not likely to happen any time soon. I agree that the 2 stroke 70 Yamaha is the best engine for the 15 foot classic hull. Wish I could find a modern replacement. The Yamaha 60 4stroke and this new 60hp ETEC come close but still don't have the out of the box performance and weight/balance advantage.
tedious	posted 11-23-2009 02:02 PM ET (US) Modern replacement: [url]http://www.sportfishingmag.com/article.jsp?ID=1000078590& cmpid=enews112009[/url]
Peter	posted 11-23-2009 06:48 PM ET (US) That modern replacement is more than 30 lbs heavier than the Yamaha 70 2-stroke.
tedious	posted 11-24-2009 09:13 AM ET (US) ...yawn...
tedious	posted 11-24-2009 10:28 AM ET (US) BTW, although the Yamaha 70 is indeed pretty light, the 56 ci OMC 70, with power trim and tilt, comes in at 248 pounds. No one complains about that being too much for a 15-footer, but mention a 4-stroke that weighs a whole 12 pounds more and all of a sudden the weight is a big problem, because everybody KNOWS 4-strokes are heavy. Tim
Peter	posted 11-24-2009 11:03 AM ET (US) Yawn... just stating fact. The 30 lbs is the equivalent of having an additional 6 to 7 gallon fuel tank behind the rear thwart seat. What is the displacement of the new F70?
Tohsgib	posted 11-24-2009 11:23 AM ET (US) People here have 358lb Suzukis on their 15's and don't complain. The only people who complain about engine weight are the people who WISH they had a heavy modern engine. Maybe just a way to rationalize why they can't afford one, etc. I have a 240lb Suzuki on my 13 sport and I don't complain, nor does anyone who rides in it or follows me at a rendezvous, etc. It is only on this site where the guy with the 1981 35hp OMC running on 1 cyl says DON'T DO IT....WAY TOO MUCH WEIGHT!!! Well it is not too much. Would 50 lbs less be better...sure but so would 240lbs less. She would fly if the engine only weighed an ounce. The difference between another 6 gal tank and new 4 stroke/DFI is moot because with the new modern engine, you won't NEED the extra 6 gal tank that you currently have. Now this brings up another point. Modern 4 stroke/DFI is more weight by say 30lbs. It burns half the gas so you need to carry half the fuel. It does not require(usually) a seperate VRO tank so now you have a 30lb heavier engine but with a boat load more room in it due to 1 less gas tank and 1 less VRO tank. More than makes sense on a 13-17 boat where storage and room are priceless.
4whaler	posted 11-24-2009 12:11 PM ET (US) Hey, don't hijack my thread here. Im trying to provide a string that will document the performance of a classic 15 ft'r with a 60 hp ETEC. Lets take the best engine for the classic 15 and start another string. I'll do it right now. http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/007030.html
Peter	posted 11-24-2009 12:40 PM ET (US) "The only people who complain about engine weight are the people who WISH they had a heavy modern engine." If weight does not matter, then why did market dominating Yamaha go through ALL the recent effort to reduce the engine weight of their new outboards, including making a big deal about how light the new F70 is relative to the F75? They were certainly concerned about engine weight to the point of using some significant engineering measures to lighten the weight. By the way, the Yamaha 60/70 2-stroke does not have a separate VRO tank. The Yamaha 60 2-stroke burns about 0.5 to 0.6 GPH more than the F60 in the ICOMIA duty cycle. If you idled around all day long with both motors, then a gallon of gas would last twice as long with the F60 as compared to the 60 2-stroke. No one idles their motor all day long so the F60 is not going to burn 1/2 the amount of fuel.
Peter	posted 11-24-2009 12:48 PM ET (US) Back on track -- "I ran the boat this weekend with the Evinrude stainless 13 7/8 x19p prop. Got 40mph at just a needle width over 5600rpm tick mark." I come out with a calculated slip of negative 6 percent based on this report. Is this motor on a jack plate? If not, I would check your tachometer for correct pole setting for the E-TEC 60.
Tohsgib	posted 11-24-2009 12:55 PM ET (US) I don't care what the ICOMIA duty says about anything. I KNOW how much more efficient they are per tank from my recent refits and I burn roughly half the gas from their 2 stroke counterpart per tank. Reading about stuff like this is BS. Just like 4Whaler states, it is forums like this that DOCUMENT performance on our classic Whalers with modern engines. My 1994 40 Evinrude had a VRO tank and its size was impeding on my interior along with 2 6 gal tanks. Now all I have in the stern is a battery and 1 tank. My new 40 burns so little it is hard to measure it. The last outing like we did last saturday I had to bum gas off Frank to get back. With the new 40 I still have 3.5 gals left in the tank. I did not have to raise my waterline either when I refit.
Tohsgib	posted 11-24-2009 01:02 PM ET (US) 4Whaler I think 40mph with a 60 is very good on the much heavier configuration you are running compared to say a sport or CC model. The 2 cyl E-tec has also been "known" as a little slower than the competition. Some accredit this to the large gearcase...who knows. I would not be dissappointed in your results. Is 6k your redline? What does BRP recommend as WOT rpm? Yes I agree that lighter is better and hence why Suzuki, Honda and Yamaha are going all out on the weight war. The question I bring up is when people say it is TOO HEAVY...how does one know until you try it. Bench seat racing is not very conclusive. I have owned just about every midsized engine classified as TOO HEAVY on classic Whalers and do not agree with the people who have never been on one to really know.
4whaler	posted 11-24-2009 03:08 PM ET (US) I will check pole setting on the manual tach and run the boat this weekend with the 13-7/8 x 19p VIPER stainless prop. The engine is not on a jackplate but at highest hole setting (bottom hole on upper bolts). Tach should be set at either 10 or 12, I'll have to find out which. As I still have the [here again invented his own name for the Evinrude I-Command gauge, which I have already changed several times--HEY--please stop inventing a new name for these gauges. I am getting tired of changing it--jimh] in the box and the cables for it I'll see what it takes to put it in. IF it is drop-in it may be more accurate than the analog guage.
jimh	posted 11-25-2009 12:28 AM ET (US) The I-Command digital gauge reads the engine speed in 50-RPM increments.
4whaler	posted 11-25-2009 01:43 AM ET (US) Right, I-Command. To many years is the military. Anyway here are two pics of the boat with the 60Hp ETEC; one in the water with me at helm, other on trailer after trail run with alum. prop. http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/03GLSIIw60ETEC/ GLSIIw60ETEC.jpg http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/03GLSIIw60ETEC/ GLSIIw60ETECtrlr.jpg
4whaler	posted 11-30-2009 12:44 AM ET (US) Re-ran the Viper 13 7/8 x 19p(stainless polished)today, which turned out not to be the SST (painted stainless) I thought I had ordered, and got pretty well the same results as the first time. 3650 rpm and almost 39mph. I was using E-10 gas instead of the good straight stuff I did last time and think I lost a few hp. It still likes trim almost all the way down or it will start to porpoise. We will have to see if the Turbo Lift tames the porpoising like it did for the 60hp Yamaha 4 stroke I had on this hull. Options? Do I drop down to the Viper 13 7/8 x 17p pn 763930? or look at a Rouge 4 blade in either 13 1/4 x 15p or 13 x 17p? I need something that will pull a skier out on a single ski, the old 4 stroke Yami wouldn't do that so I went with the ETEC 60 with its supposed lower torque. Anyone got a stainless x 17 pitch 13 spline V-4/ETEC BRP prop they will let me try? I have a x19p alum prop to loan or sell if you like it after a test run on your hull and engine?
4whaler	posted 12-09-2009 10:32 AM ET (US) 13 7/8 x 17p Viper on the way in and 13.3 x 15p Stiletto from Tom on order. I'll post results when I run them. It will be interesting to see which of these two is the better for this motor (60hp ETEC) and boat (heavier than sport 15 lay up Alert 15/in GLS II dress) combination.