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Author Topic:   Cost of Routine Maintenance

jimh posted 10-14-2010 09:01 AM ET (US)
Here is a calculator published by Evinrude which calculates the cost of maintenance of their E-TEC engines compared to other brands and types:
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Tools/Maintenance-Calculator
As one might expect, the calculator shows the E-TEC engine maintenance costs are less than competitor engines.
Tohsgib posted 10-14-2010 11:30 AM ET (US)
What are they maintaining those engines with...platinum? Considering I have owned and maintained my engine for 4 years(not 3), I can tell you my costs are LESS by about 50% of what it says it would cost to maintain an E-TEC. Lastly they should show the cost of oil at MSRP to run the E-TEC over that period to make it a more level playing field. I would LOVE to have a salesman show me that crap to try and sell me an engine, he would not be able to sit correctly for a week.
Buckda posted 10-14-2010 11:46 AM ET (US)
I think people should take ANYTHING that comes from a company's marketing department with a grain of salt.
Usually, there is some grain of truth in the claim, when viewed from a specific perspective. Your job, as a consumer, is to figure out the whole truth.
As Nick points out, the big drawback to operating a DFI engine is that you must purchase and add lubricating oil to an oil tank. The big drawback to operating a 4-stroke is that you must change and dispose of old oil and filters.
What we need to do is identify a pool of willing participants who can provide us with real world data.
Apparently, we'll never get that, since it's been a request for several years.
Tohsgib posted 10-14-2010 12:01 PM ET (US)
I know BRP is doing what they can to get sales, at least they do not pick and choose their lies like Mercury brochures.
Tom W Clark posted 10-14-2010 12:12 PM ET (US)
I agree that this new Evinrude advertisement in neither original nor impressive.
Year world data point: I spent $472.76 on two stroke oil in the last year.
Peter posted 10-14-2010 01:03 PM ET (US)
The comparison is based on a dealer performing all of the scheduled maintenance per the operating manual. It does not compare E-TEC maintenance costs to DYIer's efforts. DYIers NEVER EVER seem to factor in the value of their time (lost opportunity cost) when computing the cost of their maintenance.
contender posted 10-14-2010 01:40 PM ET (US)
Are not the first couple of years(5 for Evinrude depending on when you purchase) for free anyway under warranty?
Tohsgib posted 10-14-2010 03:28 PM ET (US)
Not if you don't add oil ;)
Their ad is like comparing sailboat costs to powerboats without taking in the price of new sails every so many years.
Tohsgib posted 10-14-2010 03:32 PM ET (US)
Lastly my dealer gets $249 for the 100 hour maintenance so in 3 years it would be $750. How do they get $2300? Water pumps, etc are all the same across the board as everyone should change theirs every 3 years. As far as the valve statement goes...your car owner's manual says the same thing, do you EVER have your valves checked in your car? Suzukis have timing chains so please don't throw in the belt cost either.
L H G posted 10-14-2010 04:08 PM ET (US)
That's the most ridiculous data I have ever seen. Engine
maintenance is measured in hours, not years. What's a year? 50 hours or 1000 hours?
It shows twin Evinrude 200's requiring $1,500 in maintenance over 3 years. I spend a fraction of that on my twin Mercury 200 EFI's maintenance AND repairs over a 3 year period. That's more like a ten year expense for me, so I guess the EFI's are much less to maintain that E-TEC. Why not - they just run, and run and run. The oil is less than half the cost, which means I can use twice as much. With 13 years on them, still no reason to spend a fortune re-powering to Optimax.
Peter posted 10-14-2010 04:11 PM ET (US)
How about inspect/replace the internal zincs that are on a 4-stroke powerhead?
On another website, recently, there were facinating pictures posted by a DIYer of his effort to replace the internal zinc anodes on his 4-stroke V6 outboard. Basically, the effort required some minor disassembly of the powerhead components and removal of the exhaust manifolds to replace the 10 dollar zinc anodes. The internal zincs could not be inspected without this partial tear down. The factory specified maintenance interval for inspection and replacement of these internal anodes is every 2 years! Until recently, the factory did not provide any information in the owner's manual that these hard to access items need to be inspected and replaced! Many of the early adopters of these 4-strokes have had no clue that the internal anodes existed and have never inspected or replaced them!
Another brand suggests that some internal anodes that require minor disassembly must be inspected/replaced every year and that there are other more difficult internal anodes that must be replaced when major service is done, but they don't even specify when the major service is required.
The comparison to automobile engines remains facinating. When was the last time anyone ran their auto engine up a hill at 4500 RPM for an hour straight? I'll further bet that the total amount of fuel consumed per hour by an auto engine of equal HP to an outboard engine is less than 1/2 that used by the outboard engine. When was the last time an automobile engine had to have internal zinc anodes inspected? Do they even have internal zinc anodes?
Maintenance differences between 2 and 4-stroke outboard motors are not just the difference between adding oil versus changing oil.
jimh posted 10-14-2010 04:44 PM ET (US)
If labor costs are reduced to zero, then labor-intensive engines will benefit in a comparison to engines which are not labor intensive.
As long as we are having a free for all of anecdotal data, I can say that so far I have spent zero on maintenance of my E-TEC. There has been no scheduled maintenance to perform, and I have not performed any.
I will start a new thread so the many who have anecdotal data about their operating costs will have a place to attest to them.
Peter posted 10-18-2010 10:23 AM ET (US)
As noted above, when comparing 2-stroke to 4-stroke outboard maintenance, I like to focus on internal engine block anode replacement, which apparently requires partial disassembly.
In looking at Yamaha's operator manual for their newly launched V6 4-stroke outboards, I noted that the manual says that the exhaust passage anode should be inspected/replaced every 100 hours (this is a dealer task according to the manual). It goes on further to specify that the cylinder head anodes, cylinder block anodes, cylinder block thermostat portion anodes, oil cooler anodes and exhaust guide anodes should be replaced at 500 hours or 5 years. That is also a dealer task and it is not inspect/replace, it is REPLACE and I suspect that the reason for that is it requires partial disassembly to get to these anodes and so if you are required to diassemble to inspect, you might as well replace. I took a look at the service parts diagram and counted 18 anodes touching upon the engine block. I am well over 500 hours and 5 years on my 2002 Evinrude 225s and there is no such engine block anode service called for in the operator manual. If these were the new Yamaha 4-stroke 225s at the 500 hour mark, how much would this service cost in parts and labor?If each of the 18 anodes cost $5.00 a piece on average, then it would appear that there is nearly $100 worth of parts before labor.

Also, I noted in the Yamaha operator manual that the water pump replacement interval for these new Yamahas is now specified at 300 hours or 3 years. That's up from 1 year or 200 hours for their prior generation V6 4-strokes. Why is there no E-TEC type outrage over the fact that Yamaha now specifies 300 hours between water pump replacement for these new V6 4-stroke motors? When Evinrude leads the way on this maintenance item its outrageous but when Yamaha matches, no one raises an eyebrow. Too funny.
Keeper posted 10-18-2010 10:57 AM ET (US)
This topic should be posted in the 'General' forum.
Buckda posted 10-18-2010 11:19 AM ET (US)
Just as I take everything generated from a marketing department with a grain of salt, I also take service recommendations with a grain of salt. I realize that all engines need regular service to remain in top operating condition. Most important is the quality and condition of lubricants.
However, realize that there is a strong lobby present in the halls of a manufacturer. That lobby is of the dealership network that sells and, more importantly to those dealerships, services the motors after sale.
Here's my take on the service recommendations: if you plan to keep your vehicle until it is fit for the boneyard, you should probably follow the recommended service intervals. If you plan to keep it for 200K miles or less, you should take careful note of the service intervals and use discretion in carrying out service. If you plan to keep your car for less than 100K miles, you should probably just change the oil and other fluids at regular intervals...and inspect the tires and brakes and windshield wipers. With proper attention, most new vehicles will make it 100K miles with minimal attention. They will be worth less than better maintained vehicles - but they will make it.
I think the same is true for outboards....let's use 1,000 hours instead of 100K miles.
Perhaps the most important thing, in my mind, is that you do the maintenance you feel is necessary to be comfortable on the water. You do this with the solemn understanding of your responsibility to your own safety and that of your passengers, taking into consideration the environment in which you operate the boat.

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Author	Topic: Cost of Routine Maintenance
jimh	posted 10-14-2010 09:01 AM ET (US) Here is a calculator published by Evinrude which calculates the cost of maintenance of their E-TEC engines compared to other brands and types: http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Tools/Maintenance-Calculator As one might expect, the calculator shows the E-TEC engine maintenance costs are less than competitor engines.
Tohsgib	posted 10-14-2010 11:30 AM ET (US) What are they maintaining those engines with...platinum? Considering I have owned and maintained my engine for 4 years(not 3), I can tell you my costs are LESS by about 50% of what it says it would cost to maintain an E-TEC. Lastly they should show the cost of oil at MSRP to run the E-TEC over that period to make it a more level playing field. I would LOVE to have a salesman show me that crap to try and sell me an engine, he would not be able to sit correctly for a week.
Buckda	posted 10-14-2010 11:46 AM ET (US) I think people should take ANYTHING that comes from a company's marketing department with a grain of salt. Usually, there is some grain of truth in the claim, when viewed from a specific perspective. Your job, as a consumer, is to figure out the whole truth. As Nick points out, the big drawback to operating a DFI engine is that you must purchase and add lubricating oil to an oil tank. The big drawback to operating a 4-stroke is that you must change and dispose of old oil and filters. What we need to do is identify a pool of willing participants who can provide us with real world data. Apparently, we'll never get that, since it's been a request for several years.
Tohsgib	posted 10-14-2010 12:01 PM ET (US) I know BRP is doing what they can to get sales, at least they do not pick and choose their lies like Mercury brochures.
Tom W Clark	posted 10-14-2010 12:12 PM ET (US) I agree that this new Evinrude advertisement in neither original nor impressive. Year world data point: I spent $472.76 on two stroke oil in the last year.
Peter	posted 10-14-2010 01:03 PM ET (US) The comparison is based on a dealer performing all of the scheduled maintenance per the operating manual. It does not compare E-TEC maintenance costs to DYIer's efforts. DYIers NEVER EVER seem to factor in the value of their time (lost opportunity cost) when computing the cost of their maintenance.
contender	posted 10-14-2010 01:40 PM ET (US) Are not the first couple of years(5 for Evinrude depending on when you purchase) for free anyway under warranty?
Tohsgib	posted 10-14-2010 03:28 PM ET (US) Not if you don't add oil ;) Their ad is like comparing sailboat costs to powerboats without taking in the price of new sails every so many years.
Tohsgib	posted 10-14-2010 03:32 PM ET (US) Lastly my dealer gets $249 for the 100 hour maintenance so in 3 years it would be $750. How do they get $2300? Water pumps, etc are all the same across the board as everyone should change theirs every 3 years. As far as the valve statement goes...your car owner's manual says the same thing, do you EVER have your valves checked in your car? Suzukis have timing chains so please don't throw in the belt cost either.
L H G	posted 10-14-2010 04:08 PM ET (US) That's the most ridiculous data I have ever seen. Engine maintenance is measured in hours, not years. What's a year? 50 hours or 1000 hours? It shows twin Evinrude 200's requiring $1,500 in maintenance over 3 years. I spend a fraction of that on my twin Mercury 200 EFI's maintenance AND repairs over a 3 year period. That's more like a ten year expense for me, so I guess the EFI's are much less to maintain that E-TEC. Why not - they just run, and run and run. The oil is less than half the cost, which means I can use twice as much. With 13 years on them, still no reason to spend a fortune re-powering to Optimax.
Peter	posted 10-14-2010 04:11 PM ET (US) How about inspect/replace the internal zincs that are on a 4-stroke powerhead? On another website, recently, there were facinating pictures posted by a DIYer of his effort to replace the internal zinc anodes on his 4-stroke V6 outboard. Basically, the effort required some minor disassembly of the powerhead components and removal of the exhaust manifolds to replace the 10 dollar zinc anodes. The internal zincs could not be inspected without this partial tear down. The factory specified maintenance interval for inspection and replacement of these internal anodes is every 2 years! Until recently, the factory did not provide any information in the owner's manual that these hard to access items need to be inspected and replaced! Many of the early adopters of these 4-strokes have had no clue that the internal anodes existed and have never inspected or replaced them! Another brand suggests that some internal anodes that require minor disassembly must be inspected/replaced every year and that there are other more difficult internal anodes that must be replaced when major service is done, but they don't even specify when the major service is required. The comparison to automobile engines remains facinating. When was the last time anyone ran their auto engine up a hill at 4500 RPM for an hour straight? I'll further bet that the total amount of fuel consumed per hour by an auto engine of equal HP to an outboard engine is less than 1/2 that used by the outboard engine. When was the last time an automobile engine had to have internal zinc anodes inspected? Do they even have internal zinc anodes? Maintenance differences between 2 and 4-stroke outboard motors are not just the difference between adding oil versus changing oil.
jimh	posted 10-14-2010 04:44 PM ET (US) If labor costs are reduced to zero, then labor-intensive engines will benefit in a comparison to engines which are not labor intensive. As long as we are having a free for all of anecdotal data, I can say that so far I have spent zero on maintenance of my E-TEC. There has been no scheduled maintenance to perform, and I have not performed any. I will start a new thread so the many who have anecdotal data about their operating costs will have a place to attest to them.
Peter	posted 10-18-2010 10:23 AM ET (US) As noted above, when comparing 2-stroke to 4-stroke outboard maintenance, I like to focus on internal engine block anode replacement, which apparently requires partial disassembly. In looking at Yamaha's operator manual for their newly launched V6 4-stroke outboards, I noted that the manual says that the exhaust passage anode should be inspected/replaced every 100 hours (this is a dealer task according to the manual). It goes on further to specify that the cylinder head anodes, cylinder block anodes, cylinder block thermostat portion anodes, oil cooler anodes and exhaust guide anodes should be replaced at 500 hours or 5 years. That is also a dealer task and it is not inspect/replace, it is REPLACE and I suspect that the reason for that is it requires partial disassembly to get to these anodes and so if you are required to diassemble to inspect, you might as well replace. I took a look at the service parts diagram and counted 18 anodes touching upon the engine block. I am well over 500 hours and 5 years on my 2002 Evinrude 225s and there is no such engine block anode service called for in the operator manual. If these were the new Yamaha 4-stroke 225s at the 500 hour mark, how much would this service cost in parts and labor?If each of the 18 anodes cost $5.00 a piece on average, then it would appear that there is nearly $100 worth of parts before labor. Also, I noted in the Yamaha operator manual that the water pump replacement interval for these new Yamahas is now specified at 300 hours or 3 years. That's up from 1 year or 200 hours for their prior generation V6 4-strokes. Why is there no E-TEC type outrage over the fact that Yamaha now specifies 300 hours between water pump replacement for these new V6 4-stroke motors? When Evinrude leads the way on this maintenance item its outrageous but when Yamaha matches, no one raises an eyebrow. Too funny.
Keeper	posted 10-18-2010 10:57 AM ET (US) This topic should be posted in the 'General' forum.
Buckda	posted 10-18-2010 11:19 AM ET (US) Just as I take everything generated from a marketing department with a grain of salt, I also take service recommendations with a grain of salt. I realize that all engines need regular service to remain in top operating condition. Most important is the quality and condition of lubricants. However, realize that there is a strong lobby present in the halls of a manufacturer. That lobby is of the dealership network that sells and, more importantly to those dealerships, services the motors after sale. Here's my take on the service recommendations: if you plan to keep your vehicle until it is fit for the boneyard, you should probably follow the recommended service intervals. If you plan to keep it for 200K miles or less, you should take careful note of the service intervals and use discretion in carrying out service. If you plan to keep your car for less than 100K miles, you should probably just change the oil and other fluids at regular intervals...and inspect the tires and brakes and windshield wipers. With proper attention, most new vehicles will make it 100K miles with minimal attention. They will be worth less than better maintained vehicles - but they will make it. I think the same is true for outboards....let's use 1,000 hours instead of 100K miles. Perhaps the most important thing, in my mind, is that you do the maintenance you feel is necessary to be comfortable on the water. You do this with the solemn understanding of your responsibility to your own safety and that of your passengers, taking into consideration the environment in which you operate the boat.