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Author Topic:   TEMPTATION 2200, Yamaha 225-HP

Cooter01 posted 03-15-2010 08:26 PM ET (US)
I recently purchased a 1988 Boston Whaler TEMPTATION 2200 with Whaler Drive and a 1988 YAMAHA 225 Excel. The boat rides with the bow very high even though the engine is not trimmmed out at all. Trimming the engine does not do anything. [The current propeller] is a 13.25-inch diameter and 17-inch pitch three-blade stainless.Is there is a better prop to lift up the stern?
The gearcase is 1:86. The [engine speed is] 5,900-RPM at about 35-MPH. I would sacrifice [the ability to have strong acceleration from a standing start] for better ride and better top end performance.
[H]ello to all. I just registered, and this is my first post. Thank you.
jimh posted 03-15-2010 10:11 PM ET (US)
From your description of the bow running "very high," something is amiss with your set up. With a 22-foot hull and Whaler Drive it will be almost impossible to get much bow rise. The Whaler Drive acts like a giant trim tab and holds the bow down. The running angle on plane should be no more than about six degrees as measured with respect to the gunwales. On my boat in some conditions I would like to get the bow to run higher, but it is impossible due to the Whaler Drive influence.
The ability of the engine to influence the running angle on a boat with a Whaler Drive is somewhat diminish by the trim tab effect of the Whaler Drive. I have tested over a dozen propellers on a 22-footer with a Whaler Drive. I notice that some propellers have a greater influence on the trim angle than others. Propellers that have a strong "bite" (for lack of a better term) see to be able to influence bow trim more than other propellers. As you have noted, with some propellers, engine trim hardly will affect the bow running angle.
Also, some propeller have more stern lift than others. In general you can judge a propeller's tendency to produce stern lift by noting the blade tip position with respect to the end of the exhaust hub. If the propeller blade tips are raked back so they extend past the end of the exhaust hub, the propeller will not have much stern lift.
jimh posted 03-16-2010 12:23 AM ET (US)
Please see the prior discussion
Running Angle On Plane
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004096.html
which contains several photographs of various Boston Whaler boats with Whaler Drives running on plane. Several of the REVENGE models shown have the same hull configuration as your 22-footer, and with their forward cabins the weight distribution should be similar to your TEMPTATION. As you will see, when on plane the planing angle as measured to the gunwales from horizontal is only five or six degrees. On a 22-foot boat this is only a bow rise of
22-feet x SIN(5-degrees) = 1.9-feet
It would be hard to characterize a bow rise of 1.9-feet as "very high."
Tom W Clark posted 03-16-2010 12:57 AM ET (US)
What sort of 225 HP motor turns a 13-1/4" diameter propeller?
The Yamaha Painted Stainless Steel propeller, with its semi-clever blade design, that is so common, are actually pretty good props, especially when stern lift is needed.
In general, large diameter and low blade rake are good for stern lift as are cleaver propellers.
I agree with Jim, however. It is hard to imagine a Whaler Drive equipped 22 would have trouble with excessive bow lift.
Can you clarify exactly what propeller you are using now? What shaft length is your motor? What set of bolt holes are used for its mounting?
Cooter01 posted 03-16-2010 09:43 PM ET (US)
I misread the numbers on the propeller. It is a 13 3/4 x 17M. Not sure who makes it, but it is a stainless three-blade not painted. It appears to have been reconditioned a few times because it has some markings from a reconditioning shop. I am not sure what may have been done to it. The engine is a 25-inch shaft mounted one hole up.
Thanks for the links to those pictures. I will try to get some of mine when I put it back in the water. Does 35 mph sound normal at [full throttle] for this set up? Thank you for your time
Tom W Clark posted 03-16-2010 10:43 PM ET (US)
Yep, 13-3/4" x 17" Yamaha Painted Stainless Steel prop. An oldie but a goodie, just not a very good application on your boat.

quote:
...it appears to have been reconditioned a few times...
Yep, that explains the lack of paint and the helps explain the poor performance.
The motor mounting height sounds good.
I recommend you try a 15-1/2" x 17" Mercury Mirageplus, 15-1/4" x 17" Yamaha Saltwater Series, 15-1/4" x 17" PowerTech OFS4 or a 14-5/8" x 18" Mercury Enertia propeller--for starters.
jimh posted 03-17-2010 08:27 AM ET (US)
On a 22-foot Boston Whaler hull with 225-HP the top speed should be above 40-MPH with light load. Speed is affected by boat weight. When my boat was heavily loaded the top speed dropped to about 38-MPH with an older 225-HP engine.
Cooter01 posted 03-18-2010 06:47 AM ET (US)
[This article was originally posted in all-capital letters. That style was used on old teletypewriters which lacked an upper or lower case because they used a Baudot 7-bit coding. However, here we use a full alphabet, and posting in ALL CAPS looks like something from a 1930's Western Union telegram.--jimh]
Thank you. I want to start with a known good propeller to make some valid comparisons
BQUICK posted 03-22-2010 02:39 PM ET (US)
Why not just try the same prop in a 19?
Should lower rpms to 5400-5500 and pick up 3-5 mph.
However, it is possible that the pitch of your "17" was changed when reconditioned.
BQUICK posted 03-22-2010 02:41 PM ET (US)
Also, 5900 is when the rev limiter cuts in so that might be limiting it.
jimh posted 03-22-2010 09:37 PM ET (US)
The process of making valid comparisons does not depend on starting with a particular propeller. To make valid performance comparisons you just have to minimize the influence of variables other than the propeller being tested.
All comparisons have to begin with some baseline data. Why not just start with the propeller you have now?
number9 posted 03-22-2010 11:38 PM ET (US)
By definition a baseline as we most conjure up thoughts of would have a value of average or numerically using zero to help represent +&-. The current prop apparently is already way south of baseline due to it's small diameter, motor, boat and reported performance.
jimh posted 03-23-2010 08:39 AM ET (US)
number9 proposes that the definition of "baseline" is:
"By definition a baseline...would have a value of average...."
The definition of baseline is much simpler; see number five below:
base·line
Function: noun
1 : a line serving as a basis; especially : one of known measure or position used (as in surveying or navigation) to calculate or locate something
2 a : either of the lines on a baseball field that lead from home plate to first base and third base and are extended into the outfield as foul lines b : base path
3 : a boundary line at either end of a court (as in tennis or basketball)
4 : a usually initial set of critical observations or data used for comparison or a control
5 : a starting point <the baseline of this discussion>
Cf.: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baseline
In any case, propeller testing is not an additive process. The results of one test do not influence the outcome of the next test, so the order in which propellers are tested is not significant. The data for propeller performance can be collected in any order, as long as the process is controlled for influence of other variables. One does not have to wait to begin collecting data until one has a special propeller which will have the average characteristics of the data set of the whole range of tested propellers. Indeed, the average of the propellers to be tested can't be known until after they are tested. If the average were known before the tests began, what would be the point of testing?

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Author	Topic: TEMPTATION 2200, Yamaha 225-HP
Cooter01	posted 03-15-2010 08:26 PM ET (US) I recently purchased a 1988 Boston Whaler TEMPTATION 2200 with Whaler Drive and a 1988 YAMAHA 225 Excel. The boat rides with the bow very high even though the engine is not trimmmed out at all. Trimming the engine does not do anything. [The current propeller] is a 13.25-inch diameter and 17-inch pitch three-blade stainless.Is there is a better prop to lift up the stern? The gearcase is 1:86. The [engine speed is] 5,900-RPM at about 35-MPH. I would sacrifice [the ability to have strong acceleration from a standing start] for better ride and better top end performance. [H]ello to all. I just registered, and this is my first post. Thank you.
jimh	posted 03-15-2010 10:11 PM ET (US) From your description of the bow running "very high," something is amiss with your set up. With a 22-foot hull and Whaler Drive it will be almost impossible to get much bow rise. The Whaler Drive acts like a giant trim tab and holds the bow down. The running angle on plane should be no more than about six degrees as measured with respect to the gunwales. On my boat in some conditions I would like to get the bow to run higher, but it is impossible due to the Whaler Drive influence. The ability of the engine to influence the running angle on a boat with a Whaler Drive is somewhat diminish by the trim tab effect of the Whaler Drive. I have tested over a dozen propellers on a 22-footer with a Whaler Drive. I notice that some propellers have a greater influence on the trim angle than others. Propellers that have a strong "bite" (for lack of a better term) see to be able to influence bow trim more than other propellers. As you have noted, with some propellers, engine trim hardly will affect the bow running angle. Also, some propeller have more stern lift than others. In general you can judge a propeller's tendency to produce stern lift by noting the blade tip position with respect to the end of the exhaust hub. If the propeller blade tips are raked back so they extend past the end of the exhaust hub, the propeller will not have much stern lift.
jimh	posted 03-16-2010 12:23 AM ET (US) Please see the prior discussion Running Angle On Plane http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004096.html which contains several photographs of various Boston Whaler boats with Whaler Drives running on plane. Several of the REVENGE models shown have the same hull configuration as your 22-footer, and with their forward cabins the weight distribution should be similar to your TEMPTATION. As you will see, when on plane the planing angle as measured to the gunwales from horizontal is only five or six degrees. On a 22-foot boat this is only a bow rise of 22-feet x SIN(5-degrees) = 1.9-feet It would be hard to characterize a bow rise of 1.9-feet as "very high."
Tom W Clark	posted 03-16-2010 12:57 AM ET (US) What sort of 225 HP motor turns a 13-1/4" diameter propeller? The Yamaha Painted Stainless Steel propeller, with its semi-clever blade design, that is so common, are actually pretty good props, especially when stern lift is needed. In general, large diameter and low blade rake are good for stern lift as are cleaver propellers. I agree with Jim, however. It is hard to imagine a Whaler Drive equipped 22 would have trouble with excessive bow lift. Can you clarify exactly what propeller you are using now? What shaft length is your motor? What set of bolt holes are used for its mounting?
Cooter01	posted 03-16-2010 09:43 PM ET (US) I misread the numbers on the propeller. It is a 13 3/4 x 17M. Not sure who makes it, but it is a stainless three-blade not painted. It appears to have been reconditioned a few times because it has some markings from a reconditioning shop. I am not sure what may have been done to it. The engine is a 25-inch shaft mounted one hole up. Thanks for the links to those pictures. I will try to get some of mine when I put it back in the water. Does 35 mph sound normal at [full throttle] for this set up? Thank you for your time
Tom W Clark	posted 03-16-2010 10:43 PM ET (US) Yep, 13-3/4" x 17" Yamaha Painted Stainless Steel prop. An oldie but a goodie, just not a very good application on your boat. quote: ...it appears to have been reconditioned a few times... Yep, that explains the lack of paint and the helps explain the poor performance. The motor mounting height sounds good. I recommend you try a 15-1/2" x 17" Mercury Mirageplus, 15-1/4" x 17" Yamaha Saltwater Series, 15-1/4" x 17" PowerTech OFS4 or a 14-5/8" x 18" Mercury Enertia propeller--for starters.
jimh	posted 03-17-2010 08:27 AM ET (US) On a 22-foot Boston Whaler hull with 225-HP the top speed should be above 40-MPH with light load. Speed is affected by boat weight. When my boat was heavily loaded the top speed dropped to about 38-MPH with an older 225-HP engine.
Cooter01	posted 03-18-2010 06:47 AM ET (US) [This article was originally posted in all-capital letters. That style was used on old teletypewriters which lacked an upper or lower case because they used a Baudot 7-bit coding. However, here we use a full alphabet, and posting in ALL CAPS looks like something from a 1930's Western Union telegram.--jimh] Thank you. I want to start with a known good propeller to make some valid comparisons
BQUICK	posted 03-22-2010 02:39 PM ET (US) Why not just try the same prop in a 19? Should lower rpms to 5400-5500 and pick up 3-5 mph. However, it is possible that the pitch of your "17" was changed when reconditioned.
BQUICK	posted 03-22-2010 02:41 PM ET (US) Also, 5900 is when the rev limiter cuts in so that might be limiting it.
jimh	posted 03-22-2010 09:37 PM ET (US) The process of making valid comparisons does not depend on starting with a particular propeller. To make valid performance comparisons you just have to minimize the influence of variables other than the propeller being tested. All comparisons have to begin with some baseline data. Why not just start with the propeller you have now?
number9	posted 03-22-2010 11:38 PM ET (US) By definition a baseline as we most conjure up thoughts of would have a value of average or numerically using zero to help represent +&-. The current prop apparently is already way south of baseline due to it's small diameter, motor, boat and reported performance.
jimh	posted 03-23-2010 08:39 AM ET (US) number9 proposes that the definition of "baseline" is: "By definition a baseline...would have a value of average...." The definition of baseline is much simpler; see number five below: base·line Function: noun 1 : a line serving as a basis; especially : one of known measure or position used (as in surveying or navigation) to calculate or locate something 2 a : either of the lines on a baseball field that lead from home plate to first base and third base and are extended into the outfield as foul lines b : base path 3 : a boundary line at either end of a court (as in tennis or basketball) 4 : a usually initial set of critical observations or data used for comparison or a control 5 : a starting point <the baseline of this discussion> Cf.: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baseline In any case, propeller testing is not an additive process. The results of one test do not influence the outcome of the next test, so the order in which propellers are tested is not significant. The data for propeller performance can be collected in any order, as long as the process is controlled for influence of other variables. One does not have to wait to begin collecting data until one has a special propeller which will have the average characteristics of the data set of the whole range of tested propellers. Indeed, the average of the propellers to be tested can't be known until after they are tested. If the average were known before the tests began, what would be the point of testing?