Max HP a reasonable person would put on a 25' Outrage

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Buckda posted 02-09-2011 03:27 PM ET (US)
I know, the rated HP is 300.
I also have a lead on a pair of running 250 FICHT's for a reasonable price...which I'm not really seriously considering...yet.
LHG has 400 HP on his Outrage 25. In keeping my eyes open for some good deals, I'm interested in your opinions on the matter.
I would guess that the 250's are XL shaft anyway, so they won't fit my needs...but I'm not opposed to scalping a pair of running FICHT motors for cheap to replace the Johnsons that are currently on the boat.
So - is 400 the max? 450?
By the way, if you're interested in these motors, he's willing to part them out: http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/2159537696.html
Dave
Tom W Clark posted 02-09-2011 03:39 PM ET (US)
450 HP.
This is what the Guardians with the reinforced 30" transom were rated for.
Tom W Clark posted 02-09-2011 03:44 PM ET (US)
How fast do you need to go Dave?
One of those 250s would be ideal for your boat (in my opinion) and be good for 46-47 MPH and 3 MPG.
I know you want twins so that would not work *for you*, but going back to another thread you described your own boat's performance with twin 130s as "...a little dull"
How so?
Buckda posted 02-09-2011 03:45 PM ET (US)
Thanks Tom -
We're entering "repower season" and I'm planning to keep my eyes open for some possible deals. If I can pick up a pair of motors for $5-6K in good shape, and sell mine for $2,000-$2,500 all in, I can swing that and think it would be a reasonable upgrade for performance and fuel efficiency.
Buckda posted 02-09-2011 03:52 PM ET (US)
Tom -
With twin 130's, the boat accelerates slowly and I feel like I'm whipping the engines to get the hull happy - what I mean by that is that there is a point - about 30 MPH where the hull lifts further out of the water and "feels right". To get there, I'm turning 4,200 RPM +.
The boat maxes out around 38-42 MPH, if I recall correctly.
I do realize I have setup problems and will work to correct that to see if there is improvement.
The first improvement will be to fix the bottom paint - it's rough and peeling/flaking. The next is to raise the motors so they are at a more optimum height. The third would be to take the performance numbers once those improvements are done and consider another set of propellers.
But one thing is certain, the old Carburated motors will never be able to match the overall fuel efficiency of a DFI - especially through no-wake zones.
I really would prefer twins for a lot of reasons. I think that twin 250's would definitely be too much, but twin 225's or 200's would really make the boat sing. I'm really more interested in twin 150's or 175's, which I think would be adequate and provide a sound combination of weight, speed and power for when you need it without going overboard.
Buckda posted 02-09-2011 03:58 PM ET (US)
I've pulled my log books from Isle Royale last summer - the economy was 1.5 - 1.6 MPG as measured on GPS statute miles vs. fuel consumed.
I think I had similar numbers on the Lake Michigan crossing last summer as well.
Compare that to a completely different boat and motor combination (the 18 with twin 90's) when I was seeing and average overall fuel economy of 4.3-4.7 MPG using the same methods of measure.
I don't expect to see 4.3 MPG on my 25 except perhaps when idling with a new technology motor.
...but 2.7-3.5 would be nice, and would make a huge dent in my fuel budget.
Tom W Clark posted 02-09-2011 04:15 PM ET (US)
Well, I would caution you to make the three adjustments (bottom paint, engine height, props) to your boat and then see how it performs before you decide you don't like the 130s.
I keep coming back to my own boat and George Fisher's boat. We both have Revenge 25 Walk Through with full canvas and RADAR arch. Our boats should weigh more than yours and be less aerodynamic.
Yet with my twin 150 (old 1989 models) I can get 2.3 MPH at cruise and go as fast as 47-48 MPH, which I never do except during testing. It will leap on plane if I give it full throttle, again, something I never do because it throws my passengers back.
Because I have studied so many propellers and taken so many measurements I am well are that to get 2.3 MPG I have to run the boat where the motors are happy, between 4000-4500 RPM. I typically cruise at 4200 RPM. Anything less than this and the motors are not happy and my fuel mileage goes down.
4200 RPM is 35 MPH in my boat and that is uncomfortable in a chop. I have often thought it would be better with a pair of Mercury 135s which are the same motor, but detuned. I would have to use a shorter pitch but would cruise at the same RPM and at a more comfortable sped and get better fuel mileage.
George Fisher's boat had exactly that motor combination before he repowered his with a single E-TEC 250. That boat can go 46.5 MPH and get 3 MPG. Read our test result here:
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006397.html
While I grant you that idle speed cruise is where you get a huge increase in economy with a DFI, the other performance aspects of 130s are being grossly suppressed by their current rigging.
Overpowering your boat might be fun when it comes to see how fast it will go, it will not get better fuel economy, it will get worse, unless you want to drive it very, very fast.
If you really want to repower, I wouldn't look for anything more than 150s.
Moby Dick posted 02-09-2011 05:11 PM ET (US)
Dave........Are we talking a reasonable person or you? For you, I think you'd want a pair of 175's. This would give you all the speed you'd want. I would think anything bigger would drink more fuel at a reasonable (not you) cruising speed.
Buckda posted 02-09-2011 05:14 PM ET (US)
I'm a very reasonable man. I have reasons for all the crazy things I do.
They just don't make sense to everyone.
I'll probably take Tom's advice to heart and make changes this year and evaluate. I just found it interesting that for short money, it appears there are a lot of people swapping out engines if you're patient and willing to travel to pick up the motors.
Right now I have the time on my hands to do such a project.
Peter posted 02-10-2011 08:47 AM ET (US)
The 3.3L Ficht 225/250s are very strong motors. I've got a pair of these on my Whaler 27 WD. A pair of those on an Outrage 25 Cuddy (assuming proper shaft length) would be overkill. That 27 Offshore which they are mounted on is easily a 50 MPH boat with those motors.
Also, they are 25 inch shafts which won't work for you.
Even with the wrong shaft length (just like the 130s), these motors would provide better overall fuel economy than your 130s. But it wouldn't be worth the $6500+ spent to get it.
Buckda posted 02-10-2011 09:47 AM ET (US)
Agreed.
On a lark, yesterday I just did a national Craigslist search for "pair of FICHT Motors" and this came up, along with a set of 200's in Florida.
I realize that these are the 25' Shafts, and I believe the 200's advertised are as well.
...but it's nice to know that they're out there, which means that others will be out there as well.
The net expenditure wouldn't be $6,500 - it would be $6,500 minus the sale price for my 130's.
Just keeping my options open right now. I'm definitely going to lift these 130's to see what happens before I go spending thousands of dollars on a *different* set of used motors.
I jut don't have the ~$30,000 that it would take to replace the whole rig with new E-TEC's, gauges and controls in the short term.
I have started a fund for them though. If you'd like to donate, contact me via e-mail. :)
russellbailey posted 02-10-2011 10:18 AM ET (US)
It has been amazing to me how easily the Outrage 25 hull goes fast. Mine will run very close to 50 with the twin Optimax 150s and loaded, and except for the increased force of the wind it feels like maybe 25 in our Striper 15 - the big hull is very stable and does not feel at all skittish at 50, and from what I recall LHG does not feel skittish with his in the low 60s. So, I would think that would probably not have to worry about going too fast.
I would be cautious of weight. The twin Optimax 150s result in a lot of weight on the transom - it is ok but I'd not want to go up another 200 lbs. I realize you have a cuddy to offset some of that versus my open hull.
Looking at Evinrude, it looks like if you stayed with the 2.6L block (up to 200 hp) would be comparable. For me those 3.3L Evinrude 250s would be too heavy to use as twins.
So, in my opinion, you are really not constrained by HP, but instead by weight.
Lastly, will you find any pairs with 20" shafts? Not likely - seems like the 5" CMC vertical extension would get the height you need and open up your twin options inexpensively.
Tom W Clark posted 02-10-2011 10:37 AM ET (US)
Russell makes a good point. While the boat is designed for twin 20" shaft length motors, if repowereing, I would only be looking at a pair of 25" shaft length motors for a few reasons:
- Most 20" shaft length motors are only made in standard rotation and the benefits of the counter rotating twins are great enough that that alone would make me want them.
- It will be much easier of find a pair of used 25" shaft length motors because that is the shaft length most commonly used for twins.
- It gets the power heads above the water more and they will be splashed less often.
- You'll have better geacase clearance above the water
Given that the current motors are already 25" shaft length, I'd be inclined to make a more permanent investment in jackplates, brackets or whatever you decide on.
I also would not rule out building up the transom to a 30" height.
Peter posted 02-10-2011 10:55 AM ET (US)
The 3.3L V6 Ficht/DIs are about 530 lbs each. You'd have almost 1100 lbs back there versus about 750 lbs you currently have.
Peter posted 02-10-2011 10:58 AM ET (US)
I'd be on the lookout for a pair of good condition 2002+ Evinrude 150/175 Ficht/DIs. Except for adding a return oil line to the oil tanks, they should be pretty much a bolt on.
DeeVee posted 02-10-2011 11:39 PM ET (US)
My brother in law's 25 Outrage will just break 50 with the old single Cosworth block Mercury 275. It seems to be plenty of power.
TC posted 02-20-2011 11:33 PM ET (US)
I would go twin 200's. I like "overpowered' boats.

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Author	Topic: Max HP a reasonable person would put on a 25' Outrage
Buckda	posted 02-09-2011 03:27 PM ET (US) I know, the rated HP is 300. I also have a lead on a pair of running 250 FICHT's for a reasonable price...which I'm not really seriously considering...yet. LHG has 400 HP on his Outrage 25. In keeping my eyes open for some good deals, I'm interested in your opinions on the matter. I would guess that the 250's are XL shaft anyway, so they won't fit my needs...but I'm not opposed to scalping a pair of running FICHT motors for cheap to replace the Johnsons that are currently on the boat. So - is 400 the max? 450? By the way, if you're interested in these motors, he's willing to part them out: http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/2159537696.html Dave
Tom W Clark	posted 02-09-2011 03:39 PM ET (US) 450 HP. This is what the Guardians with the reinforced 30" transom were rated for.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-09-2011 03:44 PM ET (US) How fast do you need to go Dave? One of those 250s would be ideal for your boat (in my opinion) and be good for 46-47 MPH and 3 MPG. I know you want twins so that would not work for you, but going back to another thread you described your own boat's performance with twin 130s as "...a little dull" How so?
Buckda	posted 02-09-2011 03:45 PM ET (US) Thanks Tom - We're entering "repower season" and I'm planning to keep my eyes open for some possible deals. If I can pick up a pair of motors for $5-6K in good shape, and sell mine for $2,000-$2,500 all in, I can swing that and think it would be a reasonable upgrade for performance and fuel efficiency.
Buckda	posted 02-09-2011 03:52 PM ET (US) Tom - With twin 130's, the boat accelerates slowly and I feel like I'm whipping the engines to get the hull happy - what I mean by that is that there is a point - about 30 MPH where the hull lifts further out of the water and "feels right". To get there, I'm turning 4,200 RPM +. The boat maxes out around 38-42 MPH, if I recall correctly. I do realize I have setup problems and will work to correct that to see if there is improvement. The first improvement will be to fix the bottom paint - it's rough and peeling/flaking. The next is to raise the motors so they are at a more optimum height. The third would be to take the performance numbers once those improvements are done and consider another set of propellers. But one thing is certain, the old Carburated motors will never be able to match the overall fuel efficiency of a DFI - especially through no-wake zones. I really would prefer twins for a lot of reasons. I think that twin 250's would definitely be too much, but twin 225's or 200's would really make the boat sing. I'm really more interested in twin 150's or 175's, which I think would be adequate and provide a sound combination of weight, speed and power for when you need it without going overboard.
Buckda	posted 02-09-2011 03:58 PM ET (US) I've pulled my log books from Isle Royale last summer - the economy was 1.5 - 1.6 MPG as measured on GPS statute miles vs. fuel consumed. I think I had similar numbers on the Lake Michigan crossing last summer as well. Compare that to a completely different boat and motor combination (the 18 with twin 90's) when I was seeing and average overall fuel economy of 4.3-4.7 MPG using the same methods of measure. I don't expect to see 4.3 MPG on my 25 except perhaps when idling with a new technology motor. ...but 2.7-3.5 would be nice, and would make a huge dent in my fuel budget.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-09-2011 04:15 PM ET (US) Well, I would caution you to make the three adjustments (bottom paint, engine height, props) to your boat and then see how it performs before you decide you don't like the 130s. I keep coming back to my own boat and George Fisher's boat. We both have Revenge 25 Walk Through with full canvas and RADAR arch. Our boats should weigh more than yours and be less aerodynamic. Yet with my twin 150 (old 1989 models) I can get 2.3 MPH at cruise and go as fast as 47-48 MPH, which I never do except during testing. It will leap on plane if I give it full throttle, again, something I never do because it throws my passengers back. Because I have studied so many propellers and taken so many measurements I am well are that to get 2.3 MPG I have to run the boat where the motors are happy, between 4000-4500 RPM. I typically cruise at 4200 RPM. Anything less than this and the motors are not happy and my fuel mileage goes down. 4200 RPM is 35 MPH in my boat and that is uncomfortable in a chop. I have often thought it would be better with a pair of Mercury 135s which are the same motor, but detuned. I would have to use a shorter pitch but would cruise at the same RPM and at a more comfortable sped and get better fuel mileage. George Fisher's boat had exactly that motor combination before he repowered his with a single E-TEC 250. That boat can go 46.5 MPH and get 3 MPG. Read our test result here: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006397.html While I grant you that idle speed cruise is where you get a huge increase in economy with a DFI, the other performance aspects of 130s are being grossly suppressed by their current rigging. Overpowering your boat might be fun when it comes to see how fast it will go, it will not get better fuel economy, it will get worse, unless you want to drive it very, very fast. If you really want to repower, I wouldn't look for anything more than 150s.
Moby Dick	posted 02-09-2011 05:11 PM ET (US) Dave........Are we talking a reasonable person or you? For you, I think you'd want a pair of 175's. This would give you all the speed you'd want. I would think anything bigger would drink more fuel at a reasonable (not you) cruising speed.
Buckda	posted 02-09-2011 05:14 PM ET (US) I'm a very reasonable man. I have reasons for all the crazy things I do. They just don't make sense to everyone. I'll probably take Tom's advice to heart and make changes this year and evaluate. I just found it interesting that for short money, it appears there are a lot of people swapping out engines if you're patient and willing to travel to pick up the motors. Right now I have the time on my hands to do such a project.
Peter	posted 02-10-2011 08:47 AM ET (US) The 3.3L Ficht 225/250s are very strong motors. I've got a pair of these on my Whaler 27 WD. A pair of those on an Outrage 25 Cuddy (assuming proper shaft length) would be overkill. That 27 Offshore which they are mounted on is easily a 50 MPH boat with those motors. Also, they are 25 inch shafts which won't work for you. Even with the wrong shaft length (just like the 130s), these motors would provide better overall fuel economy than your 130s. But it wouldn't be worth the $6500+ spent to get it.
Buckda	posted 02-10-2011 09:47 AM ET (US) Agreed. On a lark, yesterday I just did a national Craigslist search for "pair of FICHT Motors" and this came up, along with a set of 200's in Florida. I realize that these are the 25' Shafts, and I believe the 200's advertised are as well. ...but it's nice to know that they're out there, which means that others will be out there as well. The net expenditure wouldn't be $6,500 - it would be $6,500 minus the sale price for my 130's. Just keeping my options open right now. I'm definitely going to lift these 130's to see what happens before I go spending thousands of dollars on a different set of used motors. I jut don't have the ~$30,000 that it would take to replace the whole rig with new E-TEC's, gauges and controls in the short term. I have started a fund for them though. If you'd like to donate, contact me via e-mail. :)
russellbailey	posted 02-10-2011 10:18 AM ET (US) It has been amazing to me how easily the Outrage 25 hull goes fast. Mine will run very close to 50 with the twin Optimax 150s and loaded, and except for the increased force of the wind it feels like maybe 25 in our Striper 15 - the big hull is very stable and does not feel at all skittish at 50, and from what I recall LHG does not feel skittish with his in the low 60s. So, I would think that would probably not have to worry about going too fast. I would be cautious of weight. The twin Optimax 150s result in a lot of weight on the transom - it is ok but I'd not want to go up another 200 lbs. I realize you have a cuddy to offset some of that versus my open hull. Looking at Evinrude, it looks like if you stayed with the 2.6L block (up to 200 hp) would be comparable. For me those 3.3L Evinrude 250s would be too heavy to use as twins. So, in my opinion, you are really not constrained by HP, but instead by weight. Lastly, will you find any pairs with 20" shafts? Not likely - seems like the 5" CMC vertical extension would get the height you need and open up your twin options inexpensively.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-10-2011 10:37 AM ET (US) Russell makes a good point. While the boat is designed for twin 20" shaft length motors, if repowereing, I would only be looking at a pair of 25" shaft length motors for a few reasons: - Most 20" shaft length motors are only made in standard rotation and the benefits of the counter rotating twins are great enough that that alone would make me want them. - It will be much easier of find a pair of used 25" shaft length motors because that is the shaft length most commonly used for twins. - It gets the power heads above the water more and they will be splashed less often. - You'll have better geacase clearance above the water Given that the current motors are already 25" shaft length, I'd be inclined to make a more permanent investment in jackplates, brackets or whatever you decide on. I also would not rule out building up the transom to a 30" height.
Peter	posted 02-10-2011 10:55 AM ET (US) The 3.3L V6 Ficht/DIs are about 530 lbs each. You'd have almost 1100 lbs back there versus about 750 lbs you currently have.
Peter	posted 02-10-2011 10:58 AM ET (US) I'd be on the lookout for a pair of good condition 2002+ Evinrude 150/175 Ficht/DIs. Except for adding a return oil line to the oil tanks, they should be pretty much a bolt on.
DeeVee	posted 02-10-2011 11:39 PM ET (US) My brother in law's 25 Outrage will just break 50 with the old single Cosworth block Mercury 275. It seems to be plenty of power.
TC	posted 02-20-2011 11:33 PM ET (US) I would go twin 200's. I like "overpowered' boats.